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Another DW-Eva teaser - Printable Version

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Re: please don't hit me . . . - Star Ranger4 - 02-23-2003

Quote:
Or to put it another way - was it the powers and principalities or the decisions of people on a more personal scale that made more of a difference in how things happened?
If you know the answer to that question, you know the answer as to how Doug influences the events of Evangelion. And that's all that needs saying.
Very good points, and something that I think a lot of people overlook in stories of this nature. What makes for a really gripping story isn't the Eva vs Angel battles... its the smaller, human scale battles like the inner turmoil of Shinji... or Asuka dealing with her "I'm the best and I have to prove it to everyone" attitude. Or even Rei learning that just because she was cloned doesn't mean that she's less important as a human being.
These are all areas where a small influance from Doug could make major changes (and hopefully positive ones) to the Mind(censored) that is the original end of the storyline.
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

Re: please don't hit me . . . - Bob Schroeck - 02-23-2003

Josh and Logan are of course accurately depicting the material I have in my Eva file, for which I thank them. This is not going to be Skysaber's "Eva Revolution" (as much as I enjoy that over-the-top off-the-wall saga!), but something that happens on a much smaller, more intimate scale. Just as further points to illustrate, Doug actually leaves the Eva world 2/3 to 3/4 of the way through the story and never really learns what Gendo's goals or Third Impact are; and unlike many insert characters sent to Eva, he turns out to be relatively useless in direct action against the Angels. He functions more as a teacher and mentor than anything else, as is attested to by some of the teaser fragments I've posted.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

the thing of it is, - Murmur the Fallen - 02-26-2003

is that the personal choices that they made HAD a huge impact on the "external" world.
It was Shinji's very personal decision to not be a part of the gestalt humanity that was third impact that brought him and presumably asuka back to individuality and the "real" world.
But there again, one wonders how much of an impact Doug actually would have on any of the characters.
Shinji, for instance, genuinely does not feel loved and accepted until Kaworu--even the affection given him by Misato is useless to him, really. He certainly does not feel better b/c of her loving him.
Misato herself is a bundle of self-loathing. Her litany of being "tired of being clean" and loving Kaji because ultimately he was just like her father shows that even she's not quite all there.
And Asuka . . . good god. She is far too messed up for anything to do much good for her.
So, no matter what kind of advice and support doug tries to give them, they're all set on a course that started a long time ago for them.
-murmur
--asuka, the quintessential ex-girlfriend

Re: the thing of it is, - Valles - 02-26-2003

Quote:
It was Shinji's very personal decision to not be a part of the gestalt humanity that was third impact that brought him and presumably asuka back to individuality and the "real" world.
Which was shown only through symbolism and hence should be ignored with contempt.
Sorry, I have issues from being forced to read Hawthorne.
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So, no matter what kind of advice and support doug tries to give them, they're all set on a course that started a long time ago for them.
I think that there are two classes of Eva fans. First, there are the people who saw the first half of the series and actually started liking the characters and such. Then the ending happened and they went "OUCH!"
Then there are the people who watched the first half of the series and went, "hmm. Robot show. Yawn. But weird shit in the background, interesting." Then the ending happened and they went "Hey, cool, look how subtle and symbolic this is! Wow!"
Symbolism is author-wanking, nothing more. As with self-inserts, it can be interesting if done well and viewed by someone with an open or sufficiently analytical mindset.
I am not open to symbolism, and I prefer not to analyse my entertainment.
Blessed be.
-n
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

Re:Re: the thing of it is, - Rod.H - 02-26-2003

Quote:
I think that there are two classes of Eva fans. First, there are the people who saw the first half of the series and actually started liking the characters and such. Then the ending happened and they went "OUCH!"
I'm pretty sure I fit into this catergory as guess what series I watched knowing that it was truely anime... Eva... well aside from the odd eps of Samurai Pizza Cats & Sailor Moon I caught when I was younger.
Yes, Eva was my true intro into that world, and the last eps still triggers deep hurting with me, as such I'm all for anything that disrupts an Impact or the various scenarios.
Heck, the creative bug in me wants to try and put the fear of something into Gendo with the pointy end of four pulse phaser cannons and two photon torp tubes, mounted either side of a snarling tigers mouth daubed deflector dish mounting. It is a dream I have and a dream it will stay.
After all getting -that- into the geofront means dealling with the EVAs and the high odds there afterwards of losing to them.
--Rod.H
"Hmm...covert op to 'rescue' Rei clones. What to do 'bout the LCL....."

