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+---- Thread: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part II (/showthread.php?tid=988)
- robkelk - 12-27-2013
GethN7 Wrote:...One can analyze the body of a creator's work, can one not?
Analysis - No. This applies to works, not creators
...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- Bob Schroeck - 12-27-2013
I agree with Rob. Analysis would be the place to go into, say, Jack Chalker's absolute obsession with body- and gender-changing. Other than that, Geth, I think you've specced out the basic assortment about as well as I would have, had I not forgotten to do so after posting that query.
On another topic, we seem to have something seriously broken with headers, in two ways.
First, it appears that the import conversion inverted header levels -- highest-level headers got tagged with lower-level coding and vice-versa.
Second, and much more important: It appears that just using the first-level headers -- the ones coded =Like This= -- break the style/layout for the page at some point during the render. Take a look at http://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/Sli ... nti-Heroes]Sliding Scale of Anti-Heroes, which I just spent a while re-coding. In particular, look at what happens when the section for Type III anti-heroes transitions from =Level One= to ==Level Two==.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Labster - 12-28-2013
Well... it didn't actually invert headers. It's more complicated than that. There were too many header styles. So this is how Main.PublicDomainArtifact was:
Quote:!!!Egyptian-- ∇×V
[[folder: Book of the Dead]The Egyptian ''Book of the Dead'' has seen occasional use (
- GethN7 - 12-28-2013
I agree with Bob, Rob, and Vorticity on the Analysis pages.
In other news, we now have preloaded page templates you can select anytime you click on a red link. The templates for the preloaded pages are in the MediaWiki namespace, so they can only be altered by administrators (this is to prevent vandalism). Also, the names of some of the MediaWiki templates are deliberately in Camel Case (i.e. - NightmareFuel) to prevent text display oddness in the MediaWiki:Newarticletext page.
I have also moved all commonly used templates to the ATT Templates category (with a link to it on the Recent Changes page), and the documentation for the same is in the ATT Template Documentation category. These two categories we created so we could localize all the templates and their documentation in one location (they were spread all over the template namespace and multiple categories before)
Finally, I have added a decent Haiku subpage icon and fixed up some oversights on the Tropes template.
I had a few more changes to make, but this is it for awhile.
I had to redo it once due to a botched upload, but it should be working now.
Report any errors if you find any, and I hope this works well for everyone.
- Tennie - 12-29-2013
I just want to mention that I was looking around ATT, and I noticed that the "Weirdest Inbound Link of the Day" page was an archived version from TVT. I'd suggest doing what we did with the "Made of Win" archive: relink this as the TVT archive and create a new one for ATT.
- Bob Schroeck - 12-29-2013
Okay, the {{creator}} template has been created, using Geth's basic idea + Analysis -- if it turns out later there are subpages we want or don't want, we can change it easily enough. I'm going to start going through the contents of the http://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/Category:Creator]Creator category and changing things manually, but I'm sure before I get too far Brent or Geth will whomp up a bot to do the job.
Okay, now that that's taken care of, time for me to be a troublemaker (again): Should we distinguish between creators (writers, composers, directors, producers, etc.) and artists (actors, singers, etc.)?
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- robkelk - 12-29-2013
Bob Schroeck Wrote:Okay, now that that's taken care of, time for me to be a troublemaker (again): Should we distinguish between creators (writers, composers, directors, producers, etc.) and artists (actors, singers, etc.)?Can we tag people who are both (e.g. singer-songwriter Neil Young, or seiyuu-director Hideki Anno) as both?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- Bob Schroeck - 12-29-2013
Mm. Multiple navbars would be messy-looking; I wonder if we could get them to merge automagically...
It also occurs to me that neither creator nor artist is appropriate for entities like Activision and the BBC...
Edit: Maybe we need to rethink the subpages, because I'm not 20 creators into the list and I'm finding things we didn't think were appropriate. Agatha Christie has both YMMV and Fanfic pages, for example, and Activision has WMG entries.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Labster - 12-29-2013
Agatha Christie is a weird page, which has some creator tropes an=long with describing a set of works. It could be tagged as Category:Creator, but use the {{work}} subpage list. I guess. I think what I'd like to do for some of the edge cases is to have the {{work/creator/trope}} templates take parameters, so items could be added.
Are the creator pages for talking about a person or group's personal history? Are they about their body of work? Both? Neither? I don't have a lot of idea on this one, so I'm going to stay mostly out of the discussion.
-- ∇×V
- Bob Schroeck - 12-30-2013
Maybe we could make a master template, the way asbox works for stubs. We create a specific template by invoking the master with the desired subpages, while allowing for parameters to specify additional ones above and beyond those specified.
As for Creator pages themselves, I didn't get out of the As today because I had family obligations (tho' I managed, thanks to my tablet, to modify a lot of pages while watching Christmas specials on DVD). However, I came across five more pages (Adult Swim, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Alan Moore, Artix Entertainment, and Augsberger Puppenkiste) beyond Agatha Christie that had "extras". That's something like, what, 10% of the pages? We need to accommodate them somehow, if that proportion holds through the rest of the tagged creators.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- GethN7 - 12-30-2013
Vorticity and I have been in discussions about a policy change we'd like to make, and while we agree its a good idea, we wanted an opinion first.
We would like to disable anonymous editing via IP address and make people register an account, for the following reasons:
1. Anon editors have no reason whatsoever to follow any rules nor are bound to follow them (it's implied) unless they sign in with an account, where such an agreement is made explicit.
2. Better spam protection. We've had a few spam IPs show up on ATT, and this would further frustrate anonymous spammers.
3. Better integration with specific features: Some pages require signing your username or may require this, and IP addresses are a very poor means of identification.
