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Kucinich Introduces Articles of Impeachment Against Bush - Bob Schroeck - 06-10-2008
If you're reading this on the evening of 9 June, turn on C-Span. Rep. Dennis Kucinich is, as of 10:36 PM EST, in the middle of his fourth hour of reading a 35-article resolution of impeachment against Bush. (He's been at it since about 7:15 PM, and was just starting article 28 as I typed this.) What's taking so long is that he's documenting everything as part of the resolution, with quotes and footnotes and citations. The charges are impressive, the evidence he's citing even more so.
Some more information on this can be found at http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/ ... 915/533004]Daily Kos and http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Kucinich_ ... _0609.html]Raw Story (which has video and a very rough transcript of the first 10 minutes). The Associated Press has tiny bit of story on it http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iE21 ... QD916SHJ01]here.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Wiregeek - 06-10-2008
this is literally jaw-dropping.
"No can brain today. Want cheezeburger."
From NGE: Nobody Dies, by Gregg Landsman
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5579457/1/NGE_Nobody_Dies
- Valles - 06-10-2008
What's most terrifying is that there is just so much of it.
===========
===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."
- M Fnord - 06-10-2008
Is it bad that I'm watching this unfold and I can't help but think "this really is a damning indictment, Dennis, but it would've been much more useful three fucking years ago"?
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery
FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information
"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
- Valles - 06-10-2008
No, it's not just you.
===========
===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."
- Bob Schroeck - 06-10-2008
It's not like Kucinich hasn't tried before, only to get waylaid by procedural crap and the Speaker of the House herself.
Anyway, best I can recall, he went 4 hours 45 minutes, finishing up just around midnight.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Logan Darklighter - 06-10-2008
This man is deranged and he's only going to hurt the Democratic party doing this.
- Bob Schroeck - 06-11-2008
Publicity stunt or cyberattack? Kucinich's website crashed under "mysterious circumstances" this morning during a wave of hits trying to get info on the articles of impeachment. http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... umstances/]CNN article here.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- M Fnord - 06-11-2008
Neither, he got slashdotted (and Kos'd and digg'd and whatnot) thanks to his marathon reading of the articles. I'm surprised that his server lasted
as long as it did.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery
FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information
"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
- Bob Schroeck - 06-11-2008
Duh. I should have realized that would have been the case.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Black Aeronaut - 06-16-2008
Hoooo-leeee heeellll...
- Bob Schroeck - 06-16-2008
Well, the articles went to the Judiciary committee last week, and ten to one they'll never come back out.
Does anyone have a clue why Pelosi insists that impeaching Bush is "not on the table"?
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- M Fnord - 06-16-2008
Bob Schroeck Wrote:Does anyone have a clue why Pelosi insists that impeaching Bush is "not on the table"?
Because it wouldn't work, is why.
Well, let me clarify that. Could we impeach the bastard? Sure, probably. There's enough votes in the House to begin impeachment proceedings. But impeaching isn't an end, only a means. In order to accomplish the desired end - Bush out on his ass banging a tin pot for pennies - we need to not only impeach but impeach and convict. That requires a 3/4 majority vote in the Senate and the votes for that do not exist. The Democratic majority is too thin and the Republicans - greedy murdering scum that they are - will immediately close ranks behind El Presidente if he comes into real danger. A vote to convict will split down party lines, and that's not going to be enough. Plus, there's the outside chance that going after Glorious Leader might give new direction and strength to the Perpetual Martyr's Party.
That's the logic behind it. You may disagree with it (and I do, to an extent) but on the whole it's a sound enough tactical judgement by faction leaders who are in a growing but not secure position of strength. That it means George W. Bush and all who follow his bloody flag will not be punished for their actions against the United States and the rest of the world is a bummer, but I'm willing to exchange it for a chance to undo the damage his creatures have wrought over the last eight years.
...personally though, if Bush and his cronies got the Benito Mussolini retirement package, I would not shed a single fucking tear. Good riddance.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery
FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information
"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
- Evil Midnight Lurker - 06-16-2008
What are the procedures for criminal charges levied against a former president for crimes committed while in office?
Assuming he didn't get pardoned? Would you still have to go through impeachment, or would a normal court be sufficient at that point?
