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+--- Thread: META: Magic in Fenspace (/showthread.php?tid=2833)
- Foxboy - 09-30-2012
Probably a strong "observer effect" as well. If someone goes in with as skeptic an eye as most 'Dane scientists would...
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''
-- James Nicoll
- Ace Dreamer - 09-30-2012
If you can detect the magic field, could you do experiments on the "observer effect"?
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind
- HRogge - 09-30-2012
M Fnord Wrote:Quote:Do they publish this results?
Naturally. It's not like they hold press conferences or anything - all that does is light up a big sign reading "I AM A CRACKPOT PLEASE IGNORE ME (EXCEPT FOR YOU, GULLIBLE AND SCIENCE-ILLITERATE MEDIA)"[1] - but the results of all their experiments and theorizing is written up and published in as many respectable journals as will take them. Which to be fair isn't many; Fen science is still looked upon with a bit of a gimlet eye by mundane scientists. But it is published, and people are replicating the results & confirming parts of Black Mesa mechanics.
Most likely its the Soviets open source politics that finally makes CI to start releasing data about technologies they invented in 2020.
They were scared that they would loose the only source of income they have (as a research/development institute), but things began to stabilize in 2020+.
- Ace Dreamer - 10-01-2012
It might be worthwhile trying to make clear what sort of magic works in Fenspace.
Really fundamental magic, that lets you re-write the structure of reality, that trumps any 'natural laws'... I'm assuming that doesn't work in Fenspace. Or, if it does, Skuld didn't hand out any administrator passwords while she was visiting, that would let people tinker with the underlying (maybe purely information based?) structure of reality.
Magic then runs on top of the fundamental hardware of reality, it doesn't let you tinker with that hardware. (Rather like running programs doesn't let you set light to the computer, unless someone has been unwise enough to add 'ingite computer' hardware, and added an interface to it.)
So, Fenspace magic is still working in accord with physical law, it just implies that there are a lot more physical laws than people realise?
And, a level up from even that, there are all the traditions and myths that are the existing body of magical 'knowledge'.
I guess I shouldn't mention Amberites here. [grin]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chronicles_of_Amber
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Dice ... aying_Game
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind
- Dartz - 10-01-2012
What I want to know is...
Can this magical field be blocked? Like a Magic(Quantum?) Faraday Cage?
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?
- robkelk - 10-01-2012
Ace Dreamer Wrote:It might be worthwhile trying to make clear what sort of magic works in Fenspace.It might be worthwhile to list effects that were accomplished with "magical" rituals, then decide which of those effects were actually magical - that way, we won't have to deal with existing cases that don't fit into whatever guidelines we choose.
One such ritual: the 'waving of the settlement Grovers' Corners.
Ace Dreamer Wrote:Really fundamental magic, that lets you re-write the structure of reality, that trumps any 'natural laws'... I'm assuming that doesn't work in Fenspace. Or, if it does, Skuld didn't hand out any administrator passwords while she was visiting, that would let people tinker with the underlying (maybe purely information based?) structure of reality.
I would prefer that there not be any such "administrator passwords," thank you.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- robkelk - 10-01-2012
Dartz Wrote:What I want to know is...
Can this magical field be blocked? Like a Magic(Quantum?) Faraday Cage?
I would expect so. Whether we know how, though...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- HRogge - 10-01-2012
I think we need some rough meta-guidelines what magic can do... similar to the guidelines what Handwavium can do.
- Rakhasa - 10-01-2012
The two fisrt limitations I would add are two or the three from Disney's Genie: Magic cannot resurrect the dead, and Magic cannot make people fall in love.
The third one is that a Genie's wish cannot kill, but well, while it fits witht eh handwavium, it goes agains so many fictional magics that adding it would probabyl break disbelief ("I can turn someone into a toad, but I cannot cast a fireball? What are you smoking")
- HRogge - 10-01-2012
Some more ideas about Magic in Fenspace...
- Magic is similar powerful than Handwaved things... its different but they both play in the same league. No "this is the end to all magic" device like an absolute "Null magic generator"... no "this is a barrier that can only broken by magic".
- Magic is an universal force. Everyone can learn magic if he/she believes its possible, has the necessary mental discipline and study hard enough. Of course some people will have a talent for it and others might not, but you can compensate talent with "working harder to learn it"
- Dartz - 10-01-2012
Non-lethal magic has some unique consequences...
It might make it's practitioners more blast-happy when they know they can't hurt their target, compared to conventional fighters who have to think very carefully about whether it's worth risking killing someone over the issue.
Everyone's going to have to adapt to it in some way. A lot of people are going to have to learn how to do it or else risk being left behind....
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?
