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+--- Thread: Considering building a new computer (/showthread.php?tid=10975)
Considering building a new computer - Jinx999 - 04-14-2011
My current computer is showing its age (Single Core Athlon 3500 processor) is occasionally quirky and is running out of hard drive space. I'm considering building a new one. I'd like some expert opinion and advice about my proposed build.
Please note, the capabilities of this are already probably grossly in excess of what I'm going to be using it for. I only rarely play computer games and don't need to run the latest monster of a game at 400 fps.
I am intested in any advice about incompatabilites, weaknesses, overkill, item X meaning I can't use the full capabilities of item Y or obvious things I've missed.
Processor: Intel Sandybridge i5-2500
Motherboard: Gigabyte SKT-1155 H67M-UD2H-B3
Memory: Corsair CMX4GX3M2A1600C9 2 x 2GB DDR3 SDRAM (should I get 8GB?)
Graphics Card: Sapphire RADEON HD 5770
Monitor: Samsung P2450H 24-inch Widescreen Full HD 1920 x 1080p
Program Disk: Seagate OEM 500GB Barracuda 3.5 inch 7200.12
Data File Disk: Seagate Barracuda Low Power Hard Drive, 2 TB, SATA, 5900 RPM, 32MB Cache
2 Sata Cables to connect Hard Disks.
Case: Elite 330 Mid Tower Chassis
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium, Full Version (PC DVD)
Power Supply: CiT 750W Power Supply Unit with PSU and Dual 12V Rails
DVD Drive: Samsung SH-S223C 22x SATA DVD RW
Keyboard and Mouse: Logitech Wireless Desktop Mk300
Any useful advice would be gratefully recieved.
- Dartz - 04-14-2011
Seems alright. I think the Core i series of processors work well with three matched sticks of RAM.... but the only time I've ever come close to using the 4GB on my laptop have been running a bunch of VM's on it, so it's much of a muchness.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?
- Foxboy - 04-14-2011
FWIW, I steered away from a Sandybridge Mobo when I built my own in March, as there was some sort of hardware error with it, not living up to expectations. That may be cleared up now, however.
4 gig memory with my other set-up gives a functional computer, able to Multitask City of Heroes, 12 tabs on Firefox and Winamp chugging a 100+ hour playlist. Besides, you can add in the other 4 gig later, as I plan to after I get my car roadworthy, etc.
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''
-- James Nicoll
- jpub - 04-15-2011
I'd go to 8GB, personally. Also check if Sandybridge is Dual Channel or Tri. In the 1156/1366 generation, only the 1366 was Tri-channel. Sandybridge is 1155, so I'd bet Dual Channel.
- Sweno - 04-15-2011
From what I remember the sandybridge issues have long since been dealt with, so I have no fears about the quality of the existing parts.
I would definitely go with 4GB of memory (Your going to install the 64Bit version of windows right?).
If you do have some extra money that you absolutely must spend I would look into getting a SSD, or possibly another disk (for backups).
-Terry
-----
"so listen up boy, or pornography starring your mother will be the second worst thing to happen to you today"
TF2: Spy
- CattyNebulart - 04-15-2011
I'd recommend a coolermaster HAF case over an elite, they tend to be much quieter an easier to work with. A little pricier but the noise reduction alone tends to be worth it. Plus the cases are good enough you can use them for a few generations.
On the same note spending 50$ or so for a nice CPU fan will do wonders as far as noise is concerned, and a cooler CPU runs faster and lasts longer.
Instead of a single 2TB drive I would grab 4 or so smaller but highly reliable drives and mount them in RAID 5 for my data (I have 4 of these; works very well and very quiet: http://www.newegg.com/Pro...spx?Item=N82E16822136320 Though some people complain about the noise so it might be my haf case keeping the noise down), and depending on your budget get an SSD harddrive for the OS. Then again I don't know if windows likes raid or if it's still not at that level.
If you must buy windows (Yuck) you should probably at least spring for professional, since it is the version without a crippled kernel (well as non-crippled as windows kernels get these days). Since you are buying sufficient ram to run windows I assume you'll be running a 64 bit version? And I would be leery about running windows 7 with just 4 GB of ram, of course my usual workload is a bit heftier than most people's. But if you are in the UK and need to pay the microsoft UK tax (1$ = 1 pound... sure) it might not be worth it. (if windows is ever worth it)
My personal dislike of the RADEON line is well documented (too many failures and horror stories) so I won't bitch about it here.
I'm unfamiliar with CiT and power-supplies I usually research for a bit due to past reliability issues frying a lot of expensive hardware. Never skimping on power-supply cost again, learned that lesson the hard way.
Nice Screen selection, I find the extra 120 vertical pixels worth paying for in a 1920x1200 display but that does depend on what is on sale. I have 2 of these http://www.newegg.com/Pro...spx?Item=N82E16824001371 and they are quite nice but very pricey.
If you are thinking of doing a mid-lifecycle upgrade of newer CPU and more ram I would suggest getting a AMD, because they tend to be better at that.
Wireless keyboards haven't worked for me ever, but the last time I tried it was a decade ago. I hope technology has marched on.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."
- Sweno - 04-15-2011
I have to caution against doing raid on the motherboard. Yes it's fast, and yes it makes it easy (windows only see one virtual drive). But I have just had a rather bad experience with attempting to replace a failed drive in my raid 1 setup. and I ran across 3 main gripes
1) these things are not often updated, and may have a list of known issues as long as your arm
2) there is no competitive pressure to drive reliability or feature sets
3) the companies making the raid controller don't do this for a living. there will be problems
so if you are going to do raid, get it setup via software. much easier to manage/upgrade/deal with.
-Terry
-----
"so listen up boy, or pornography starring your mother will be the second worst thing to happen to you today"
TF2: Spy
- Jinx999 - 04-15-2011
CattyNebulart Wrote:Instead of a single 2TB drive I would grab 4 or so smaller but highly reliable drives and mount them in RAID 5 for my data (I have 4 of these; works very well and very quiet: http://www.newegg.com/Pro...spx?Item=N82E16822136320 Though some people complain about the noise so it might be my haf case keeping the noise down), and depending on your budget get an SSD harddrive for the OS. Then again I don't know if windows likes raid or if it's still not at that level.Can you tell me the advantage of this? Because, pricewise, 2TB seems to be the sweet spot atm.
Quote:If you must buy windows (Yuck) you should probably at least spring for professional, since it is the version without a crippled kernel (well as non-crippled as windows kernels get these days). Since you are buying sufficient ram to run windows I assume you'll be running a 64 bit version? And I would be leery about running windows 7 with just 4 GB of ram, of course my usual workload is a bit heftier than most people's. But if you are in the UK and need to pay the microsoft UK tax (1$ = 1 pound... sure) it might not be worth it. (if windows is ever worth it)I'm a non expert with worries about compatibility issues and learning curve. Which means Bill gates has a manacle around my leg. Yes, 64 bit. Can you be more specific about the advantages (or, if you prefer the lessened disadvantages) of professional edition?
Quote:My personal dislike of the RADEON line is well documented (too many failures and horror stories) so I won't bitch about it here.Never have had a problem with it, personally.
Quote:I'm unfamiliar with CiT and power-supplies I usually research for a bit due to past reliability issues frying a lot of expensive hardware. Never skimping on power-supply cost again, learned that lesson the hard way.I picked that because it was cheap, but not bargin basement.
Quote:Nice Screen selection, I find the extra 120 vertical pixels worth paying for in a 1920x1200 display but that does depend on what is on sale. I have 2 of these http://www.newegg.com/Pro...spx?Item=N82E16824001371 and they are quite nice but very pricey.I added up the cost and it's already pretty high by my standards.
Quote:If you are thinking of doing a mid-lifecycle upgrade of newer CPU and more ram I would suggest getting a AMD, because they tend to be better at that.I'm fine with my current one. It runs from the PS2 socket, which I prefer, probably for sentimental reasons.
Wireless keyboards haven't worked for me ever, but the last time I tried it was a decade ago. I hope technology has marched on.
I checked the memory. It is two channel.
How much of an advantage is an SSD?
- Black Aeronaut - 04-15-2011
I can tell you about SSD, and they are notably faster on the read and write, consume a lot less juice (which is a big deal on laptops), and they generally don't break. It's a good idea to have an SSD for your OS and swap-space because not only is it faster, but there's little-to-no chance of having to reinstall everything just because your SSD went 'bonk', so to speak.
- CattyNebulart - 04-15-2011
Did I mention how much I hate yuku?
Jinx999 Wrote:CattyNebulart Wrote:Instead of a single 2TB drive I would grab 4 or so smaller but highly reliable drives and mount them in RAID 5 for my data (I have 4 of these; works very well and very quiet: http://www.newegg.com/Pro...spx?Item=N82E16822136320 Though some people complain about the noise so it might be my haf case keeping the noise down), and depending on your budget get an SSD harddrive for the OS. Then again I don't know if windows likes raid or if it's still not at that level.Can you tell me the advantage of this? Because, pricewise, 2TB seems to be the sweet spot atm.
