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+--- Thread: Forrestal-Class Aircraft Carriers, the First Supercarriers (/showthread.php?tid=2862)
Forrestal-Class Aircraft Carriers, the First Supercarriers - DeputyJones - 12-23-2012
While it has been discussed in the past against bringing a big danelaw military presence into space, what about various factions and associations gaining large, multi-function vessels? The Forrestal class ships seem like they could be excellent for conversions into various ships.
A good deal of gutting could produce a good bulk cargo ship. A more limited amount of gutting and conversion and you could have several different uses - a ready-made Fen settlement for a small to mid-sized population, whether afloar in space or landed on a surface; a colony ship for out of Sol System missions; perhaps a sometimes mobile pit stop in space like the Gnarlycurl.
Opinions? Especially on the feasibility of convincing USgov to sell them?
Ships in Forrestal class (state as of end of 2012)[table]
- Dartz - 12-23-2012
If you want ex-military, buy Russian.
Ultimately, there's nothing you can do with a Forrestal class that you can't do with a Freighter, which will be easier to aquire. You're still looking at a six-seven figure sum, as opposed to an eight or nine-figure if you're buying at scrap prices. Not to mention the fact that the US Government does not like Fen....
Bulk freighters can be picked up at scrap prices in multiple places. But scrap price for that much metal isn't going to be cheap.
SS Ciara is something of an oddball in that respect. I've no objection to other ex-military naval ships appearing, so long as they remain the first (The initial Oh Shit! Warship! Being too funny), just so long as there's a fair reason for the country involved to sell it. (The Navy here has sold old ships at auction to private hands for conversion to yachts before).
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--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?
- M Fnord - 12-23-2012
DeputyJones Wrote:Opinions? Especially on the feasibility of convincing USgov to sell them?
The main problem with buying a decommissioned aircraft carrier is, well, they're decommissioned. All the good stuff's either been stripped out or just left in place with no maintenance, and that includes stuff like the engines, the steering, electronics... A full refit is doable with enough handwavium, but you'd a) have to have a lot of it and b) have to have a place where you could do a year-plus refit job with nobody bugging you. Which considering US handwavium laws is not going to be the boneyard where the things are currently sitting.
Again, it's doable but it'd take a load of bread, people and time to pull off.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery
FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information
"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
- LynnInDenver - 12-23-2012
There's a second problem with the U.S. government not allowing the carrier to be waved in the boneyard... finding the lift capacity to get it to drydock. JMC might have moved block housing from Ireland... but those can't hold a candle to the size and mass of a decommissioned aircraft carrier. Anyone trying it would either have to commission with the Trekkies or a faction with similar lifting capacity.
Well, OK, JMC could probably manage it... but it would be a large chunk of their fleet that would have to be involved to get it up, which would be fraught with the peril of having to coordinate all those Blue Midgets having to basically haul it up by cable attachments. Not an especially ideal set of circumstances. And frighteningly expensive.
(This very same set of circumstances is likely the reason that the Trekkies didn't just buy CVN-65 off the U.S. Navy at the end of her useful life. Way too expensive and dangerous to get where it could be waved without a lot of throat clearing of the locals.)
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"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor
- DeputyJones - 12-23-2012
*scratches Forrestals off 'possibilities' list*
Gotcha.
While I've some attention, though, ya think Putin would be adverse to selling off about a hundred of the Yakovlev 38s? They're going on 40 years old and have been gathering dust in storage for about half that time.
- M Fnord - 12-23-2012
DeputyJones Wrote:*scratches Forrestals off 'possibilities' list*
Gotcha.
I wouldn't say "impossible," it's entirely possible but it's outside the boundaries of the usual bunch-of-yobs origin story. An established faction or Fenspace one-percenter could buy a Forrestal and have the cash necessary to tow it to a friendly port and refit the thing.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery
FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information
"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
- robkelk - 12-23-2012
JFerio Wrote:There's a second problem with the U.S. government not allowing the carrier to be waved in the boneyard... finding the lift capacity to get it to drydock. JMC might have moved block housing from Ireland... but those can't hold a candle to the size and mass of a decommissioned aircraft carrier. Anyone trying it would either have to commission with the Trekkies or a faction with similar lifting capacity.The only two groups I can think of who can do this are the Trekkies and Rockhounds. Not to say that there aren't others, but these two are the only ones who've demonstrated the ability to move something the size of Starbase 1 or an asteroid (respectively).
M Fnord Wrote:I wouldn't say "impossible," it's entirely possible but it's outside the boundaries of the usual bunch-of-yobs origin story. An established faction or Fenspace one-percenter could buy a Forrestal and have the cash necessary to tow it to a friendly port and refit the thing.Noah Scott has better things to spend money on (mostly connected with Artemis).
Padraig O'Neill might throw money at this sort of thing, since nobody else has and he'd finally be the first at something...
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Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- HRogge - 12-23-2012
robkelk Wrote:Padraig O'Neill might throw money at this sort of thing, since nobody else has and he'd finally be the first at something...
Five month before he manages to lift it off, the US will announce the launch of their first waved "space carrier"...
- Dakota - 12-23-2012
This maybe be a case of it being better to build from the ground up and build small to get the concept right.
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Dakota
- Rajvik - 12-31-2012
while i have to agree with Dakota on this i can think of a particular fandom that not only would probably have the cash and other resourses to pull it off, but WOULD make it a military craft, thats the Wing Commander fandom. Then again, they would probably be more likely to grab one of the LHD's, thinking Guadalcanal was a class there, and wave it.
- robkelk - 12-31-2012
Rajvik Wrote:while i have to agree with Dakota on this i can think of a particular fandom that not only would probably have the cash and other resourses to pull it off, but WOULD make it a military craft, thats the Wing Commander fandom.The who?
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Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- Rajvik - 01-04-2013
gods man, they are THE fen for dragon con. on the other hand i imagine what they would do is talk to EA and get the prints from the 3D modeling for the various ships and their classes released to them to produce either in mundane shipyards for waving or else in orbit.
www.wcnews.com
- LynnInDenver - 01-04-2013
robkelk Wrote:Space flight combat games from the 90s. Which introduced us to the Kilrathi (big mean space kitties that happen to be Kzinti with the serial numbers filed off). One installment, when they brought FMV to the series, had Mark Hamill.Rajvik Wrote:while i have to agree with Dakota on this i can think of a particular fandom that not only would probably have the cash and other resourses to pull it off, but WOULD make it a military craft, thats the Wing Commander fandom.
The who?
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"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor
- robkelk - 01-04-2013
I'm being too subtle again... I know what Wing Commander is; I just have trouble seeing an organized fandom of the game being that wealthy. (IMHO, they're more likely to be a part of the Warsies...)
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Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- ECSNorway - 01-04-2013
JFerio Wrote:Which has lead to at least one SW/WC crossover, just to have him fly on Luke Skywalker's wing.robkelk Wrote:Space flight combat games from the 90s. Which introduced us to the Kilrathi (big mean space kitties that happen to be Kzinti with the serial numbers filed off). One installment, when they brought FMV to the series, had Mark Hamill.Rajvik Wrote:while i have to agree with Dakota on this i can think of a particular fandom that not only would probably have the cash and other resourses to pull it off, but WOULD make it a military craft, thats the Wing Commander fandom.
The who?
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Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.
- ECSNorway - 01-04-2013
... oh wonderful. I went wikibrowsing on them, and now I'm having flashbacks to the school-ships in Girls und Panzer. Which clearly and blatantly can't be any existing actual class, as they're just Too Damn Big, but still. I'm now imagining one of these floating on some ocean off on Gwynedd or the like, with the deck built up with homes shops and tankery-drill fields...
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Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.