- Ace Dreamer - 10-01-2012
If magic can't resurrect the dead, what is Reincarnation about? Sorry, but I'm very suspicious about using Disney as a source for the logic that underlies magic. I'd certainly recommend against anything like swallowing the D&D, Runequest, GURPS or any other RPG magic system whole as the basis for what works in Fenspace. Disney and RPGs both have suspect agendas from a Fenspace viewpoint.
Is magic more than just "wish and it happens"? On a meta level, it'd better be so as to be useful for stories. How does it work? What are its limitations? Does it only work well for the "magically talented"? Are there people with anti-magical talent - ultra-skeptics?
Canon is that magic is weird in Fenspace. It is possible that a lot of magic is only safe or reliable in a ritually warded area. How did the Visitors get by? One explanation might be they were in a partial state of "trans-dimensional grace", which smoothed things so their magic worked OK in Fenspace. Having an avatar of goddess, in the form of Skuld, with them likely did no harm.
If it is just the source of magic that is unreliable, then building magic items in ritually warded areas, which store their own power, and/or stabalise the area when they're used, might work well. The downside for this is research is likely to turn-up the "magic disruptor" technique, that will make all but the most powerful/carefully implemented field magic very hard work.
Meta is that magic shouldn't dominate, it should just open up more possibilities, allow stories not previously possible. It shouldn't require all the "Fenspace Infinities" stuff to be junked or re-written (some of it, yes, not all of it), because Fenspace has become a "Magic Inc." or even a "Shadowrun" setting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic,_Inc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind
- HRogge - 10-01-2012
If magic only get "outed" in 2020, the consequences for most stories should be very small... it will take years until we get the first reliable spellcasters.
Which might mean that "The Birth of Magic" might be an important part of Season 3
- Bob Schroeck - 10-01-2012
Ace Dreamer Wrote:Historical magic would have no real solid theoretical basis, just loads of 'working rules', many of which might be useless, or worse than useless. But, here and there, there would be useful practices, such as use of meditation, emotional control, training a 'magic self', that sort of thing.
In case it's useful (and in case no one's quoted it in the remaining 2/3 of this thread that I have yet to read), here's the "Unified Theory of Magic" passage from chapter 2 of Drunkard's Walk VIII, which I believe is relevant to the matter at hand.
Let me explain. Magic at its deepest, most basic level is a
fundamental force of nature which can, when directed, change the
way *other* fundamental aspects of space-time behave, including
those which are loosely and fuzzily described as "spiritual".
In order to direct this force, you need two things -- a genetic
trait which allows you to perceive and manipulate that force, and
a system which abstracts and organizes the process of using that
force.
The trait is the magegift. It's like being born with eyes and
hands for magic.
The system is something called a magical tradition. (Or a school
of magic, or a style, or any of a dozen similar terms.) It is a
combination of knowledge, skills, techniques, and shortcuts which
allow a practitioner to manipulate mana and use it to accomplish
certain tasks. A system always includes a model of what magic is
and how it behaves, which defines what is and isn't possible with
the methods available to that system. The model does not need to
be "true" as long as it is internally consistent and maps somehow
onto the lower-level reality of magic; different traditions can
and do have mutually contradictory models, all of which work.
It's sort of like how geocentric astronomy is nothing like
reality, but still functions just fine for the purpose of
navigation on both land and sea.
The catch is, while the model empowers you to do what it says is
possible, it also restricts you with what it says is
*impossible*. Of course, the model can be changed, but until the
twentieth century this was a slow, trial-and-error process -- and
even if a revised model worked, sometimes there was a cultural or
religious context that would not allow it to be implemented.
(For example: ask a Catholic exorcist what he thinks about
grafting some Voudoun onto his bell-book-and-candle system to
give it a bit more *ooomph*. Be prepared to run.)
Anyway, along about 1949 a small group of theoretical physicists
scattered among several colleges along the East Coast of the
United States started wondering *why* there were dozens -- hell,
*hundreds* -- of different ways to do magic, and no two of them
agreed on more than a couple axioms or principles. Working with
some equally-curious mages from the same colleges and several
different traditions, they figured out that no single magical
system actually described the objective reality of magic -- they
just provided toolkits to *use* that reality. With that
breakthrough made, they began to work backwards from the various
systems to figure out just *what* that objective reality actually
*was*.
The result was the creation by 1974 of a Unified Theory of Magic.
(Which turned out to be the missing chunk of the Grand Unified
Theory that made the whole thing work, but that's neither here
nor there at the moment.) The UTM by itself wasn't a magical
system, but it described how magical systems *worked* from the
ground up, and how they could be designed and implemented. And
since no science can be done without mathematics, the UTM had an
entire branch of math of its own -- along with a notation system
that turned out to be very useful not only for quantifying
systems, but also for defining magical techniques -- "spells" --
in a system-neutral manner.
