+- Drunkard's Walk Forums (http://www.accessdenied-rms.net/forums)
+-- Forum: General (http://www.accessdenied-rms.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=1)
+--- Forum: General Chatter (http://www.accessdenied-rms.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=2)
+--- Thread: Strong quake and tsunami hits Japan (/showthread.php?tid=10930)
- ordnance11 - 03-14-2011
Most of the particles should either drop to the ground or be be so spread out by the time it reaches the U.S Taht is if the plume reaches the jet stream.
They lost cooling capacity on a 3rd reactor (#2).
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
- Logan Darklighter - 03-14-2011
Rod H Wrote:The way the US press is obsessing over this and sensationalizing it as if it's about to blow Chernobyl-style is really starting to piss me off. Just last night I saw one "concerned environmentalist" talking heads opining that there was more nuclear fuel in those reactors than many many Hiroshima bombs. (I think he used the term 1000 Hiroshimas, I can't be sure though)Star Ranger4 Wrote:However, of much more concern to me, I fear this will be used to further vilify and pretty much completely kill off what little support nuclear power plants still had here and abroad
Well, that's all ready happening. Down here our 'green party', The Australian Greens' leadership have used the situation in Japan for a reason why they won't support a local nuke reactor - amongst a lot of things they won't support or wish to inflict upon us.
*FACEPALM* Of COURSE there is you MORON! But you're focusing on the WRONG THING!!! There's more fuel inside ANY nuclear reactor than inside any single nuclear bomb! It's the TYPE of fuel used and the WAY it's used that's important! Bastard is acting as if he thinks a nuclear power plant can BLOW UP like a nuclear bomb!
Or purposefully trying to give that impression in order to frighten the uneducated, which is far more likely. And far more reprehensible. And the gormless git of a presenter on the news is just just nodding and taking the bastard SERIOUSLY.
(Stopping here. I've got an entire rant on the way the environmentalists purposely vilify Nuclear power. But I don't want to derail this off into the politics thread.)
- Berk - 03-14-2011
There seems to be a misunderstanding about what the contents of a reactor vessel melting means.
This does not mean there is an earth-shattering kaboom. It does not mean that the contents of the reactor will melt all the way to the Earth's core. In reality, even if the reactor vessel were to be breached and the contents impacts the concrete under the vessel, the contents of the vessel will not remain hot enough, long enough, to burn through. Especially since the reactor has been scramed at this point.
The huge explosion at Chernobyl was caused by some genius thinking that putting a huge store of water under something as hot as hell, the fuel melted through the bottom of the vessel, (there was no concrete surrounding the vessel) hit the water and caused a blast. (For those familiar with Symphony of the Sword: Specific Heat!)
- Grumpy Uncle Gearhead
- ordnance11 - 03-14-2011
That's true. It also means you'll have a plume of radioactive material being released into the environment. Strontium,cesium, plutonium, etc. The equivalent of a dirty bomb being set off. And you have the probability of six of them going off. One would be bad enough...but six? Now so far the winds have been blowing off shore. Which is a good thing for the local population. If the winds go the other way...*shrug*. If a hyphothetical plume or plumes hits the jet stream..which goes eastward at about 500mph. Then you see the potential for the stuff hitting the West Coast..probably Oregon and Washington first.
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
- Berk - 03-14-2011
There is no plume.
The concrete containment structure is itself an enclosed space.
To put this into perspective, the decay heat of the fuel is dropping rapidly. Even if the fuel burned through the reaction vessel (unlikely) it would still have to escape a containment structure engineered to tank a direct hit from a 747.
- Grumpy Uncle Gearhead
- ordnance11 - 03-14-2011
Assuming the containment structure doesn't have any microfractures from the shaking it took. As I said before, I don't think the engineers at GE planned for what happened as a worse case scenario.
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
- Berk - 03-14-2011
Well, judging from the information I've heard from people with an ear to Japanese news feeds, radiation levels are within what is to be expected from an emergency steam purge (about like flying in an airplane from one coast to another, or living near a coal plant), and are falling instead of rising, so containment seems to be fine.
The thing that is giving them trouble is that the tsunami fouled up plumbing.
You can engineer for a Magnitude 9 quake. Ten meters of water coming in and carrying most of Sendai with it however is a bit more complicated.
- Grumpy Uncle Gearhead
- ordnance11 - 03-15-2011
Berk Wrote:Well, judging from the information I've heard from people with an ear to Japanese news feeds, radiation levels are within what is to be expected from an emergency steam purge (about like flying in an airplane from one coast to another, or living near a coal plant), and are falling instead of rising, so containment seems to be fine.Yeah, but these containment structures where engineered for a 7.5 quake. Not 9.0 Now here's something mull over. There are two reactors in California, Diablo Canyon and San Onofre. Both of which are with 60 miles of the San Andreas fault. And Diablo Canyon is within 1 mile of a smaller fault. I hope PG&E updates their emergency action plan.