Re: the thing of it is, - offsides - 02-26-2003

Quote:
So, no matter what kind of advice and support doug tries to give them, they're all set on a course that started a long time ago for them.
You have your opinion, I have mine. One of the few things that fundamentally grate at my soul is the concept that nothing can be done to change things, so why even bother trying. While you may not like the options before you, and may not really have more than one good one, you _always_ have options. In the canonical Eva both Shinji and Misato could have made different choices that would have affected things, but for various reasons (Anno's self-loathing anyone?) they didn't.
Doug is an outsider. He has no preconceptions of the universe, and upon seeing something he feels needs helping, he tries to help. Outside influences can make a huge difference; different perspectives can let you see options you never even realized you had. That's what DWVI is all about.
When you're Damned if you Do and Damned if you Don't, might as well Do Something - you never know what you might accomplish.
Offsides (apologies about the rant, it's just one of my pet peeves...)Drunkard's Walk Forum Moderator and Prereader At LargeDrunkard's Walk Forum Moderator and Prereader At Large

Re: the thing of it is, - Bob Schroeck - 02-26-2003

Quote:
It was Shinji's very personal decision to not be a part of the gestalt humanity that was third impact that brought him and presumably asuka back to individuality and the "real" world.
We can't really know that for sure -- as Nathan points out, the symbolism is vague, and at least one fic author has interpreted it as Shinji being "cast out" because he disagreed with his father's view of paradise. Anyway, that's irrelevant to the story I am/will be telling.
Quote:
Shinji, for instance, genuinely does not feel loved and accepted until Kaworu--even the affection given him by Misato is useless to him, really. He certainly does not feel better b/c of her loving him.
The thing is, even if she does love him (albeit in a bit of a big sisterly way, the kiss and the promise in EoE aside), she pushes a whole lot of wrong buttons with him -- her casual sexuality frightens him (even as it attracts him against his will), her slovenly habits and random crudeness disgust him, her drunkenness makes him pity her. It's likely that he never even realizes that her affection for him exists; if he does, he's too repulsed by her bad attributes to consider it worthwhile. He's too close to her to get close to her, if that makes any sense.
In Doug, on the other hand, he will find a patient and encouraging teacher who actively solicits and considers Shinji's opinions, who grants him the respect and control that Shinji doesn't get elsewhere in his life, and has no hidden agenda that involves using Shinji as a tool. Upon discovering their roles as the Eva pilots, Doug dedicates considerable time and effort not only to improving their performance in a way that their NERV "training" never achieves, but on helping them grow as people. (Not always successfully, but at least he tries.) Furthermore, after a critical moment when the Children deduce certain information about Doug and confront him, he is absolutely honest with them about his origins and his abilities, and uses the latter to even further enhance their training. He will be about as unlike any adult in Tokyo-3 as you can get.
And in Shinji's case, that means unintentionally becoming a surrogate father figure. This means that all the potential that Misato might have had to help Shinji grow (but squandered or ignored) gets transferred to Doug. Doug's not exactly comfortable with this, but he does his best to live up to it.
Quote:
Misato herself is a bundle of self-loathing. Her litany of being "tired of being clean" and loving Kaji because ultimately he was just like her father shows that even she's not quite all there.
Before going any further, let me say, yes, I know, they're all walking wounded -- and that's 75% of the problem. There's no one who isn't too wrapped up in their own angst to help them through their own. (Except maybe Maya, but she's not strong enough even to help Ritsuko, let alone the rest of the cast.) For a very small subset of the cast, Doug becomes the rock against which they can steady themselves long enough to stagger back to their feet, precisely because although he's got his own issues, they don't debilitate him and numb him to the problems of the people around him.
Quote:
And Asuka . . . good god. She is far too messed up for anything to do much good for her.
Guess where most of Doug's good-intentioned bungling hits first...
Quote:
So, no matter what kind of advice and support doug tries to give them, they're all set on a course that started a long time ago for them.
No. I can't accept that. If that were true, there would be no point in psychiatry/psychology. Everyone would be predestined after a particular point in their lives, and nothing could be done to change that. I can't believe that, and I won't write that way. Everyone must have a chance for redemption, even Gendo, goddamn him. Just as a parallel, should I have nuked the entire Madigan subplot in DW2 just because her course was supposedly set and immutable? That fallacy is what brought us to Anno's ending, after all.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