In the latest iteration of "The South Is Rising", the magic portions of the Catalogue are released to provide an edge against whatever unknown force transposed the Continental US with its counterparts from Turtledove's novel. In those passages it's mentioned that the requirement of the mage gift is very much at work in Fenspace -- not everyone can work magic. This will be just as applicable in mainline Fenspace as in this alternate,and gives us a "brake" of sorts to slow the adoption of magic into the setting to whatever speed we need. It doesn't matter what you find out with research -- if you don't have enough people with the genetic gift to use it, it's not going to upset the applecart.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Bob Schroeck - 10-01-2012
blackaeronaut Wrote:... You know, once Ben gets wind of what Mal's doing at Black Mesa, I'm pretty sure his first reaction is to get Bob on the line and go, "I think they got the right idea, but maybe they could use some help. You wrote about this stuff, after all."My counterpart's reaction is probably going to be something along the lines of, "Um, it's not like I actually have access to the research, you know... I just sorta made it up as I went along. If that's what you want me to do more of, then sure!"
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Bob Schroeck - 10-01-2012
Dartz Wrote:What I want to know is...For the purposes of Drunkard's Walk, I defined the power behind magic as a previously unknown fundamental force of the universe, accompanying http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... unfor.html]gravity, EM and the strong and weak forces. Insofar as EM, at least, can be blocked, it's at least possible.
Can this magical field be blocked? Like a Magic(Quantum?) Faraday Cage?
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Bob Schroeck - 10-01-2012
Rakhasa Wrote:The two fisrt limitations I would add are two or the three from Disney's Genie: Magic cannot resurrect the dead, and Magic cannot make people fall in love.No. Fenspace is part of the same metacontinuity as Drunkard's Walk, and resurrections are possible in at least some of the worlds Doug visits. And stories of love magic can be found in every part of the world -- how many varieties can be found in Harry Potter alone?
I agree with Ace about relying on Disney for our guidelines. They have had a history of warping folklore to fit their story needs. If you've ever read the original Aladdin, for instance, you'll know just how horribly nerfed the Disney genie is.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- HRogge - 10-01-2012
Bob Schroeck Wrote:For the purposes of Drunkard's Walk, I defined the power behind magic as a previously unknown fundamental force of the universe, accompanying http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... unfor.html]gravity, EM and the strong and weak forces. Insofar as EM, at least, can be blocked, it's at least possible.The Fen also have gravity manipulation (both with handwavium and some Fen with hardtech)... so gravity can be blocked to.
What I don't like about the Drunkard's Walk magic text is that you have to be born with the right genes to do magic... that will most likely kill the Wizard faction as soon as true magic is discovered.
Bob Schroeck Wrote:No. Fenspace is part of the same metacontinuity as Drunkard's Walk, and resurrections are possible in at least some of the worlds Doug visits.I disagree on this. Fenspace is (according all I have seen here on the Fenspace forum AND on the wiki) a project of its own. We are not restricted by anything external.
- Ace Dreamer - 10-01-2012
HRogge Wrote:So, do you think the Wizards would have a queue to be biomodded so that you get the magegift genes? [grin]Bob Schroeck Wrote:For the purposes of Drunkard's Walk, I defined the power behind magic as a previously unknown fundamental force of the universe, accompanying gravity, EM and the strong and weak forces. Insofar as EM, at least, can be blocked, it's at least possible.The Fen also have gravity manipulation (both with handwavium and some Fen with hardtech)... so gravity can be blocked to.
What I don't like about the Drunkard's Walk magic text is that you have to be born with the right genes to do magic... that will most likely kill the Wizard faction as soon as true magic is discovered.
Quote:I think you could claim that not all of "Drunkards Walk" is running on the same physical laws, or laws of magic. About the only thing you can be sure of is that Doug can get into and out of each of the worlds.Bob Schroeck Wrote:No. Fenspace is part of the same metacontinuity as Drunkard's Walk, and resurrections are possible in at least some of the worlds Doug visits.I disagree on this. Fenspace is (according all I have seen here on the
Fenspace forum AND on the wiki) a project of its own. We are not
restricted by anything external.
If he couldn't, he wouldn't still be walking! [grin]
Or, he's got divine blessings to help him over local "magic inconsistency" problems...
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind
- Dartz - 10-01-2012
Magitech solves that problem. Real Caster Guns as opposed to 20mm Vulcans.
And it might well be that some people have a natural predisposition to it unconsciously, while everyone else has to put the hours in and learn it and the mechanics from first principals. Like everything.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?
