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What the FUCK, Marvel? - robkelk - 04-27-2017
Today's Dork Tower has a link to this blog post.
There's a confirming story on Time's website, so this doesn't look like a hoax to me.
What the FUCK, Marvel?
Captain America is your "moral compass" character. You don't pull this kind of shit with the "moral compass" character - unless you're changing the moral tone of the entire company.
So... either they're incompetent storytellers or they're taking a moral stance that I find unacceptable.
I was looking forward to seeing Guardians of the Galaxy 2 in a theatre this summer, but that would involve giving Marvel some of my money - and I suddenly don't want to give Marvel any of my money any more.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- Bob Schroeck - 04-27-2017
Without even following the links, I know exactly what you're reacting to. And no, it's not a hoax. It appears to be someone's idea of "dramatic plot twist", or perhaps an attempt at making Captain America "darker and edgier".
Ten to one in a year's time we'll see frantic backpedalling, retconning, and explanations along the line of "it was really an evil twin/clone/impostor".
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- robkelk - 04-27-2017
No bet. But I won't knowingly be giving the company any more of my money.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- LynnInDenver - 04-27-2017
It reminds me of when they decided to attempt to make The Doctor have a screwed up regeneration that he'd have to walk himself back to being a decent sapient... and the writers were not up to the challenge. And combine this with the character's origins, and the current political climate, and it falls into the World Of Nope Shouldn't Have Done That. And clearly someone at Parent Disney has NOT been paying attention to what's been going on.
And I agree with "sudden lack of desire to see Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 2". Is it mildly unfair? Yes.
BTW, when I first heard about the whole "really a secret Hydra agent" thing, I was in the middle of playing LEGO Marvel Avengers. I had already finished the story mode, but I pretty quickly fell off on the idea of finishing the side stuff. And I'm probably not buying any more LEGO Marvel stuff, not from Traveler's Tales (who are firmly in "shut up and take my money" territory), or from LEGO. This is definitely unfair on a number of levels.
--
"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor
- Matrix Dragon - 04-27-2017
I'd say support movie Marvel. Back when Ike Perlmutter, the head of Marvel Comics, a loud, very narrowminded Trump supporter/advisor, and from all reports, a complete asshole of a person, started pulling this shit, folks at Marvel Studios took notice and took action. They're two entirely different companies, and have been for a while. Perlmutter's mostly still got his authority at Comics thanks to some truly bizarre legal horseshit he pulled back in the 90s, when Marvel was declaring bankruptcy and making all sorts of weird deals to survive. He can't touch Marvel Studios, at all. Chris Evans has been loudly and publicly slapping Marvel Comics over this, as have a lot of other people involved in the movies.
But yes, this is a thing that's happening. It's been going on for a while now, and trust me, the fanbase has been screaming bloody murder. Perlmutter and his minions, Captain America writer Nick Spencer among them, know damn well what they're doing, and are trying to blame crashing comic sales on fans not embracing 'diversity'. No one is buying it. Hell, there is a full blown civil war going on in the marvel offices themselves, with at least half the writing, artist and editorial staff blatantly displaying their disgust at it in the comics that are being released. That's not stopping the assholes, but it's getting noticed. PR stunts are backfiring, like their recent attempt to have comic stores deck themselves in Hydra gear having comic store owners literally telling Marvel to fuck off. Marvel Comics is trying to claim that Hydra were never Nazis, and that's just a misunderstanding, which is drawing a lot of criticism, especially at conventions. Marvel Studios promptly had characters on Agents of SHIELD say 'Oh, all of Hydra are Nazis, they were founded by Nazis, they follow Nazi beliefs, they are utterly horrible people.'
But it's deliberate. Nick Spencer making Captain America a Nazi is deliberate. Claiming that the Nazis were actually winning World War 2 in 1945 until the allies used a Cosmic Cube to alter reality and turn Captain America into a hero is deliberate. The fact that the first issue of the event built around this horseshit was released on April 19, the anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, is deliberate, and disgusting.
As a long time Marvel and Captain America fan, this is agonising. I try to support the comics being done by the people I know are speaking out against it, but it's getting harder to do so. Pretty soon, I'll walk away. I've done it before, with both Marvel and DC, over things I disagree with, and I'll do it again. But I hate seeing monsters destroy the things I love.
- DHBirr - 04-27-2017
The TIME article linked in the original post is dated from almost a full year ago, and Marvel did backpedal on that, soon declaring that Cap's memories of being a Hydra agent were false and inserted just shortly before he revealed them. The recent blog post, though, indicates that they've now backpedalled on the backpedalling. I'd long since (roughly 2000) almost completely given up on reading, much less buying, Marvel (or DC, for that matter) comics ... but this still outrages me.
-----
Big Brother is watching you. And damn, you are so bloody BORING.
- robkelk - 04-27-2017
Does Marvel Studios have to pay Marvel Comics royalties for the use of the characters? If they do, then going to the movies would indirectly fund the comics in a small part - and even a fraction of a cent of my money going to these yahoos is unpleasant to me.
Learning that this is a long-term and currently-systemic issue just makes things worse. (Are the ADL and/or NAACP doing anything with regards to this?)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- Shepherd - 04-27-2017
Quote:Matrix Dragon wrote:At which point did characters from Agents of SHIELD declare that Hydra was founded by the Nazis? Because before I stopped watching, there was an entire storyline about how Hydra was a secret society which was thousands of years old, far predating the Nazi party.
Marvel Comics is trying to claim that Hydra were never Nazis, and that's just a misunderstanding, which is drawing a lot of criticism, especially at conventions. Marvel Studios promptly had characters on Agents of SHIELD say 'Oh, all of Hydra are Nazis, they were founded by Nazis, they follow Nazi beliefs, they are utterly horrible people.'
Quote:Matrix Dragon wrote:Which comic made that claim? Because every single comic I've seen indicates that Hydra Cap is a result of the Red Skull using the Cosmic Cube, in the form of an omnipotent little girl named Kobik, to rewrite history a few months ago so that his greatest enemy became a sleeper agent who'd always been working for him.
But it's deliberate. Nick Spencer making Captain America a Nazi is deliberate. Claiming that the Nazis were actually winning World War 2 in 1945 until the allies used a Cosmic Cube to alter reality and turn Captain America into a hero is deliberate. The fact that the first issue of the event built around this horseshit was released on April 19, the anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, is deliberate, and disgusting.
From the Marvel Wiki:
Quote:Scared by the sudden destruction being sown by the villains, Kobik ran away and took refuge in her favorite bowling alley. She was found by Steve Rogers, who at the time had been drained of the Super-Soldier Serum that gave him powers, in an attempt to get her to use her powers to end the villain's assault.[5] Selvig and the Red Skull, who was posing as one of the town's inhabitants, facilitated Rogers' encounter with Kobik, but for a different reason.[3] When he was trying to reason with Kobik, Steve was brutally attacked by Crossbones.[5] With Rogers on the brink of death, Kobik intervened, and restored him to his prime. Kobik's actions also affected Rogers' life. She had turned him into the most perfect version of himself, and she believed Hydra to be perfection.[3] Thus, she rewrote his history into one of loyalty to Hydra.[6]And why is everyone only complaining now, when the storyline has been going on for the last year?
----------------------------------------------------
"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV
- nocarename - 04-27-2017
It's like they don't want my money at all.
Quote:Shepherd wrote:Right, about HERE.Quote:Matrix Dragon wrote:At which point did characters from Agents of SHIELD declare that Hydra was founded by the Nazis? Because before I stopped watching, there was an entire storyline about how Hydra was a secret society which was thousands of years old, far predating the Nazi party.
Marvel Comics is trying to claim that Hydra were never Nazis, and that's just a misunderstanding, which is drawing a lot of criticism, especially at conventions. Marvel Studios promptly had characters on Agents of SHIELD say 'Oh, all of Hydra are Nazis, they were founded by Nazis, they follow Nazi beliefs, they are utterly horrible people.'
Quote:It's not just now, it's just been on Tumblr.Quote:Matrix Dragon wrote:Which comic made that claim? Because every single comic I've seen indicates that Hydra Cap is a result of the Red Skull using the Cosmic Cube, in the form of an omnipotent little girl named Kobik, to rewrite history a few months ago so that his greatest enemy became a sleeper agent who'd always been working for him.
But it's deliberate. Nick Spencer making Captain America a Nazi is deliberate. Claiming that the Nazis were actually winning World War 2 in 1945 until the allies used a Cosmic Cube to alter reality and turn Captain America into a hero is deliberate. The fact that the first issue of the event built around this horseshit was released on April 19, the anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, is deliberate, and disgusting.