The thing that is giving them trouble is that the tsunami fouled up plumbing.
You can engineer for a Magnitude 9 quake. Ten meters of water coming in and carrying most of Sendai with it however is a bit more complicated.
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
One hell of a design flaw - ordnance11 - 03-15-2011
They kept the fuel tanks for the diesel generators above ground? In the middle of seismic hot spot?
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
- SilverFang01 - 03-15-2011
Another explosion just heard at Fukushima.
From the BBC Tweet:
2316: Kyodo now says that the suppression pool may have been damaged at reactor 2.
2320: A spokesperson from Tokyo Electric says said some staff have been evacuated from the site.
2333: More
details on the reported blast at Fukushima's reactor 2. The explosion
is feared to have damaged the reactor's pressure-suppression system,
Kyodo says. It adds that "radiation tops legal limit" after the
explosion.
Tokyo Electric officials are now holding a news briefing. They say
the blast at reactor 2 happened "near the pressure vessel". They also
confirm that some staff at the nuclear power plant are being evacuated.
Also from Bad Astronomy blog: http://blogs.discovermaga...ar-reactor-overreaction/
- ordnance11 - 03-15-2011
That means another hydrogen explosion. Dang it, you'd have though these guys would had figured out a way of preventing the H2 from exceeding the LEL (lower explosive level) after the first two explosions. And how many workers dead and injured this time?
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
- SilverFang01 - 03-15-2011
What I want to know is how the affected pressure system affects the cooling operations. Will they allow the reactor to melt or try to keep pumping water to minimize the meltdown?
- ordnance11 - 03-15-2011
Allowing the reactor to melt is not going to be an option. A full meltdown of the core is not a good outcome.
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
- Berk - 03-15-2011
Allowing the fuel rods to melt is not a good outcome because it's an enormous pain in the ass to clean up after the fact.
Thankfully, if I'm reading the figures right, after the initial flareup of radiation after the second hydrogen explosion at Reactor 2, counters started dropping back towards normal levels quickly.
- Grumpy Uncle Gearhead
- ordnance11 - 03-15-2011
Berk, the problem is that the water is boiling away faster than they can replace it. Worse, the latest explosion in #2 may have breached the torus or suppression pool..which happens to be at the bottom of the containment. How big a breach or how much water is leaking out out? And what happens when the water level gets lower and uncovers the fuel rods even partially? I get the feeling that the operators at the site are steadily losing ground.
Edit: This just in 1 hour ago..the 4th reactor caught fire...
Not good
This has gone beyond TMI now.
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
- Berk - 03-15-2011
As far as I know, the 4th reactor didn't catch fire, the building the 4th reactor was in caught fire (briefly). The 4th reactor had been offline since November for inspection and the fuel had been removed and added to the storage pool.
Now what IS worrisome is that the 4th building is being used for rod storage for the other reactors.
Fortunately, the rods are supposed to be stored under water in a storage pool while they cool down (in a radioactive sense) so they can be moved somewhere for reprocessing.
(Still looking up more info, it's early.)
- Grumpy Uncle Gearhead
- Dartz - 03-15-2011
Meanwhile in America...
I like to think she's trolling. I hope she's trolling. But trolls aren't this..... there isn't a word in the English language for whatever the hell she is.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?
- Berk - 03-15-2011
Heard about her. She has a lot of other videos foaming at the mouth about other things.
I don't care if she's a troll or not, she's a waste of oxygen.
- Grumpy Uncle Gearhead
- ordnance11 - 03-15-2011
Berk Wrote:As far as I know, the 4th reactor didn't catch fire, the building the 4th reactor was in caught fire (briefly). The 4th reactor had been offline since November for inspection and the fuel had been removed and added to the storage pool.And it's being reported that the storage pool is boiling...you only got 50 employees fighting the situation fighting a crisi in 4 reactors.
Now what IS worrisome is that the 4th building is being used for rod storage for the other reactors.
Fortunately, the rods are supposed to be stored under water in a storage pool while they cool down (in a radioactive sense) so they can be moved somewhere for reprocessing.
(Still looking up more info, it's early.)
BTW,
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42084187/ns ... a-pacific/
It's now offical..It's now been declared by 6 out of 7 by the French ASN. I do note the IEA is keeping mum. The japanese will have to start prepping for the final step. Entombing all the reactors in concrete ala Chernobyl while the containment is still holding. May or may not be needed, but better get ready as a final step because it's going to take time to assemble men, machines and materials for that task.
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
- Wiregeek - 03-15-2011
http://www.businessinside...tors-pose-no-risk-2011-3
"No can brain today. Want cheezeburger."
From NGE: Nobody Dies, by Gregg Landsman
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5579457/1/NGE_Nobody_Dies
- ordnance11 - 03-15-2011
It' a very good piece. Precise and very well written from a scientific point of view. I do have one small problem with it. It doesn't address the human response to the problem. Like why did those in charge decide to vent the steam inside the containment building the 2nd and successive times instead of straight out into the atmosphere, knowing you're running the risk of an explosion in an enclosed space?
And this just in from the website of that piece:
Update 12:09: IAEA's director general Yukiya Amano: New information about reactor core is "worrying." That headline is via Bloomberg.
Some other details from a press conference:
- The suppression chamber at unit #2 appears to be damaged.
- The cause of the fire at unit #4 is unknown.
- The Japanese government has been asked to improve its information sharing with the IAEA
Update 9:36: To add insult to injury, Japan was just hit with another 6.2 earthquake, and buildings in Tokyo are said to be shaking.
Update 9:14: Another horrible headline from Kyodo Wire: TEPCO unable to pour water into No. 4 reactor's storage pool for spent fuel
Update 8:35: Via ForexLive, TEPCO is saying that spent fuel rods in reactor #4 are exposed to the air. That sounds horrible.
Update 8:16: The radiation is too high for TEPCO workers to stay in the control room says KYODO WIRE.
Update 7:47 AM: France: The nuclear crisis is now a level-6 crisis on a scale of 7.
Update 7:10 3/15: According to reports, a frustrated Naoto Kan asked TEPCO execs "What the hell is going on?"
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
- Wiregeek - 03-15-2011
I apologize in advance for the incredibly horrible layout of the linked website.
(link to jalopnik.com)
http://mitnse.com/
http://allthingsnuclear.org/tagged/Japan_nuclear
and finally, a few things more important than a couple of hot rocks in a neat stack.
http://depletedcranium.com/
(Edit by Bob to fix the Jalopnik link.)
"No can brain today. Want cheezeburger."
From NGE: Nobody Dies, by Gregg Landsman
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5579457/1/NGE_Nobody_Dies
- Wiregeek - 03-15-2011
Quote:Because nuclear fuel is so energy dense, we can afford to wrap it up in numerous layers of engineered materials that protect the public even in the rare event of an earthquake that measures 9.0 on the Richter scale that is followed in close succession by a 30 foot high tsunami wave that wipes out emergency power supplies. We have known how to do that for a long time; even the 40 year old plants with 50-60 year old technology are coming through without harming the public. When nature throw all of that at you and the worst that happens is that you lose the services of a few industrial facilities for a while, you have a pretty darned resilient technology.
http://www.atomicinsights.blogspot.com/
"No can brain today. Want cheezeburger."
From NGE: Nobody Dies, by Gregg Landsman
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5579457/1/NGE_Nobody_Dies
- ordnance11 - 03-16-2011
Coming from CNN: There's a new fire in the northeast corner of the containment building of Reactor #4 as of 1 hour ago. If the fuel casings melt and expose more fuel....400msv radiation count near Reactor #4.
Now they only have 50 staff on site..battling multiple crisis. Reactors #5 and 6 temperatures are rising.
TEPCO had better start calling for technical teams to give them a hand. 50 guys are not going to be able to handle 6 ongoing crisis simultaneously.
Edit: The Japanese government is shifting their focus from search and rescue to helping those alive. I can't fault them. But.....*heavy sigh*
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
- Sofaspud - 03-16-2011
... and that 400mSv count has already fallen, now hovering around 0.6mSv/hour. The "per hour" is important, too.
Quote:...From iaea.org.
At 00:00 UTC on 15 March a dose rate of 11.9 millisieverts (mSv) per
hour was observed. Six hours later, at 06:00 UTC on 15 March a dose rate
of 0.6 millisieverts (mSv) per hour was observed.
These observations indicate that the level of radioactivity has been decreasing at the site.
As reported earlier, a 400 millisieverts (mSv) per hour radiation dose
observed at Fukushima Daiichi occurred between Units 3 and 4. This is a
high dose-level value, but it is a local value at a single location and
at a certain point in time....
I've been staying out of this thread because Berk has been doing an awesome job derailing the OMG PANIC tone. But really. I'm not calling you out, ordnance, so much as I am simply wondering why you seem to feel the need to promote a fatalistic and unrealistic scenario. The situation is bad, yes. No doubt. But you're cherry-picking the worst and presenting it as badly as the mass media is.
For the record, 0.6mSv is roughly the same as 5-8 chest x-rays. Also, that was local measurements. It has not gone airborne and likely won't, and the fire that promoted that local measurement has been extinguished.
The real crisis (crises!) here is not one reactor that is doing exactly what it was designed to do and keeping radiation contained even in the event of disaster greater than it had been designed for, but rather, the people who are suffering -- from lack of food and water, from lack of power, from injuries and loss of property, from all of the rest of it. The reactor is dying -- dead, even -- but it's doing its duty, as are the people on staff, and it's not going to cause any long-term serious harm. More than likely it's not even going to cause any short-term serious harm.
In short... relax, man. It's okay. It's not that big a deal. Seriously.
--sofaspud
--"Listening to your kid is the audio equivalent of a Salvador Dali painting, Spud." --OpMegs