- Proginoskes - 10-01-2012
HRogge Wrote:What I don't like about the Drunkard's Walk magic text is that you have to be born with the right genes to do magic... that will most likely kill the Wizard faction as soon as true magic is discovered.I think it would be just fine to need the genetic magegift to do magic unassisted. If you don't have the inborn gift, you need to involve Handwavium. And like every other time Handwavium is involved, that causes... inconsistent results, shall we say.
Resurrections are theoretically possible, but (in Fenspace, at least) they always involve directly bargaining with The Three and/or Death Herself. Precious few Celestials are as personable as the ones Doug met in Tomodachi, and so far no Fenspace mage has successfully argued for continuing a life.
On a meta level, I think a story involving a resurrection should only be admitted to Fenspace Canon if there is unanimous agreement that it serves the setting well, and that the resurrection is critical to the story.
On the subject of "Love Magic", to say whether or not such a thing exists, we would first have to define "love". Good luck with that. Instead, I propose that emotion-warping magic of any kind is very fragile and requires either continuous effort or frequent upkeep. Irrational hatred is just as difficult to artificially create and maintain as blind devotion. EDIT: unless you're a manipulative bastard without equal already, and wouldn't even need magic to inflict self-sustaining irrational emotions. In that case, you could use magic to achieve results faster.
- Dakota - 10-01-2012
I'm interested in magitech myself, I think any early pure magitech shouldn't be more powerful then 'dane tech. I want to take Dakota this route post 2020, after he has a "Huh, that's odd." with one of his experimental hologram crystal focusing setups.
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Characters
Sabre Fang
Dakota
- HRogge - 10-01-2012
Dakota Wrote:I'm interested in magitech myself, I think any early pure magitech shouldn't be more powerful then 'dane tech. I want to take Dakota this route post 2020, after he has a "Huh, that's odd." with one of his experimental hologram crystal focusing setups.2020 is also the date the hardlight holograms Dakota invented together with a few catgirls on Christmas 2019 were finally reproduced the first time. I assume they built Dakota a hardlight projector of his own soon after...
I am not surprised he continued to experiment with holograms. *G*
- Dakota - 10-01-2012
HRogge Wrote:Actually Dakota goes for semi-softlight and continued softlight systems. Semi-softlight research leads to the Omni-tool MK-0 and other interactive setups that don't require full on hardlight.Dakota Wrote:I'm interested in magitech myself, I think any early pure magitech shouldn't be more powerful then 'dane tech. I want to take Dakota this route post 2020, after he has a "Huh, that's odd." with one of his experimental hologram crystal focusing setups.
2020 is also the date the hardlight holograms Dakota invented together with a few catgirls on Christmas 2019 were finally reproduced the first time. I assume they built Dakota a hardlight projector of his own soon after...
I am not surprised he continued to experiment with holograms. *G*
_______________________________________________________________
Characters
Sabre Fang
Dakota
- Ace Dreamer - 10-02-2012
With regard to magegift, I'd suggest use of the 5/90/5 rule.
This would have 5% of the population as 'naturals', who would be doing small-scale manipulations as part of their day-to-day life anyway - they might be 'lucky', they might have a talent area like painting - magegift is no substitute for training and hard practice in an area, just gives a bit of natural 'flare'. Note that "anti-mages", those with a talent for suppressing magic around them, are normally 'naturals'.
90% of the population are 'normals', they can train to use magic but it is a hard grind, and they need plenty of motivation to stick to it. Most normals only develop in one magical area, if at all, and they tend to rely on hard-trained skill and experience, rather than raw talent. Occasionally trauma might cause a particular magic area to develop, to quite an amazing degree, but this is 'distorted', and 'fragile'.
5% of the population are 'duds', and can (with difficulty) train to use magical items which provide the magical power, but are very unlikely to ever do more than one or two simple bits of magic themselves. Almost all of these have a compensating talent in some non-magical area.
One advantage of 'duds' over 'normals' is they don't show up quite so easily to magic-based senses, and magical defences tend to work better for them, as they don't have any magical talent which "sticks out" beyond the defences, and provides an avenue for attack. Magical tricks which depend on using the target's own magical power against them fail on duds, and some creatures of magic without physical senses just can't sense duds.
Edit: If you want to bias this for the population of the Wizards, you could increase the proportion of the 'naturals', to 10%, or even 15% (I wouldn't recommend any higher) - I've leave the proportion of 'duds' at 5%.
META: This doesn't directly affect any of the characters in stories written - they have the required magegift for the story. But, it gives background information about (potential) magical talent in the society in which you might set the story.
Just some suggestions...
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind