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+--- Thread: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" (/showthread.php?tid=12583)
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - Dartz - 06-30-2018
Gun control doesn't stop the criminals from getting guns no more than a red and white sign on the roadside stops me from doing 240kph on public roads.... . But that's not really the point.
It makes it harder. It costs more money - because of the increased risks involved. Someone has to smuggle an illegal weapon. Someone has to hold an illegal weapon. Someone has to get ammunition for an illegal weapon. And all of these people take a massive premium for their service because they're looking at time in prison if they get caught.
It also means the non criminals who probably shouldn't have guns tend to get weeded out along the way. In our case, by the gun community self-policing. You need to either be a member of gun club - which means you have to convince the members to let you in, or you need specific permission from landowners to shoot on their land. And you need a specific legitimate purpose for owning the weapon - shooting pests, sports, hunting and the like.
Self defense is specifically excluded as a reason on the license form.
And yet, if you own a weapon, you are allowed to use it to defend your home. If you find a burglar in your home at night, nobody will think twice about you putting a hole in them to keep your family safe. You can shoot 'em in the back as they're running across the field because they've been harrasing you for months and will come back (Actual Case). You are also allowed stab them in the head with half a broken shears (Whyever would you even have that in your house where it comes easy to hand? But also an actual case). You can fire a warning shot at someone - hit them by accident, get sued and the judge will throw it out because they were the ones breaking the law (Third actual case)
The final lock is the local police superintendant who normally rubber stamps things but, say, if you've a history of murder and being a member of an organisation that's treasonous to the State they'll fairly handily deny the application. Even if that was a long time ago and you've moved strictly towards peaceful politics now.
But generally, the jist of the process is that it involves convincing either the locals or the gunowning community - and the local cops - that you're not a cunt who's going to ruin it for everyone. And for the majority of people who want to get a firearm in this country it's actually not too difficult to do. There's decent game to be had and an active community of shooters. And you have a community that very much auto-polices itself.
There is, of course a side benefit.
The police can generally ask a few questions first before shooting people. Or don't even need to be armed in the first place.
EDIT..... and now I have Deja Vu. I could swear I said the same thing before somewhere....
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - robkelk - 06-30-2018
(06-30-2018, 09:58 AM)Dartz Wrote: EDIT..... and now I have Deja Vu. I could swear I said the same thing before somewhere....
I believe you did, when we discussed the relatively-recent Toronto mass-murder-by-vehicle incident. The alleged perpetrator claimed to have a gun, the arresting officer saw that he didn't and holstered his own firearm.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - Rajvik - 06-30-2018
robbelk Wrote:Please provide examples of where the USA has gun control laws in place and functioning. I'll set the bar low: give me a jurisdiction that comes within 75% of the restrictions enforced in Canada.
I don't know what the gun control laws are in Canada, so I honestly couldn't say, however I hear and believe that the three cities with the tightest gun control laws in the US are Chicago, New York and Baltimore. I admit that could be wrong, but just Chicago alone, if true, should be enough to refute those arguments.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - hazard - 06-30-2018
(06-30-2018, 06:50 PM)Rajvik Wrote:robbelk Wrote:Please provide examples of where the USA has gun control laws in place and functioning. I'll set the bar low: give me a jurisdiction that comes within 75% of the restrictions enforced in Canada.
I don't know what the gun control laws are in Canada, so I honestly couldn't say, however I hear and believe that the three cities with the tightest gun control laws in the US are Chicago, New York and Baltimore. I admit that could be wrong, but just Chicago alone, if true, should be enough to refute those arguments.
Chicago has a problem; Chicago is part of the USA, and IIRC Illinois (the state it's in) has very permissive gun laws. It's just the city that's so restricted.
Because of this there's no barrier whatsoever to moving a gun from outside the city into it. The sad but honest truth is that if effective gun control is to be applied it will have to be applied across the country. Or at least across a US state.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - Labster - 06-30-2018
Close Hazard, but not quite. Illinois has somewhat stricter gun laws, but neighboring Indiana is lax. As far as I know, California is the only US state to enforce customs at the border, and even then only for agricultural disease control. City laws on firearms are mostly meaningless, probably similar in enforcement profile to a city ban on drugs.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - robkelk - 07-01-2018
Canadian gun laws aren't that difficult to find. All federal laws are available on the Department of Justice's website
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - robkelk - 07-17-2018
I think we have a contender for Most Egregious Lawsuit of 2018.