From the Marvel Wiki:
Quote:Scared by the sudden destruction being sown by the villains, Kobik ran away and took refuge in her favorite bowling alley. She was found by Steve Rogers, who at the time had been drained of the Super-Soldier Serum that gave him powers, in an attempt to get her to use her powers to end the villain's assault.[5] Selvig and the Red Skull, who was posing as one of the town's inhabitants, facilitated Rogers' encounter with Kobik, but for a different reason.[3] When he was trying to reason with Kobik, Steve was brutally attacked by Crossbones.[5] With Rogers on the brink of death, Kobik intervened, and restored him to his prime. Kobik's actions also affected Rogers' life. She had turned him into the most perfect version of himself, and she believed Hydra to be perfection.[3] Thus, she rewrote his history into one of loyalty to Hydra.[6]And why is everyone only complaining now, when the storyline has been going on for the last year?
- Shepherd - 04-27-2017
Quote:nocarename wrote:The article you linked indicates that Agents of SHIELD canon agrees with my recollections:
Right, about HERE.
Quote:In Phil Coulson’s high school history class room, Coulson lectures against the Inhuman threat when one of his students asks the pivotal question: “Aren’t all Hydra agents Nazis?” Coulson argued vehemently that they were not; despite Hydra being introduced in Captain America: The First Avenger as “the Nazi Science Division,” Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. has since clarified that Hydra is actually a millennia-old organization founded as worshippers of Hive, the first Inhuman created by the Kree, and were dedicated to bringing Hive back to Earth, which was achieved in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. season 3.It is only one single character, a character who knows for a fact that Hydra's history goes back millennia, who says otherwise:
Quote:In “What If?” Simmons confronts Coulson’s rebellious student who asks her flat-out “Are Hydra Nazis?” Simmons answers without hesitation: “Yes, they are. Every last one of them!”----------------------------------------------------
"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV
- robkelk - 04-27-2017
Shepherd Wrote:...And why is everyone only complaining now, when the storyline has been going on for the last year?Can't speak for anyone else, but I only found out about this roughly ten minutes before I posted the first post in this thread.
Yes, I complained as soon as I knew about the issue. It isn't my fault the issue wasn't brought to my attention earlier.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- Matrix Dragon - 04-27-2017
Quote:Does Marvel Studios have to pay Marvel Comics royalties for the use of the characters? If they do, then going to the movies would indirectly fund the comics in a small part - and even a fraction of a cent of my money going to these yahoos is unpleasant to me.
Not sure actually, and yeah, that's more than fair.
Quote:In “What If?” Simmons confronts Coulson’s rebellious student who asks her flat-out “Are Hydra Nazis?” Simmons answers without hesitation: “Yes, they are. Every last one of them!”
Given the timing of that (It's a recent episode, set in an alternate reality where Hydra took over the world and are generally being Nazis about it), it's generally believed to be part of Marvel Studios general contempt for Comics.
Quote:Which comic made that claim? Because every single comic I've seen indicates that Hydra Cap is a result of the Red Skull using the Cosmic Cube, in the form of an omnipotent little girl named Kobik, to rewrite history a few months ago so that his greatest enemy became a sleeper agent who'd always been working for him.
Issue 0 of Secret Empire, which came out on the 19th. Now, in fairness, it was said by Nazi Steve, and never responded to by anyone else in the comic, so it might just be his Cube memories talking. But some of Mervel Comics statements this week regarding it, and a time travel storyline in Thunderbolts, really don't help there.
Quote:And why is everyone only complaining now, when the storyline has been going on for the last year?
The backlash has been going on, across social media, conventions and in general sales at Marvel, ever since the Captain Nazi storyline started and Marvel Comics started doubling down.
- LynnInDenver - 04-28-2017
Quote:Shepherd wrote:I tend not to complain publicly, especially when I already see lots of people making much more eloquent points than I can, and are much more authorities on the subject than my pasty white ass. I did, however, hear about it quickly enough that, as I noted, my joy playing LEGO Marvel Avengers turned into ashes. That panel of Cap saying "Hail Hydra" is burned into my brain as the moment Marvel Comics Jumped The Shark. And from some of the comments, sounds like one of the shitstains responsible was able to set it up that Disney may have to literally gut the company to get him out of it.
And why is everyone only complaining now, when the storyline has been going on for the last year?
And I'm with Rob; if even a fraction of a cent goes to Comics, I'm basically done with the product in question.
--
"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor
- Shepherd - 04-28-2017
Quote:Matrix Dragon wrote:Except, if the article which nocarename linked is correct, that is the exact opposite of what happened:Quote:In “What If?” Simmons confronts Coulson’s rebellious student who asks her flat-out “Are Hydra Nazis?” Simmons answers without hesitation: “Yes, they are. Every last one of them!”
Given the timing of that (It's a recent episode, set in an alternate reality where Hydra took over the world and are generally being Nazis about it), it's generally believed to be part of Marvel Studios general contempt for Comics.