- Black Aeronaut - 01-14-2013
Sorry I haven't been around much. No internet at the new house, and my sibs and I are working 12-hour shifts six days a week in a meat packing plant that is two hours from home.
Anywho, Crica-2016 Roughriders might be able to pull something like this off. Even more likely around 2020. At that time they should have ample resources to pull of one, maybe two purchases of that magnitude.
Alos, Ben is just crazy enough to fix up some kind of mule/tug ship that can sweep right in and lift the sucker right out of drydock if needs be. It would be a huge and ungainly looking thing, and definitely a one-off. It works only because Ben looks at problems like this and immediately thinks "MOAR POWAH!!!" Really, that's what it boils down to - having enough lifting power just to get it up into orbit. From there, getting it to a suitable facility for refit is relatively easy.
- Rajvik - 01-14-2013
was actually able to find an old web page that is still active for WC Fen, it even has ship stats by class. I think i'll try the wake island class escort carrier and a few F57B fighter bombers
- DeputyJones - 01-14-2013
While I previously had just shelved anything involving the ACs, I recently had an idle thouth that took off on me.
Previous consideration was just "Who amongst the Fen might be capable of 'uplifting' a Forrestal?" Then I realized that the already warned-against-using military aren't the only fish in the danside sea.
What about scientific research groups? Say a coalition thereof were to purchase and wave one (just the hull and drive system due to the usual anti-wave danish feelings) to use as a base of operations for researching, say, the biosphere on Azkaban? The success of something like the ESA/JAXA projects might be what garnered such a serious interest in doing it.
- robkelk - 01-15-2013
DeputyJones Wrote:What about scientific research groups? Say a coalition thereof were to purchase and wave one (just the hull and drive system due to the usual anti-wave danish feelings) to use as a base of operations for researching, say, the biosphere on Azkaban? The success of something like the ESA/JAXA projects might be what garnered such a serious interest in doing it.If there's a scientific/research group out there who have the money and aren't using it somewhere else, I have no problem with them doing this in Fenspace. (Although they'll need a life-support system as well.)
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Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- M Fnord - 01-15-2013
DeputyJones Wrote:While I previously had just shelved anything involving the ACs, I recently had an idle thouth that took off on me.
Previous consideration was just "Who amongst the Fen might be capable of 'uplifting' a Forrestal?" Then I realized that the already warned-against-using military aren't the only fish in the danside sea.
What about scientific research groups? Say a coalition thereof were to purchase and wave one (just the hull and drive system due to the usual anti-wave danish feelings) to use as a base of operations for researching, say, the biosphere on Azkaban? The success of something like the ESA/JAXA projects might be what garnered such a serious interest in doing it.
Tricky, but doable. The big hilarity would come from where the group was based vs. where the scrapped carriers were coming from. Lots of potential international incidents and pundit bloviating... and all of this just to go look at dementor fish. I like it!
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery
FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information
"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
why an AC - Rajvik - 02-04-2013
i was thinking on this thread subject the other week and decided that while an aircraft carrier was a little much maybe an LPD(H) wouldnt be, they are classified as non-combatant units that orriginally were used to land wheeled cargo either by ramp directly to the docks or from the "well deck" via ramped landing craft. Now they are used as part of the MSTS fleet to keep necessary equipment, (trucks of various sizes, humvvs to 7 tons) on hand and ready to land during an amphibious landing to provide the troops with equipment. This way the troops can be flown into an AO and handed ready gear and not have to worry abou loading and transhipment of the gear, much less the shipping time it would take their own gear to get to the AO from state side. I'm gonna do a little more research, but currently the best subject i've found for modification and uplifting it the USS Inchon, LPH-12 Iwo Jima class ship. commision 20 june 1970 decommisioned 20 june 2002, and then stricken from the record which probably means she's spent the last 11 years in the Norfolk Naval yard or sitting in either Tierra del Fuego or Diego Garcia with a load of 7 tons in her hold.