Re: the thing of it is, - Bob Schroeck - 02-26-2003

Quote:
Symbolism is author-wanking, nothing more.
Not inherently, Nathan. Like many other things in writing it is a tool (albeit one that is sometimes employed unconsciously), and as with any writer's tool, it can be overdone. Then it becomes author-wanking, just like excess sentimentality, melodrama or any of a hundred other things can. It's one of many spices in the stew -- in the right proportions it adds immeasurably to a story, but too much and what comes out is unpalatable.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

Re: Re:Re: the thing of it is, - Bob Schroeck - 02-26-2003

Quote:
Heck, the creative bug in me wants to try and put the fear of something into Gendo with the pointy end of four pulse phaser cannons and two photon torp tubes, mounted either side of a snarling tigers mouth daubed deflector dish mounting. It is a dream I have and a dream it will stay.
The only reason Doug isn't going to do that is because I want him to sooooo badly. And that would be so wrong for the story that I want to tell. I'm settling for some taunting and something extra special that I won't describe because it's a spoiler, but none of it involves any degree of physical harm to Gendo.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

Re: the thing of it is, - Bob Schroeck - 02-26-2003

Edited to fix the quote, nothing else - Offsides
Quote:
Doug is an outsider. He has no preconceptions of the universe, and upon seeing something he feels needs helping, he tries to help.
In a way, it's the "butterfly effect". Doug does a few small things, compared to the ultimate fate of the world. He works entirely locally. And things change.
I'll say this to those of you who are not prereaders. The apparent change, at least at first, is not large. All the Angels come and are defeated. Third Impact starts. Stuff like that. But the choices that are made... well, the devil is in the details. (A wonderfully apt way to put it when talking about Evangelion!)
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Outside influences can make a huge difference; different perspectives can let you see options you never even realized you had. That's what DWVI is all about.
Bingo.
Quote:
When you're Damned if you Do and Damned if you Don't, might as well Do Something - you never know what you might accomplish.
Yes. That might even be a good blurb for the entire story.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

Re: the thing of it is, - offsides - 02-26-2003

Quote:
>> When you're Damned if you Do and Damned if you Don't, might as well Do Something - you never know what you might accomplish.
Yes. That might even be a good blurb for the entire story.
It's one of my philosophies on life, even if I'm not always good at following it all the time. But yes, I think it will make a good blurb for the whole thing.
Offsides
Drunkard's Walk Forum Moderator and Prereader At LargeDrunkard's Walk Forum Moderator and Prereader At Large

Overall quote. - Guest - 02-27-2003

I can across a version this somewhere, but I can no longer find where it came from.
"Damned if I do, and damned if I don't, so damn it, I will!"
Any recognition? (Hell, maybe I made it up, sometimes I do that.)
On a different note, I'm looking forward to this step because I have little idea what Evangelion is about. I only got into anime about a year ago, and it's way hard to find a good source of it besides DVDs for sale here.
And being a college student, that doesn't help me much!

