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+--- Thread: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" (/showthread.php?tid=12583)
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - Black Aeronaut - 03-22-2018
(03-22-2018, 06:02 PM)Labster Wrote:Quote:Guns may not be owned by anyone under the age of 21, unless currently serving in the armed forces. Parents that wish to take their children shooting must have additional training and have their gun license show the a 'family' endorsement, or to a certified firing range. Anyone under the age of 21 is not to be permitted to use a firearm unless under supervision by qualified individuals. No exceptions, not even for hunting - when hunting the buddy system should apply regardless!!!I don't understand this logic at all. Either an 18 year old can be trusted with a gun or they can't. If they can't then we need to raise the age for admission to the armed forces to 21. I'm aware that this would be a recruiting nightmare, but hey, at least it would allow the U.S. to join the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child. Look who's the odd one out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child#/media/File:Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child.svg
But yeah, guns and motor vehicles in a similar category to me -- both useful tools that if misused can very easily result in death, and thus should be regulated. The government knows where every street legal car is, who owns it, and who is allowed to drive it. A similar approach to guns seems reasonable.
While I kind of approve of the rest of your rant, there's very few details on what the REAL PROBLEM is. Do you mean mental illness? Domestic violence against women? What kind of mental illness? The majority of gun deaths in the United States are suicides, so maybe depression? How much of that depression is caused by environmental causes, like poverty or drugs? The second most common cause of gun deaths is accidents. Do we need to add more training, and if so is that training even effective? Gun deaths decrease nationwide during NRA conventions, typically held in convention centers that don't allow firearms, so one has to wonder if the current training is effective. Or are you talking about mass shootings, which often involve some sort of radicalization. So do we try to improve social bonds in our communities? Investigate people who make thoughtcrime google searches?
I mean, it's like WTF are we supposed to fix?
In regards to the no gun ownership under 21 thing, it felt like a safe spot - similar to the no alcohol for under 21 law. And the reason that being in the armed forces would be the exception is that by the time you get through basic training you're trusted to be able to take care of your own weapon should one be issued to you. You've gone through the training, you're very well aware of the dangers, and if you have made it through then you're generally considered to be mentally sound because Basic Training is intended to weed out head cases. (Not that they're treated badly if they just can't hack it mentally - they're given a medical discharge, which is the same as an honorable discharge, only it explains why you got discharged so early. The point is you gave it an honest shot and that is to be respected.)
As for what's wrong? Well, I will admit, it is a broad spectrum of things. Look at all the motives we've had. Racism and Hate, heartbreak gone too far, psychotic disorders, sociopathic mentality, revenge for perceived wrongdoings, and even just some morally challenged kids that want their fifteen seconds of fame.
For this kind of epidemic, a broad spectrum treatment is needed. First and foremost, the mental healthcare system needs to become a robust entity in this nation - perhaps even to the extent that it has its own department within the federal government. This, I feel, is something that we can no longer be without. It is clearly obvious that there are severe mental health issues in this nation.
The hell of it is that we already have general procedures in place for early detection of mental health issues, but they're often ignored - they're as simple as your general practitioner how you've been feeling aside from the physical sense. But a lot of people cannot afford to have a primary care doctor due to health insurance being so expensive.
Secondly, we need to raise awareness that if someone says on social media or in message boards that they're going to kill a bunch of people, then it must be taken seriously. So many of these shootings could have been headed off entirely if people on social media did not simply blow it off as internet drama or someone just out to troll other netizens.
I already mentioned before that I strongly feel that everyone must display competence in handling firearms. If needs be, we can break these down into classifications, such as handguns, shotguns, rifles, and military weapons, as well as an option for single-shot restriction (an action must be manually worked to load the next round or a new round manually loaded after ever shot) or full automatic endorsement (permits use of fully automatic weapons - typically only given to militiamen) with the neutral ground being semi-automatics. Additionally, there I would suggest endorsements for 'Parent/Guardian' (which allows a parent to take their child hunting or to a shooting range and that they accept full responsibility for the actions of their child) and 'Range Supervisor'.
The classes should all be formalized, standardized, and mandatory - no skirting the boundaries. You will sit the required courses and take the required examinations, both written and practical.