Quote:Marvel has taken pains to revise their history to show that, as with the TV series and movies, Hydra has existed well before Nazism, and only allied with Hitler during the Second World War because they shared similar goals with the Third Reich.Of course it is entirely possible that an internet news article on a site called screenrant.com contains factual inaccuracies.
Quote:Matrix Dragon wrote:The Thunderbolts time travel storyline actually does help. I collect Thunderbolts and own the issues in question. Issue #11, page 1 (the recap page).Quote:Which comic made that claim? Because every single comic I've seen indicates that Hydra Cap is a result of the Red Skull using the Cosmic Cube, in the form of an omnipotent little girl named Kobik, to rewrite history a few months ago so that his greatest enemy became a sleeper agent who'd always been working for him.
Issue 0 of Secret Empire, which came out on the 19th. Now, in fairness, it was said by Nazi Steve, and never responded to by anyone else in the comic, so it might just be his Cube memories talking. But some of Mervel Comics statements this week regarding it, and a time travel storyline in Thunderbolts, really don't help there.
"But Bucky doesn't know that the Red Skull already got to Kobik, convincing her to rewrite Captain America's history so that he believes he's an undercover Hydra agent."
Issue #11, the next to last page:
Bucky: Did you...Did you make Steve part of Hydra?
Kobik: Of course I did! Me an' Mr. America, an' Mr. Selvig, an' Mr. Schmidt... All of us being the best we can be and making friends everywhere!
So there you have the recap text and the living Cosmic Cube both stating outright that Kobik is the one responsible.
edit:
I just wiki'd Ike Perlmutter. If Wikipedia is accurate:
Quote:Jeph Loeb, who oversees Marvel Television and the television properties of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, still reports to Perlmutter.That would seem to indicate that Agents of SHIELD and Marvel Comics are both overseen by the man.
----------------------------------------------------
"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV
- Matrix Dragon - 04-28-2017
Hmm, fair point on the Thunderbolts thing. I was going by scans I'd seen, which were incomplete. Because as much as I love so many of the characters involved in that comic, I'm not supporting that plotline.
Also fair point on the Agents of Shield part. That's what I get for not having watched the show properly since season 2. Curiously, doing some more research, it appears that Marvel Television and Animation are still answering to Perlmutter, while Studios is entirely independent since about 2015. Nasty setup really, worse than the mess I already thought it was. And Leob is... yeah. Leob.
- Shepherd - 04-28-2017
Quote:Matrix Dragon wrote:Yeah, I am definitely disappointed in Thunderbolts, although it has less to do with the plotline (what little there is of it) and more to do with the incredibly weak characterization. Any sort of character depth is glossed over in favor of shallow quirks and habits. Definitely a major step down from the original series.
Hmm, fair point on the Thunderbolts thing. I was going by scans I'd seen, which were incomplete. Because as much as I love so many of the characters involved in that comic, I'm not supporting that plotline.
----------------------------------------------------
"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV
- Spoilsport - 04-28-2017
Yes, of course Hydra predates the Nazis, because someone forgot that the Teutonic Heritage the Nazis invented was actually invented, and that's what Hydra has roots in.
I'd write something pithy about how this is a strike to everything good and true I believe in (like finding out Captain America is a Nazi) but Marvel Comics already did that.
Elwood: Illinois Nazis.
Jake: I hate Illinois Nazis.
- Skyfire2020 - 04-29-2017
All I know about Marvel comes from the movies and the Marvel ultimate alliance games (and I was unhappy you had to play as the pro-reg characters to unlock all the abilities) so I'll stay out of the specifics. On a general level I have never understood this need for gritty "real" characters. Yes you don't want a Gary-Stu (if I've got the right type of sue) in every film but I can see "human characters" on tv and in real life. For my films I want heros and angels and white hats and people who do their best even if they suffer for it.
In terms of fights I agree with G'Kar:
By G’Quan, I can’t recall the last time I was in a fight like that. No moral ambiguity, no… hopeless battle against ancient and overwhelming forces. They were the bad guys, as you say, we were the good guys. And they made a very satisfying thump when they hit the floor’
Mark
- hazard - 04-29-2017
Properly handled a grittier take on a character can provide context and insight into a character, what they stand for, what they will act like when their back is against the wall and everything is not going their way.
I repeat, properly handled.
I wouldn't trust most comic book writers to properly handle any story line well, never mind a gritty reboot. Too often do they take 'gritty' to mean 'everything's gone to shit, and there's blood and guts and swearing and general asshattery everywhere, and the heroes are the worst offenders.' You lose the contrast of a hero faced with a harsh world when you do this, and rarely do you see the well thought out motivations that you need to make it work. Instead, you get Darkness Induced Audience Apathy, where as the story line continues you just end up with readers that say 'you know what, I don't care anymore.'
- Shepherd - 04-29-2017
Other people must have a different definition of 'gritty' than me, because I don't think the current storyline has anything to do with making Captain America 'gritty'. From my perspective, the heroic journey is meaningless without meaningful opposition. And opposition isn't meaningful unless your opponent is genuinely threatening. So Captain America's victories are meaningless unless there is the real possibility of the Red Skull defeating him, which is exactly what happened here.
The ironic part is that, in a way, Captain America was partially responsible for what happened, with the precursor events going back to 2007. In that year, Steve Rogers used a Cosmic Cube taken from the Red Skull to change reality so that the villainous Winter Soldier would regain his memories of having been Bucky Barnes.
This may have inspired SHIELD to use the damaged Cosmic Cube named Kobik to create Pleasant Hill, where super criminals had their personal realities rewritten to turn them into non-powered productive members of society in a fake town/prison. When the villains eventually broke free and rebelled, Steve Rogers tried to convince Kobik to once more use her reality warping powers to fix things. Unfortunately for him, the Red Skull had gotten to her first and filled her head with Hydra propaganda.
tldr, if you repeatedly use reality warping brainwashing to attain your goals, don't be surprised when your enemies do the same thing.
On a related note, this entire Captain America storyline really reminds me of a dark but well written old Ranma 1/2 fanfic titled Ill Met by Starlight (http://www.thekeep.org/~mike/imbs.html), which had the most interesting tagline:
Ranma Saotome is invincible.
If it's got martial arts in it, he'll win, eventually.
This is a good thing.... right?
If it's got martial arts in it, he'll win, eventually.
This is a good thing.... right?
What if things had gone a little differently, though? One day, one different decision, one event out of place, changing.... cascading...
What if Ranma wasn't the hero, but the villain?
----------------------------------------------------"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV
- Matrix Dragon - 04-29-2017
This isn't about Captain America being gritty. This is about certain people at Marvel either not understanding what kind of character Captain America is and represents, or worse, understanding what he represents, and perverting it. A character that represents the Ayran ideal, who stands against it without hesitation, because it's the right thing to do. A character created by Jews as a statement against Nazis, an act that saw them threatened with violence more than once. And they made him a Nazi. God, the more I think about it, the angrier I get.
- Labster - 05-02-2017
This isn't like Ranma turning villain in a fic. Ranma had questionable morality to begin with, anyway.
This would be closer to Sailor Moon turning full evil and trying to kill her friends and destroy the world, in a canon storyline. Taking a character that generations of children used as a moral compass and putting those kinds of words in their mouth. Ugh. This does real damage to the subculture, and maybe the culture at large. There's only so much moral relativism we can take. Like I get that brainwashing is a regular thing in comics, but this is a bit further. It normalizes extreme views in obvious opposition to what the creators wanted.
-- ∇×V
- Spoilsport - 05-03-2017
Matrix Dragon Wrote:This isn't about Captain America being gritty. This is about certain people at Marvel either not understanding what kind of character Captain America is and represents, or worse, understanding what he represents, and perverting it. A character that represents the Ayran ideal, who stands against it without hesitation, because it's the right thing to do. A character created by Jews as a statement against Nazis, an act that saw them threatened with violence more than once. And they made him a Nazi. God, the more I think about it, the angrier I get.
This is what it is. Now that the POTUS can have neo-nazis acting as advisors, all the "marginalized" neo-nazis come out and wave their complete-absence-of-colors proudly. And since a well-positioned rich neo-nazi-minded guy holds control of the property, that's just what he's going to do: legitimize the actual real bad guys under a BS claim of "diversity".
- DHBirr - 05-03-2017
A "neo-nazi-minded guy" who's Jewish, Israeli-born in fact. Irony of ironies. Proof, if any were still needed, that Evil IS equal-opportunity.
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Big Brother is watching you. And damn, you are so bloody BORING.
- classicdrogn - 05-03-2017
... all the outrage I could express has already been covered decently well, and frankly it's just another reason to be ashamed of America under the Trump regime in general. Almost completely tangential except that I noticed it while looking to see what the wiki bio had to say about it, but can someone who follws the comics more closely (as in at all) ID the black hottie in power armor on the right side background image at the Marvel Database wiki?
http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Marvel_Database
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows