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+--- Thread: Money Challenge (/showthread.php?tid=2037)
Money Challenge - Kokuten - 04-10-2007
I hereby throw down a gauntlet to any and all 'fen - devise a monetary unit that cannot be counterfitted.
I will be your prime counterfitter, in the guise of the third-teir Boskonian scientist Marcus Enwhistle.
Also, feel free to discuss ways and means in this thread.Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979
Re: Money Challenge - CattyNebulart - 04-10-2007
Quote:Maybe it's just me, but I can imagine a volkswagen going interstelar (extremly unlikely, but possible, top gear converted a Reliant Robin into a space shuttle afterall, so it's not even that far fetched.), but I can't imagine uncounterfeitable money.
If we can use handwavium to make Volkswagens that go to Alpha Centauri, surely we can use it to make uncounterfeitable money.
The only way I see uncounterfeitable money as a possibility when it's handled by computers, but I doubt the existence of unhackable computers.
Still people are welcome to try and provve me wrong.
And I'm sorry Kouten about messing up the story thread. I should have moved it out of there with my second reply at the latest. Mea Culpa, Mea maxima Culpa.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."
Re: Money Challenge - itsune9tl - 04-10-2007
Quote:It's because the Human race is a race of Problem Fixers, and Puzzle Solvers.
The only way I see uncounterfeitable money as a possibility when it's handled by computers, but I doubt the existence of unhackable computers.
Still people are welcome to try and provve me wrong.
What happens is that every time some one comes up with a ... well call it a feitablity scheme that cant be countered, some one will see it as a challenging puzzle to be solved. Then some one will have to fix the problem of the previous Feit being Countered, which in turn some one will see as an interesting puzzle....
It's a viscious cycle.
Eventually we'll be a moneyless society because this money stuff was worth far less than it takes to actually have it created.
Then we'll have to rely on the "Barter of Goods and Services", and learn to trust one's word of good faith.
A society of AI's would run on an economy based on Info-Storage capability, and Processor Cycle Speed.
Re: Money Challenge - Kokuten - 04-10-2007
Quote:De nada - I just drug it out here as a pretext to toss down The Challenge.
And I'm sorry Kouten about messing up the story thread. I should have moved it out of there with my second reply at the latest. Mea Culpa, Mea maxima Culpa.
Quote:Fortunately, we're not a society of AI..
A society of AI's would run on an economy based on Info-Storage capability, and Processor Cycle Speed.
Personally, I don't see this as being an issue, after Earth banks get into orbit. Once you can take Visa, it's basically just a trust-based economy, with the dollar/euro/franc being a marker.. Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979
since i started this rigamarole - Murmur the Fallen - 04-10-2007
I figure that in the beginnings of Fenspace, there's very little use for money. I mean in the very beginning, when people are zipping around all-whiz bang in their waved cars.
Then, as people start to settle down a bit, there's a trade relationship developing between the Earth and Fens. The Near Earth Fens and their stationary positions are used as go-betweens between further-out Fens and the Earth economy. I imagine a rather loose barter system such as raw materials for non-waved manufactured goods as the demand for quirk-free goods rises as the novelty of waved goods wanes.
The currency of choice by this time is probably going to be the Australian Dollar, as it's the strongest and most stable currency available to Fens in space. Transactions will probably be entirely electronic.
Then, as things get more settled, and Fens begin to coalesce into their own polities and set up their own infrastructure, they will start making their own currency--again, electronic.
I imagine a vast network of FTL comms that will keep this currency market in place.
Will this be hack-proof? Of course not, but then as mentioned before there'll probably never be a completely hack or counterfeit proof currency.
Depending on which are the first cities/polities in space are, particularly those with a big enough and stable enough population, these will be the first entirely Fen-based currencies. Something like, I dunno, the Crystal Tokyo Yen or the New Republic Credit or something.
It's a bit earlier, possibly during the stage of the barter for australian dollar point, that I see the First Bank of Sol as growing into a trusted middle-man and then into their own financial power.
After this stage . . .hell, maybe transform into the Culture post-scarcity communo-anarchism or Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom's Whuffie.
Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong
-murmur
Re: Money Challenge - robkelk - 04-11-2007
One possibility is for electronic money, on smartcards for spending money and in central databases for banks... with AIs programmed to be incorruptable in charge of the funds. (One AI on each smartcard, and groups of AIs in the central databases.) Although this leads to the questions "who programs the AIs?", "who makes sure they stay incorruptable?", and "isn't this slavery?".
Another possibility is to go back to a precious metal standard - no paper money or credit balances, just the pure metal. Assuming the existance of handwaved spectrum analysers that can determine what something is made of, it doesn't matter whether somebody tries to forge the money; he'd still need one credit worth of the precious metal to create a one-credit coin...
-Rob Kelk
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Re: Money Challenge - CattyNebulart - 04-11-2007
true it doesn't need to be unbreakable just as expensive, or more expensive to create the money than it's worth, but with a new waved devices being developed on a daily basis, that's going to be hard to do. And also the equivalent to the 1000 dolar build would be quite a problem to make, but high value currency is often inspected more closely than low value curreny so it might not be that much of a problem.
Still the challenge is to give an uncounterfeitable money system, which I still say is impossible.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."
First Fen Bank - Freddy Isnot - 04-11-2007
Idea from Pratchett's _Dark Side of the Sun_. The First Syrian Bank is a planet that developed awareness and decided to go into banking.
Creation of the First Fen Bank. Someone take a small planet, or very large asteroid, and turn the entire thing into the most powerful computer in existence with an AI to match. Simply by being more powerful and intelligent than any other AI makes it unhackable. It handles banking because it is an interesting job and, with no other motivators, it is uncorruptable. Money is completely electronic so it can easily keep track of accounts and transactions.
-Freddy Isnot
"You are now graduated from newbie and are just clueless. Consider that a compliment."
-Zipcode
Re: First Fen Bank - Kokuten - 04-11-2007
Quote:
The First Syrian Bank
It is with a deep regret that I admit defeat in the matter of the 'First Solarian Bank', Master. I cannot defeat a currency based around authenticated transactions with such a powerful computer. We simply do not have the computational power available to defeat the encryption, and in the few cases I have been able to, the controlling AI changes it immediately.
Again, I must regretfully admit defeat, and bow to your original design. I have generated plans and yield estimates for the explosive devices required to completely obliterate the planetoid. I will need the following items, almost all of which can be acquired easily through our Earth contacts...
BOOM.
next?Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979
We could skip the issue altogether... - itsune9tl - 04-12-2007
We could (for the most part) just let the AI's run the economy behind the scenes. Sure they may have an agenda of their own, but who doesn't?
How about Fenscript as a series of markers Validated by two AI's? Not sure about a marker, contact one of the AI's on either end of the script to see if you can get the goods. If neither end is good, contract a Pirate or a Ninja to "find" out the why, where, how. Once you get the goods from one end it fills the Script.
Re: We could skip the issue altogether... - Kokuten - 04-12-2007
Quote:public/private key encryption types, say?
How about Fenscript as a series of markers Validated by two AI's?
Printed in a nice tough, foldable, 2" x 4" plastic... time/date + public key hashed with value..
Works.
Marcus Enwhistle would run off a few dozen duplicates, causing a bit of chaos until time/date got increased in resolution enough to prevent duplicate entries...
I don't think I can beat that one. Anyone else?Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979
Re: We could skip the issue altogether... - CattyNebulart - 04-12-2007
There are some enryption schemes for money that's hard to counterfeit (and most of them are quite complex to acount for nonobvious angles of attack), but I am assuming that a wave enhanced decryption device could get around that. Also there has been some back and forth how widespread FTL comms are, so a method that relies on communication would probably not be a good currency.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."
Re: We could skip the issue altogether... - robkelk - 04-13-2007
Quote:That depends on how easy it is to connect to the FTL communications network. I could see the FTL comms being the nodes of a "star" topography network, connected to each other and serving data to and from the lightspeed comms around them.
Also there has been some back and forth how widespread FTL comms are, so a method that relies on communication would probably not be a good currency.
We've established that FTL nodes exist at Venus/Crystal Tokyo, Earth, Luna/Tranquility Base, L5/Stellvia, Mars/Starbase 1, Phobos, Belt/Greenwood, Belt/Hephaestus, and Alpha Centauri/Starbase 2 - that covers the majority of Fenspace, and only Starbase 2 is too far away for near-instant communications over the FTL net. Folks near any of those locations (or The Island between Earth and Mars, or Grovers' Corners wherever they want to be) could hook into the system and communicate with the banks on Earth with practically zero timelag.
Although we should put a FTL comm or six in the outer system, as well... Would there be room for one on Hades?
-Rob Kelk
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Re: We could skip the issue altogether... - Bob Schroeck - 04-13-2007
There should probably be a few relay stations/satellites scattered throughout the system, probably in solar/planetary lagrange points to make them reasonably stable.
-- Bob
---------
The Internet Is For Norns.
Re: We could skip the issue altogether... - Kokuten - 04-13-2007
Given the nature of early FTL comm (expensive/energy hog/large), strapping a 'banking interface' onto them, and having a dedicated AI running the show becomes a no-brainer, IMO.
Query - who's the AI?Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979
Re: We could skip the issue altogether... - robkelk - 04-13-2007
Quote:It doesn't need to be anyone recognizable.
Query - who's the AI?
For that matter, it doesn't need to be the same personality facade for any two random people. The Wizarding World could talk to the front-end that looks like a clerk from the wizards bank, the Trekkies could talk to a disembodied voice that sounds like Majel Barret, and Noah Scott would do business with a Garden-Gnome of Zurich. Who you talk to could even be part of the security...
-Rob Kelk
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Re: We could skip the issue altogether... - Kokuten - 04-13-2007
Sounds like a going concern..
And I can see a high-grade, massive capacity AI core developing into some of the next-gen stuff we were discussing in another thread...
First Stellar Bank of Fenspace, indeed!Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979
Re: We could skip the issue altogether... - itsune9tl - 04-13-2007
Quote:
Query - who's the AI?
I was origionally thinking Of Fenscript as a series of claim tickets for Solid Goods Validated by any two AI's that help to run a fen's business, be it a warehouse, shipping company, production facility, any type of service industry, or even 'Danecredit (useful for buying 'Danetech).
Basically a Transfer reciept listing an originating source AI, and a recieving AI, with an integral elctronic papertrail.
The claim ticket just states that you can pick up X amount of goods at Y location. One AI verifies the goods, the second verifies the location. Probably should be a time stamp on the ticket as well.
Re: We could skip the issue altogether... - Kokuten - 04-13-2007
Quote:Works great - as an earlier system. Say I've got script for thirty chickens from Grover's Corners, well, how many seedlings of Cannabis Sativa Handwavium* does that buy me from The Jason?
Basically a Transfer reciept
Yes, I know the traditional barter answer - as many as he says it does. But that breaks down quite a bit in an economy as varied and weird as Fenspace, leading us back to AI-encrypted accounting with Fencreds.
Looks like a clear-cut case of evolution. AI-mediated barter, to AI-mediated banking.
Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979
money - Murmur the Fallen - 04-13-2007
even as ai-mediated electronic transfer system, it's a bit cumbersome. but probably workable.
of course, the *worth* of any currency depends upon how much everyone thinks it's worth; so i imagine that this will be a pretty volatile market in the beginning.
also i don't know if there is going to be any one currency monopoly, especially if there's a sufficient proliferation of computers capable of mediating this currency market. like: fenscript, solar credit, space dollar, etc.