Re: the thing of it is, - Star Ranger4 - 02-27-2003

Quote:
Quote[Image: happy.gif] oug is an outsider. He has no preconceptions of the universe, and upon seeing something he feels needs helping, he tries to help.
In a way, it's the "butterfly effect". Doug does a few small things, compared to the ultimate fate of the world. He works entirely locally. And things change.
Pretty much what I've begun to expect for this story from the hints that have come along. As I pointed out earlier, with at least 3 points where a minor flap of butterfly wings could create a major hurricane down the road.
PS: If I wanted to deal with strange symbolism that had to be analyzed to understand what was going on, I'd go out and get the Utena movie.
"I was an Otaku before those kids came along and changed the meaning of the word."
-- HM "Howling Mad" Wilson to more than one team-mate.
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

Re: Overall quote. - offsides - 02-27-2003

No recognition, AFAIK I made up my version. And where's "here"? If you're close I could lend you my copies for background info. Just have a good counselor on standby, the ending (and especially the movies) is a mind fsck...
Offsides
Drunkard's Walk Forum Moderator and Prereader At Large

Re: Overall quote. - Guest - 02-27-2003

"Here" is the University of New Hampshire, in fact.
Anyone have any suggestions of movie rental chains that have a good anime selection?

Re: Overall quote. - Bob Schroeck - 02-27-2003

UNH is a bit far from the general area where Josh, Nathan and I are all more or less located, so I don't think you'll be seeing his copies any time soon...
As for chains, well, after years of having a lackluster "animation" section, Blockbuster has, within the last six months or so, suddenly achieved Anime Enlightenment, at least in our area. Josh can testify to this; when he first saw the racks and racks of anime in our local BBV, he did a physical halt, doubletake and "whoa". In particular, BBV seems to have finally understood that most anime comes in series, and that it is stupid to buy, for instance, disk/tape 3 (and only 3) of a 6-disk/tape show. We were able to rent all of Steel Angel Kurumi in one fell swoop, for instance, and most of Excel Saga.
So check your local Blockbuster and see if they've reached anime nirvana yet. If not, you might want to call around to the little mom-and-pop places and see if any of them have a clue. And finally, don't dismiss game/comic shops out of hand. There's a place in Princeton NJ right on Nassau Street across from the University which sells comics and games, and rents anime. They apparently do good student business...
Good luck in your search!

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

"where's your pariah now?" "stuck in an anti- - Murmur the Fallen - 02-28-2003

I guess that I'm in the very small, third category when it comes to Eva-fans: Those that really enjoyed the "fun" half of the series in the beginning, but when the dark spiral began and the pasts of the characters were revealed, went "Damn! That makes SO MUCH SENSE!" and enjoyed it, despite the suffering the characters went through, all the way through the last episode, with Shinji's cathartic rebirth as an individual (everyone congratulating him was very touching, I felt). Who, after enjoying the series, watched the movies, and spent the next two years avoiding it, all the while writing in IMs to friends "MISATO! NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!" then eventually WATCHED the movie again and, while still sniffling about the death of, well, everyone, enjoyed the story and Shinji's cathartic rebirth as an individual again.
See, the thing of it is, is that unless Doug has a massive therapy song in his arsenal, he can't do THAT MUCH GOOD for them. Sure, would a strong paternal figure help Shinji? Absolutely. But for how long? And when Doug leaves, how would that affect his sense of abandonment?
What I think that nearly all the characters really NEED is to spend many, many, many, many, many years in deep therapy in the countryside or by the sea swimming with dolphins and getting lots of positive reinforcement. Anything else is just a bandaid over a sucking chest wound.
Though I will say this: Doug, being acquinted with horror, could do *something* to help Shinji not go insane at the sight of the mutilated and more-than-half-eaten Eva Unit 002. Though how this would come up without being, you know, *too* forced . . . .that'd take some work.
-murmur
"remember, Shinji, when you see the mutilated corpses of your comrades that you're in a love-hate relationship with, don't freak out.
"don't freak out?"
"don't freak out."