You can lose one drive without losing data. This has been an issue with 4/7 computers in my household (well those that I admin, which includes my parent's, etc) over the last 3 years. It is not a proper backup solution, but leaving people with a working computer when a drive fails is important, especially when you leave the computers in the hands of users that don't properly understand computers for weeks at a time. I would say that there is a good chance that the 2 TB drive will have issues within the next 2 years.
Jinx999 Wrote:If you must buy windows (Yuck) you should probably at least spring for professional, since it is the version without a crippled kernel (well as non-crippled as windows kernels get these days). Since you are buying sufficient ram to run windows I assume you'll be running a 64 bit version? And I would be leery about running windows 7 with just 4 GB of ram, of course my usual workload is a bit heftier than most people's. But if you are in the UK and need to pay the microsoft UK tax (1$ = 1 pound... sure) it might not be worth it. (if windows is ever worth it)
I'm a non expert with worries about compatibility issues and learning curve. Which means Bill gates has a manacle around my leg. Yes, 64 bit. Can you be more specific about the advantages (or, if you prefer the lessened disadvantages) of professional edition?
Most of the advantages of not having artificial limits into the kernel are relatively minor until you need them. The OS would support up to 192GB of memory as opposed to 16GB or less for home (all the way down to 2GB or so for starter), not a concern since you don't have that much memory but it's one of those things that is easy to explain. Similar increases exist for other memory related things, Process memory, etc. For some versions of windows such things as thread count etc are also affected. Some drivers don't work properly in non-professional editions, I havn't seen that with Win7 yet, but I have experienced it under XP. There are also more tools included to debork your system, and in older versions of windows similar artificial limits supposedly caused a fairly significant number of bugs including bluescreens.
The real seller I think would be that Professional also includes extra tools to run older (eg XP and earlier) programs that got borked in Windows Kernel 6.x (Vista and Win 7). If you spent 5000$ or so on an autocad licence that is a killer feature. If not it can be usefull for many older games.
As a personal note my parents have a win 7 Pro (built by me) and a Win 7 home (HP) and every two weeks I need to fix something on the Win7 home that leaves me going WTF why isn't that working. The difference is probably between chair and keyboard but...
Jinx999 Wrote:My personal dislike of the RADEON line is well documented (too many failures and horror stories) so I won't bitch about it here.
Never have had a problem with it, personally.
Bottle what you have and sell it, I use NVidia because it's merely atrocious and all driver problems can be worked around... which is a much much better experience than I have with any other card. Then again maybe I'm too demanding, I expect stuff to just work, instead of having to futz with drivers. I sometimes (often) want to mess with things but on a clean install it should work.
Jinx999 Wrote:How much of an advantage is an SSD?
It depends... and I honestly have no clue with Win7. For me (using Linux) it has done wonders in performance, 1/3 of my boot time is the bios posting and loading grub, and general system response under heavy I/O has been wonderful due to RAID for the big data and SSD for the critical data. Then again my setup has been tweaked in ways I wouldn't even try with windows (well have tried and failed miserably to be more precise, User and system data should be seperate #%&#%&^$#).
SSD's vary widely in performance and price and changes frequently.
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."
- Jinx999 - 04-15-2011
I've been looking at cases. Because of my desk, I'm having to put the case on top. Which means 1) I have to look at it and 2) The ports and switches have to be in front, not on top.
I'm not a fan of the HAF design - too techno-industrial for my taste.
I found about a design called the Zalman Z7 / Z9. It's got some very shiny reviews and isn't that expensive. However the z7 has the plugs and ports on top and the z9 is too new (I think that's the most likely explanation) to be easily availible.
Also, can anyone tell me about the benefits/drawbacks of OEM versions of the operating system? Preferably while keeping the cursing of all things microsoft down to a dull roar. :-p
Oh - please remember that, while I have added drives and memeory and changed graphocs cards before, this would be my first ever home built system - which means that I would miss things obvious to someone more experienced. If anyone has spotted a mistake that would be obvious to someone who has done a previous build . . . I haven't.
- Dartz - 04-15-2011
OEM versions are cheaper.
The drawback is that they are locked to that one motherboard, and that one motherboard only. If it goes pop and has to be replaced, or you upgrade.... then the OEM version won't follow.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?
- Jinx999 - 04-15-2011
I've heard that microsoft make exceptions for replacement due to part failure. Has this changed?
- Sofaspud - 04-15-2011
I'm... unsure where you're getting the "locked to one version" data. I mean, I suppose it's possible? But I've never seen it in the wild. I've been installing off OEM discs for... yeesh, decades. Hell, I used to *be* one of the VARs that distributed Windows via OEM discs.
The biggest problem with OEM versions, in my experience, is that many places don't actually have a Windows installer on the disc. What they have is a disc image, from an already-installed and configured machine, and that's what gets slapped on your computer when you install, complete with incorrect drivers and whatnot.
(Which, it should be noted, *can* be worked around. If Windows boots at all, you can fix the rest. If it doesn't boot, then yeah, problems.)
It's certainly worth a try, however, and worst-case scenario you'll simply have to purchase a licensed copy instead.
--sofaspud
--"Listening to your kid is the audio equivalent of a Salvador Dali painting, Spud." --OpMegs
- Foxboy - 04-15-2011
As far as Newegg is concerned...
OEM means you don't have the shiny retail packaging, just the actual product in a plain cardboard box or in a plastic baggie.
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''
-- James Nicoll
- Wiregeek - 04-15-2011
I recently let the smoke out of my Asus P5n-eSLI (or some other alphabet soup name), which was playing host to my Windows 7 installation, core 2 duo, and memory.
So I ordered up a new motherboard, and I'm all ready to do a new installation of win 7 and I have the good phone (speakerphone) for arguing with MS, and I figure I better let it boot all the way on the old hdd, at least see what happens.
7 boots, chudders for a few seconds. I see an unfamiliar icon in the system tray. I click on it. It has a list of every piece of hardware on the motherboard, and a green check next to it. "Driver installed" it says.
Then it pops a dialog box and tells me that my new drivers are done, could I please reboot?
I've been running Win 7 ever since. love it.
I'm running ultimate. I was able to get legitimate access to my work's site license (I swear to you it is legitimate), and I have Ultimate 32 bit, which I feel is the best mix of power and compatibility.
The biggest problem I have with Linux, is calibrating the vodka drip to keep my pet admin at the appropriate level of intoxication to troubleshoot his side of the network.
On this machine, I'm gonna be just another 'me too', I'd go with 8gb of ram and an Nvidia card.
I'd go with a single 1920x1080 monitor, backed up by a 1080p (which is 1920x1080) 47" or bigger TV. But that's so absurdly a personal-preference issue that I don't want to commit to it 8)
"No can brain today. Want cheezeburger."
From NGE: Nobody Dies, by Gregg Landsman
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5579457/1/NGE_Nobody_Dies
- SkyeFire - 04-15-2011
Quote:Wiredgeek wrote:
The biggest problem I have with Linux, is calibrating the vodka drip to keep my pet admin at the appropriate level of intoxication to troubleshoot his side of the network.
Quote:I am SO stealing that line....
- Bluemage - 04-16-2011
Few suggestions here.
First off, re: the 5900 RPM drive. Don't. If you're going 2TB, you have plenty of data, which means games and/or movies. I went 7200 RPM for all my drives, and I don't regret it.
Second, SSD. Crazy good boot times, low power, no moving parts, high price, and small capacity. Good for OS and critical programs- nothing else. You could get a lot of the boot time advantage from a Seagate Momentus XT as a primary drive- 500GB 7200RPM drive with a 4GB SSD built in. Worth looking into, anyway.
Third, memory. I went 2 x 4GB DDR3, just to have the option to upgrade further, and I haven't seen the need quite yet. Judging from my experiences, 8GB will be the max for quite some time, so I'd either start there, or make sure that upgrading won't be too painful in the future.
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.
I've been writing a bit.
- Jinx999 - 04-16-2011
Except that 7200 rpm 2TB drives are crazy expensive, 5400 seems to be the standard for this type.
And nobody's spotted any incompatibilities or really stupid design decisions?
Looking at reviews of the Seagate Momentus now.
[Edit, which pointed me at the Samsung Spinpoint - which seems to be a no brainer for my program drive]
- robkelk - 04-16-2011
Jinx999 Wrote:Except that 7200 rpm 2TB drives are crazy expensive, 5400 seems to be the standard for this type.Because they're intended for data storage, not everyday use. (We have a large array of 2TB 5400RPM drives at work, which is our Tier-2 storage device. The faster drives are in the Tier-1 storage device.)