Before we request such a change, we'd like to hear any opinions you guys might have on this.
- Bob Schroeck - 12-30-2013
As I recall, I made a comment to this effect shortly after the wiki went on-line in early November. I'm for it.
-- Bob
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Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- robkelk - 12-30-2013
One cannot provide proper attribution (as required by the CC-BY license) if one does not know who to attribute. This makes sense to me.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- nylor - 12-30-2013
Makes sense to me.
- Morganite - 12-30-2013
I was frankly surprised you hadn't done that from the start.
- GethN7 - 12-30-2013
We wanted to so so from day one, but it somehow never got implemented.
Thankfully, the Orain staff will be fixing that as well as a few other things soon.
- Bob Schroeck - 12-31-2013
Hm. We had a bunch of edits late last night by an anonymous user at ?71.56.62.169 deleting stuff mostly about Complete Monster accusations against characters. I don't know much about the works in question (Pokemon, Gundam, Kung Fu Panda), so I'd appreciate it if someone who did could please take at look at what he wiped and determine if it was justified or the act of a single-issue wonk. Thanks!
Edit: I belatedly see that Geth reverted the changes on two of the pages, but that still six others...
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Morganite - 12-31-2013
Not familiar with the properties in question either, but I'm pretty sure that's not the right way to go about it for things that are YMMV items anyway.
-Morgan.
- GethN7 - 12-31-2013
Morganni Wrote:Not familiar with the properties in question either, but I'm pretty sure that's not the right way to go about it for things that are YMMV items anyway.
-Morgan.
However, the last thing I want to do is get to the point of compulsively locking pages like on TVT. By eliminating anonymous editing (which the Orain guys are working on), we should be able to handle this sort of thing by simply having less asinine rules than TVT and encouraging those with dissenting opinions to make better use of the talk pages. Also, by eliminating anon editing and having rules against sockpuppeting/meatpuppeting, we should be able to get a better handle on edit warring aside from locking pages like crazy.
If anyone would like to make suggestions for ATT's YMMV pages policy, I'm all ears.
- Labster - 12-31-2013
Well... the downside of turning off anonymous editing is that it discourages new contributions. Some people want to contribute once, and then just keep reading. On Wikipedia, people can know one thing about a narrow topic, contribute something useful, and fade away. My guess is that we have just enough jargon that this kind of drive-by editing is less useful, though. The subject matter is commonly known, but the type of literary analysis we do is not. Plus registration has a side effect of making it easier to build a community. (But yes, it's the deletionist anon editor that finally convinced me to change.)
New question for the writers in the room. How should we handle the case of trope names? This is a style guide question. And therefore, it's going to be arbitrary, as different style guides have different results. Capitalizing every word feels unnatural, even if that is the style on TVT. For Wikipedia editors, they like to lowercase everything, and I've had that suggest to me several times. That's a possibility, though that might feel unnatural to those of us who left TVT. So we're left with title case, which is implemented differently in different style guides. Anyone got a favorite?
-- ∇×V
- Bob Schroeck - 12-31-2013
The APA style laid out at grammar.about.com seems closest to "natural" for me. It also seems to match the common usage for work titles with embedded colons, like "Vampire: The Masquerade", where the first word after the colon is capitalized regardless what the rule for it might be elsewhere in the title. If that part is mentioned in the others, I missed it during my admittedly quick readthrough.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Bob Schroeck - 12-31-2013
Found another TVTropes graphic, although this time it wasn't on display, thanks to a template error: tvtropeseightiesidents_1921.png on http://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/Vanity_Plate]Vanity Plate. It's currently commented out so it's not on display. If we want to reproduce the gag -- an ATT vanity plate on that page -- we'll need an appropriate graphic. Or we can just nuke it.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- robkelk - 12-31-2013
Bob Schroeck Wrote:Found another TVTropes graphic, although this time it wasn't on display, thanks to a template error: tvtropeseightiesidents_1921.png on http://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/Vanity_Plate. It's currently commented out so it's not on display. If we want to reproduce the gag -- an ATT vanity plate on that page -- we'll need an appropriate graphic. Or we can just nuke it.
EDIT: As for the graphic in question, why not just replace it with File:ATT Main Page logo.png ?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- Morganite - 01-02-2014
vorticity Wrote:How should we handle the case of trope names? This is a style guide question. And therefore, it's going to be arbitrary, as different style guides have different results. Capitalizing every word feels unnatural, even if that is the style on TVT. For Wikipedia editors, they like to lowercase everything, and I've had that suggest to me several times. That's a possibility, though that might feel unnatural to those of us who left TVT. So we're left with title case, which is implemented differently in different style guides. Anyone got a favorite?
I tend to feel that if you're proposing to change something that people are already comfortable with, there should be a compelling advantage to making that change. And personally, I'm not seeing the advantage here.
-Morgan.
- Bob Schroeck - 01-02-2014
Just a note -- along with everything else I'm doing as a matter of course (adding punctuation to page names, fixing image/caption problems, typo/grammar fixes, scattering nuggets of golden knowledge from my vast store ), I'm now starting to look for potentially-infringing images (like http://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/Fil ... y_2945.png]this one). I'll comment them out of the pages where they're found, until we can determine what to do with them (that one came from http://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/Sto ... mage_Links]Stop Helping Me/Image Links). I'll post links to them here so we can thrash out what to do with them. For instance, the one I linked to above, is it worth editing to change the text on it to ATT? Or would that still be an infringement?
I also want to note, btw, that we have dozens, if not hundreds, of images that have TVTropes in their names for no apparent reason...
Edit: And dammit, now I want to rename them all. Because the same couple dozen keep coming up over and over in the search results. Why the hell does the search do that?
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.