-murmur
Currency exchange - Freddy Isnot - 04-16-2007
Money and banking is very complicated, and Fenspace is not going to have an overall currency. Fenspace is a place for people, the Fen, to do things *their way*. That includes money.
Groups of fen, fen governments or organizations, will create their own currencies to simplify the exchange of goods and services. They may even make a secure and reliable currency. Practical solutions for such currencies have already been suggested. There will also be groups of fen that will want to stick with barter systems.
The next problem for fen money is what we are beginning to realize, reliable currency exchange rates. How will a fen traveling from one sector of space to another be able to exchange an amount currency of one sector for another currency of equal value? In Real Life money there is a complex system between banks and governments that results in me being able to go to the newspaper and look up the current current rates. Fenspace doesn't have such a system in place. How do we resolve that?
Freddy Isnot
-Freddy Isnot
"You are now graduated from newbie and are just clueless. Consider that a compliment."
-Zipcode
Currency Exchange - Freddy Isnot - 04-16-2007
Honestly, I think currency exchange rates and making a currency that cannot be counterfeited are something we should ignore. Pretend it just happens off-screen and works.
We should focus on creating unique currencies for the various fen governments, and how they can be used for stories.
-Freddy Isnot
"You are now graduated from newbie and are just clueless. Consider that a compliment."
-Zipcode
Re: Currency Exchange - Kokuten - 04-16-2007
Quote:While I'm having fun with the economic worldbuilding, I'm not dead-set against this, either. Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979
Pretend it just happens off-screen and works.
Re: Currency Exchange - robkelk - 04-17-2007
Quote:Ah, but there are at least three of us who are writing characters that can be described as "fen governments". Benevolent-dictator-type governments, mind you, but still...
We should focus on creating unique currencies for the various fen governments, and how they can be used for stories.
On the flip side, I've already mentioned that one of those three uses 'dane currency.
-Rob Kelk
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Re: Currency Exchange - Black Aeronaut - 04-21-2007
How's about a compromise between the two? Obviously there's gonna be the argument that follows like: "Hey! I can't except Fen-X Credits! They're worthless. I take only Fen-C Credits."
I figure there's gonna be two solutions.
Option A: In the ancient Middle East, you had Empires running amock and all that nice jazz, and so you had several different currencies you could be going by depending on where you lived. Now, that's all well and good, but whenever you had to go to another city to take care of some business and you were NOT a merchant, then you had to stop by and deal with a money changer. For a nominal fee, a money changer would convert one currencey to another. This was actually a pretty simple matter back then because, hey! Silver's Silver and Gold's Gold, right? Right. Good. So, what's to say that we can't have other money-savvy folks running around and making a modest income by helping people overcome the currency barrier?
Option B? Transactions between person A and B of a given Fraction can be handled by the local currency, but if you want to do business with someone in another Fraction, your best bet might be to barter with them. After all, some Fractions can produce unique and valuable goods, materials and services that others can not.
Take my character for example. He has the unique distinction for being the fastest small load (under 500 Kg) delivery service in-system and the fastest medium load (2-3 Metric Tons) delevery service out-of-system. He can actually use both Barter and Local Currency because he is a non-alligned Fen bouncing around all over the place. He finds both to be very useful and convienient.
My advice is, as we say in the Navy, to not Nuke this. In case you can't figure out what -that- means... Well, simply put, anyone in the Nuke Eng field tends to overthink things a bit. We can't blame them as it is their job. They keep our reactors from going boom, yaknow. Thus, to be told you're nuking something means that you're overthinking and should take a step or two back from the issue and take a few breaths.
Anywho... What'cha think? Just chil-lax and use both systems as they seem to work in practice?
Black Aeronaut Technologies Group
Aerospace Solutions for the discerning spacer
"But first, let's test it on the penguin."
"Meep?" O.o