Finally, spousal abuse must be addressed more directly, and preferably a part of what the mental health system covers. If a spouse comes into a hospital with injuries that look even the least bit suspicious, a trained psychiatrist should be brought in immediately to assess the situation. And if there is indeed a situation, the next natural thing would be to check the firearms registry.
As for removing firearms from a household that has a dangerous element, I would suggest that the ATF have a system where they can store weapons temporarily. The owners will retain ownership and the ATF will see to the weapons upkeep until such a time that the situation has been resolved or the owner decides to sell the weapons.
I never expected this to be a simple answer, as this is really a situation that there are no easy answers for. So by all means...
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - SilverFang01 - 03-24-2018
Wow...just...wow
https://twitter.com/nbcnews/status/977620153847435264?s=21
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - Rajvik - 03-24-2018
oh my fucking gods save me from well meaning idiots, the people pointing out things in history are right and the people arguing against them that "It won't happen here" are wrong for the simple reason of EVERYONE THINKS IT WON"T HAPPEN TO THEM. That's part of the fucking problem
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - SilverFang01 - 03-25-2018
The thought has occurred to me that all those "thoughts and prayers" that some people like to use in lieu of actually doing something?
Maybe God has answered those prayers. He has strengthened the heart of those kids so that they can carry on the fight, and get those of us who were demoralized back into it. At least it has restored my spirits.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - robkelk - 03-26-2018
Bushmaster AR-15 gun maker Remington files for bankruptcy
Considering that practically everybody who wanted firearms stocked up when they thought the Democrats were going to win (and thus sales have been slow over the last year), I'm surprised it took this long after the Sandy Hook shooting for them to have unrecoverable financial trouble.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - Bob Schroeck - 03-26-2018
I'm wondering what new scare tactic the NRA is going to come up with to make people buy more guns, because you know this has to have them frantic about other companies going under.
Of course, bankruptcy doesn't mean "out of business", and from what I've already read earlier this morning they aren't closing up shop, at least not yet. But the idea that not enough people are buying guns just to let Remington break even has got to be panicking the "Exercise your Constitutional right to enrich us" crowd. Expect to see more videos demonizing people who don't want to be shot by random lunatics and trumpeting that a dozen dead kids every few months is a small enough price pay to be free.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - SilverFang01 - 03-26-2018
(03-26-2018, 11:34 AM)Bob Schroeck Wrote: Expect to see more videos demonizing people who don't want to be shot by random lunatics and trumpeting that a dozen dead kids every few months is a small enough price pay to be free.
Actually, that would be a more honest argument than what we have been getting from that crowd.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - robkelk - 03-26-2018
(03-26-2018, 11:34 AM)Bob Schroeck Wrote: I'm wondering what new scare tactic the NRA is going to come up with to make people buy more guns, because you know this has to have them frantic about other companies going under.
Of course, bankruptcy doesn't mean "out of business", and from what I've already read earlier this morning they aren't closing up shop, at least not yet. ...
Since there might be some folks here who only read the first few sentences in a story, I'll quote the final six paragraphs here - just so we're all on the same page.
Quote:In 2017, firearm background checks — a good barometer of sales — declined faster than in any year since 1998, when the FBI first began compiling that data.
But there were clear signs that gun sales, even as production increased, were already in decline. By 2015 Colt Holdings Co., another storied gun maker, had filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.
Profit growth at Sturm, Ruger & Co. is under severe pressure and the company's shares are down 18 per cent this year.
Some of Wall Street's heaviest hitters are stepping into the national debate on guns as investment firms ask firearms makers what they are doing about gun violence.
BlackRock is a major shareholder in gun makers Sturm Ruger, American Outdoor Brands and Vista Outdoor Brands. About a week after the shooting in Parkland, BlackRock said it wanted to speak with the three firearms makers about their responses to the tragedy.
It's also looking into creating new investment funds for investors that exclude firearms makers and retailers.
Yes, the people who put the Almighty Dollar ahead of human lives have reason to be worried.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - Dartz - 03-26-2018
Government Baillouts, inbound.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - robkelk - 03-26-2018
Oh, probably. Wasn't there an increase in military spending in the most recent US budget?
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - Labster - 03-27-2018
Indeed it was increased. Doubt it will be much help -- most military spending doesn't go to guns or God forbid actual servicemembers, but to build cool big toys. I hope y'all want a brand new missile shield, people!
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - robkelk - 04-03-2018
BREAKING: "Active shooter" reported at Youtube HQ
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - Bob Schroeck - 04-03-2018
The local CBS affiliate is reporting that there are "casualties" and that the local hospital confirms receiving patients, but not how many or in what condition.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - SilverFang01 - 04-03-2018
And trolls are already filling social media with their junk.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - Bob Schroeck - 04-03-2018
Okay, three wounded, the only death was the shooter, who killed herself. Yes, herself, an unusual case of a female shooter. No motive is apparent, although she seems to have known at least one of the victims.
CNN story here.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - robkelk - 04-03-2018
(04-03-2018, 07:13 PM)Bob Schroeck Wrote: Okay, three wounded, the only death was the shooter, who killed herself. Yes, herself, an unusual case of a female shooter. No motive is apparent, although she seems to have known at least one of the victims.As of 7:56PM Eastern time, CBC News was reporting one dead (possibly the shooter) and four injured.
CNN story here.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - Rajvik - 04-03-2018
As of 10pm eastern, 3 with gunshot wounds, 1 twisted ankle and the shooter dead by self inflicted gunshot wound.. Comments have been that it was domestic by the woman against her boyfriend
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - Bob Schroeck - 04-04-2018
Okay, she's been identified as Nasim Aghdam, a disgruntled YouTube poster who felt she was being censored. After posting rants about how her videos had been taken down by YouTube and how she'd been denied some monetization she thought was coming to her, she basically took off to get revenge. One news story here.
The thing that gets me is that when she took off, her parents told authorities -- and police along the way found her sleeping in her car on the way to Mountain View, but let her go. Someone's going to get raked over the coals for that.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - Labster - 04-04-2018
Yeah, of all the things I was expecting from the YouTube attack, Vegan Terrorist was not one of them. It's only a matter of days before Trump tweets that all school lunches will be required to have meat, to prevent our kids from being raised the wrong way.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - DHBirr - 04-04-2018
(04-04-2018, 03:43 PM)Labster Wrote: Yeah, of all the things I was expecting from the YouTube attack, Vegan Terrorist was not one of them. It's only a matter of days before Trump tweets that all school lunches will be required to have meat, to prevent our kids from being raised the wrong way.
Ham, pork, and bacon ... to support Iowa during the Chinese tariffs.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - robkelk - 04-04-2018
(04-04-2018, 05:08 PM)DHBirr Wrote:(04-04-2018, 03:43 PM)Labster Wrote: Yeah, of all the things I was expecting from the YouTube attack, Vegan Terrorist was not one of them. It's only a matter of days before Trump tweets that all school lunches will be required to have meat, to prevent our kids from being raised the wrong way.
Ham, pork, and bacon ... to support Iowa during the Chinese tariffs.
And inconvenience anyone of any of the Abrahamic faiths other than Christianity. (Of course, there are likely some fundamentalist Christians who don't see that as a problem.)
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - DHBirr - 04-05-2018
(04-04-2018, 05:20 PM)robkelk Wrote:Problem?! It's a FEATURE !!! ("Multiple exclamation points ... are a sure sign of a diseased mind.")(04-04-2018, 05:08 PM)DHBirr Wrote:(04-04-2018, 03:43 PM)Labster Wrote: Yeah, of all the things I was expecting from the YouTube attack, Vegan Terrorist was not one of them. It's only a matter of days before Trump tweets that all school lunches will be required to have meat, to prevent our kids from being raised the wrong way.
Ham, pork, and bacon ... to support Iowa during the Chinese tariffs.
And inconvenience anyone of any of the Abrahamic faiths other than Christianity. (Of course, there are likely some fundamentalist Christians who don't see that as a problem.)
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - SilverFang01 - 04-07-2018
This did not go so well for them the last time:
South Carolina GOP introduce bill to secede from US over gun rights hill.cm/k02ENDT
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - Rajvik - 04-07-2018
Alright, now someone is just fragging grandstanding.
It won't make it past committee, and even if it does there are enough liberals in their statehouse that it wouldn't pass.
That said, I commiserate with the sentiment.
RE: "It's always too soon to talk about gun control" - robkelk - 04-07-2018
Quoting from the article: "South Carolina became the first state to secede from the Union in the lead up to the Civil War, withdrawing in 1860."
Those who fail to learn from history...