Re: "where's your pariah now?" "stuck in an a - Valles - 02-28-2003

Quote:
What I think that nearly all the characters really NEED is to spend many, many, many, many, many years in deep therapy in the countryside or by the sea swimming with dolphins and getting lots of positive reinforcement. Anything else is just a bandaid over a sucking chest wound.
Well, that's fair enough. OTOH, I think that you're failing to make a distinction between "Completely healed" and "Functional enough to fix themselves and keep going in the meantime".
I have been known to scare entire classrooms discussing my views on teasing, rednecks and such. I have no intention of ever getting over that. That does not mean I cannot deal politely with such people, or that I explode at the slightest joke or, for that matter, purchase fully automatic weapons and carry them into packed highschools for purposes other than intimidation or population control.
Misato, for instance, is self-admittedly pretty fucked up. On the other hand, she holds down a steady job (and a pretty fucking important one at that!), lives on her own, and generally displays all the other characteristics that one would expect of a mature adult. I'm not going to say that the way she manages all this is exactly what a wise person would call -healthy-, but it inarguably works.
Likewise (and leaving aside Rei, who is Different), Shinji and Asuka, by the end, will still have Issues, but they'll know what those are and know what they need to do to fix them and how to deal in the meantime.
Blessed be.
-n
(Bob, recruit this man. We can use him. --Prereader Agent N)
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

Re: "where's your pariah now?" "stuck in an a - offsides - 02-28-2003

Quote:
See, the thing of it is, is that unless Doug has a massive therapy song in his arsenal, he can't do THAT MUCH GOOD for them. Sure, would a strong paternal figure help Shinji? Absolutely. But for how long? And when Doug leaves, how would that affect his sense of abandonment?
I'm gonna deal with this in two parts:
First off you're assuming that in order for Shinji, Asuka and the rest of the gang to make any difference in what happens that Doug has to make major changes to everything. The fundamental flaw in that assumption is that while they are _currently_ feeling isolated from each other, that they will remain so. As Doug helps them out they also learn to help each other and themselves. Doug creates a spiraling effect that allows them to keep growing in a mutially supportive fashion. He doesn't _have_ to do a lot, he just has to help them overcome their inertia and reverse their momentum. Even if you're walking wounded, as long as you don't think of yourself as walking dead, there's still the ability to heal.
Second, you are assuming that Doug is going to be "abandoning" Shinji. By the time Doug leaves, Shinji is a) much better off than he was before and b) fully aware that Doug is going to be leaving. But he will also have a supportive group of Asuka and Rei, as well as a few other people to keep him going. In the source Shinji doesn't really have anyone so 1 person leaving can definitely cause abandonment issues. In DWVI (nee DW-EVA) he has a serious circle of friends who he trusts, so losing one person (especially when he knows it's coming) is much less of a blow...
I can appreciate that you liked NGE as it was, and I say more power to you! I just happen to agree with Bob on this one for my personal tastes.
Offsides
Drunkard's Walk Forum Moderator and Prereader At Large

Re: "where's your pariah now?" "stuck in an a - Bob Schroeck - 02-28-2003

Quote:
"remember, Shinji, when you see the mutilated corpses of your comrades that you're in a love-hate relationship with, don't freak out.
"don't freak out?"
"don't freak out."
Damn. Gotta change that scene now.
Josh and Nathan have already done a great job trying to get across what I'm going to have Doug do. Doug doesn't really do any "fixing" himself -- in fact, in a passage I have written already, he despairs of being able to help, because he recognizes that they're all walking wounded but he knows he doesn't have the training to do the job. (Two professional therapists among the Warriors -- he knows enough to know that he doesn't know enough.) What he manages to do is give Misato and the children the tools -- and the determination -- to fix themselves. I'm going to tell you, they're still dysfunctional at the end of the story, but nowhere near what they end up as in canon. It comes out as a kind of functional dysfunctionality, if that makes any sense.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

Just a FYI.... - Slacker - 04-12-2003

Quote:
"When you're Damned if you Do and Damned if you Don't, might as well Do Something - you never know what you might accomplish."
Added to my quote file.
Damn fine words there, Offsides.
Ja Ne!
Slacker

Re: Just a FYI.... - offsides - 04-12-2003

Why thank ye kindly! [Image: smile.gif]
Offsides
Drunkard's Walk Forum Moderator and Prereader At Large