In home terms - copying a file from a 5400 RPM drive to a memory dongle plugged into a USB-1 port is about as fast as copying a file from a 5400 RPM drive to a memory dongle plugged into a USB-2 port. I've done the experiment.
You want something faster for you primary drive.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- Jinx999 - 04-16-2011
Never intended to be the primary drive. I've looked at the SSDs and they seem very expensive for a faster boot time. I might get one later when they'll presumably be more cost effective.
Here's the updated proposed setup (* - changed):
Processor: Intel Sandybridge i5-2500 (the price changes every time I open the page!) There are cheaper - but it's only ~£10 more than the next step down.
Motherboard: Gigabyte SKT-1155 H67M-UD2H-B3 Cheap 67 1155 socket motherboard from a reputable manufacturer.
* Memory: Corsair CMZ8GX3M2A1600C9 8GB 1600MHz CL9 DDR3 Did some checking. 4GB won't be enough. They're already selling games that recommend 4GB and there are computers with 6GB in PC World.
Graphics Card: Sapphire RADEON HD 5770 Never had any problems with Radeon, myself.
* Primary Drive: Samsung F3 HD103SJ 1TB Got some really good reviews for speed and isn't expensive.
* Data Drive: Seagate ST2000DL003 3.5-inch 6GB SATA Drive (2TB,64MB,5900RPM,Barracuda Green)
* Cables: 2 x SATA Data Cable, Serial ATA 45 cm Lead Not much to say.
Optical Drive: NEW! Samsung SH-S223C 22x SATA DVD RW Writer Burner
* Case: Zalman Z9 Mid Tower First I've seen it on Amazon, just now. Has some really good reviews on the net.
* Power Supply: CiT 650W Power Supply Unit with PSU and Dual 12V Rails - Black Edition I don't expect to use 750W
Monitor: Samsung P2450H 24-inch Widescreen Full HD 1920 x 1080p
Keyboard and Mouse: Logitech Wireless Desktop Mk300
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium, Full Version The professional edition is quite a lot more expensive for uncertain benefit.
Please let me know if you think this bunch isn't going to work well together.
- Rod.H - 04-16-2011
Well I know Civ 5 has some problems with less than 4GB of RAM.....I'm thinking I should've installed x64 Win7 more often due to that. Plus more x64 Win7 drivers are available now.
I'm more in the Velociraptor camp, over SSD, when it comes to main HDs. How ever I've learnt the hard way that a 64GB v'raptor is too small for a incorrectly configured disk-spanning Win7 install. Something I've still yet to fix as I've got a bagged larger v'rap drive which has been sitting atop my case for some months now. Also only having five out of six functional SATA ports don't help things.
I've also almost gone back to an all Pioneer optical drive setup too, by adding in a BDR-206, had to add in a 6GB/s sata card while I was at it so I could use it. Till I looked at it closely I'd thought it was only a DVD-RW/Blu-ray reader not the full gamete of current optical disk formats that it is. Yet I still use a DVD-106 for outta region discs, RPC-1 & vlc for the win.
If you want to run a bunch of Win XP native programs, you're best off using Win7 Pro as it has a XP VM built in, and is more VM friendly. Win 7 Home Premium doesn't have that capability outta the box, even then your going to be using Windows Anytime Upgrade to get to the level you need.
- paladindythe - 04-16-2011
Hitachi Hard drives are going for a bargain at the moment:
http://www.amazon.com/Hitachi-Deskstar- ... 999&sr=8-1
You can also cheat a bit by exploiting a partition. Since data is recorded on cylinders, and that hard drives are organized to read/write to the outside first (which is why they are somewhat faster new), you can make a 'small' partition first for your operating system and applications, and a second partition for your data.
If you make a 300GB partition with a 2TB 7200rpm drive to store your OS, you'll actually be out performing the 10,000rpm drives of the same size--in that partition.
It's a clever trick.
- Jinx999 - 04-16-2011
Not as good on amazon.co.uk. They've also got less favourable reviews.
I'm also switching to the ATX version of the motherboard (or very similar). Here (Gigabyte SKT-1155 PH67-UD3-B3) - and switching back. This doesn't support 1600 memory
Actually neither of them do. :-(
OK. It looks like none of the cheaper boards (the ones that do seem to be twice the price) take 1600 memory so:
Motherboard: Gigabyte SKT-1155 PH67-UD3-B3
Memory: Corsair DDR3 1333MHz 8GB (2x240) DIMM Unbuffered
- paladindythe - 04-17-2011
I always thought that memory could clock down easily enough. Not that I've tried, though. ;P