MGM Resorts International, owner of the hotel from which a shooter killed 58 people in October 2017, is suing the victims of the shooting
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - hazard - 07-18-2018
Geeze, I know it would never happen but I'd encourage the courts to accept this filing, and then have the judge dismiss it with prejudice and fine MGM millions for sheer poor taste.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - robkelk - 07-18-2018
(07-18-2018, 06:09 AM)hazard Wrote: Geeze, I know it would never happen but I'd encourage the courts to accept this filing, and then have the judge dismiss it with prejudice and fine MGM millions for sheer poor taste.
Add "and pay the defendants' court costs" and I'm right there with you.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - nemonowan - 07-18-2018
Even if it seems in bad taste and it has been spun into worst taste by the clickbait media, you have to take into account that they are not suing the victims for damages, money, nor any such.
What MGM wants is a preemptive legal ruling that they had done all due diligence required towards security, and that therefore they are not liable for the actions of the shooter. Which, in a place where open carry is legal and that hosts the biggest gun shows in the US, doesn't seem so farfetched. This is something that WILL be decided by the courts sooner or later, since many victims are planning to sue MGM because the concert organizers have already obtained immunity from liability. MGM is trying to get this resolved (in their favor, duh) as soon as possible.
Where it looks bad is that in order to get such a ruling, they must present a lawsuit in fromt of a judge, and it requires them to name a defendant - in this case, the potential suers, AKA the victims of the shooter. And this gave the cue to all the misleading headlines.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - hazard - 07-19-2018
The thing is, MGM could've avoided those headlines and the now soured PR relation that will make them seem even more scummy by waiting until they got sued and then filing with the court a motion do dismiss on the basis of that 9/11 law. The preemptive nature of this filing makes it appear much worse.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - robkelk - 07-19-2018
Exactly. If one is going to do something so bone-headedly stupid, one should expect to be mocked in the press.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - robkelk - 07-23-2018
Reset
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - Norgarth - 07-23-2018
(07-23-2018, 08:46 AM)robkelk Wrote: Reset
NRA: "That one doesn't count! It happened in Canada!"
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - robkelk - 07-24-2018
Then keep your God-damned firearms from crossing the border.
Two confirmed fatalities, both females. The older was 18, the younger was 10.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - Norgarth - 07-29-2018
reset
New Orleans
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - Dartz - 07-29-2018
Maybe we're praying to the wrong God or thinking about the wrong things....
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - Labster - 07-30-2018
Thoughts and prayers don't stop gunmen. As a poet once said, "You won't get him, Thinkin' and a-prayin', wishin' and a-hopin'". Or perhaps more pertinent would be the words of the philosopher Carole King, "You can't talk to a man with a shotgun in his hand."
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - Epsilon - 08-02-2018
Active shooter at US military base medical center:
https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/local/police-activity-reported-wpafb-near-medical-center/zbwqtemrZ2Vb1tasmndpyN/
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - Bob Schroeck - 08-02-2018
False alarm.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - DHBirr - 08-04-2018
The NRA claims to be in dire financial difficulties.
They're in my thoughts and prayers. That is, I think they're lying, but I pray they really do go broke.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - hazard - 08-04-2018
If the Mueller investigation (or an investigation spun off from it) can adequately prove they were a Russian influence and money channel they really will go broke. And it's not looking that good for them.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - robkelk - 08-04-2018
IIRC, they have a half-billion dollars in the bank. Assuming that's true, they aren't going broke any time soon.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - hazard - 08-04-2018
Unless they manage to convince the public the government is lying they're going to lose membership fast, and if they manage or even try that they're probably going to end up under permanent investigation by the FBI for a decade or more just to ensure they're not used for skeevy political purposes by foreign or US organisations. Because in that case? They're poised to do a lot of harm to the US.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - robkelk - 08-11-2018
Another Canadian shooting
Four dead in Fredericton, including two officers. Suspect in custody.
EDIT: Information about the victims.