--Sam
"Yes, evil comes in many forms, whether it be a man-eating cow or Joseph Stalin, but you can't let the package hide the pudding! Evil is just plain
bad! You don't cotton to it. You gotta smack it in the nose with the rolled-up newspaper of goodness! Bad dog! Bad dog!"
- M Fnord - 06-16-2008
I don't think anybody's ever tried that before. Assuming that the crimes were sufficient enough (or recent enough) to be within the statute of
limitations, I *think* it would go along much the same as any standard criminal prosecution. Some crimes are too esoteric or too wrapped up in the position
("failing to defend the Constitution against enemies foreign and domestic" is an impeachable offense, but not a Federal crime, frex) but I think an
ambitious prosecutor could make a legitimate case for fraud given the shenannigans around Halliburton and KBR.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery
FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information
"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
- Bob Schroeck - 06-17-2008
Then there's the whole war crimes thing, which as I understand it the DOJ was scrambling to find some kind of shield for two years ago already -- this is
at least part of the motivation behind all the smokescreening over what is and isn't torture. Apparently even by a generous (to Bush) reading of the Geneva
Convention and other international treaties, he and much of his staff are war criminals a couple times over -- hence also the occasional loud claim that the
Geneva Convention doesn't apply to the USA.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Black Aeronaut - 06-17-2008
Quote: Bob Schroeck wrote:
Then there's the whole war crimes thing, which as I understand it the DOJ was scrambling to find some kind of shield for two years ago already -- this is
at least part of the motivation behind all the smokescreening over what is and isn't torture. Apparently even by a generous (to Bush) reading of the
Geneva Convention and other international treaties, he and much of his staff are war criminals a couple times over -- hence also the occasional loud claim
that the Geneva Convention doesn't apply to the USA.
This is the one thing that kinda scares me about being in the military. No, not being forced to perform such an act. My fear is of being captured by a
terrorist cell, because with what has been going on over the past years, they're going to be feeling plenty justified to violate those Geneva Conventions
as well.
Also, here's my Mother's take on the whole thing that she sent me in an email. Rather well thought out, I think. And you just gotta love the blurb at
the end that she made for any government officials that may or may not be reading the things I read and write. ^_^
Quote:Ain't she something? ^_^
Nope, not shocked. However, if it gets passed, I will bet you dollars to donuts that there is a 50/50 chance that martial law will be declared and
Congress suspended by the President because we are at war. Impeachment could, in view of the President, be a threat against the well being of the United
States. This is the main reason so many people don't want to consider impeachment proceedings... they are afraid that Bush and Chenney will do this.
Could you imagine the USA under martial law? That would even give them a chance to suspend the Presidential Election indefinitely. Talk about scary...
Anyway, that is just my take, what do I know. I am just exercising my right to free speech. Its a shame that, as I send this, some of your brothers are
worried that the FBI will read this email and I will be put under investigation.
I am almost tempted not to send this either. It reminds me of what is said by some of the Prophets, that the Constitution will "hang by a
thread". I always thought that this would be brought about by NATO or the International Court. Not by our own President.
God help this Nation and our people. We are in a lot of trouble.
LU Mom ^..^
ps don't worry... be happy
dps btw if anyone is reading my email, I would like you to know several things.
My Dad enlisted in the Navy when he was 17. Fought in the Gilberts. Used a flame thrower in caves to flush out the enemy. Taught me how to bait a hook
with live shrimp, how to make a kite from the funny papers, took us to Port Aransas for summer vacation and sent us to Catholic school to get a good
education, where I learned the Star Spangled Banner and sung it each morning and recited the Pledge of Allegiance. Dad taught me how to fold the Flag,
how to never let it touch the ground lest you desecrate it. I love my country. I have read the Declaration of Independence and what has happend in this
country for the last 8 years would anger all of the good men that signed it.
Leave us alone and go hunt someone that really deserves your scrutiny, somewhere in the mountains of the middle east.
![[Image: smile.gif]](http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/smile.gif)
- Bob Schroeck - 06-17-2008
Interesting. I hadn't considered that angle on Bush declaring martial law. The water cooler politics scuttlebutt I've been hearing has generally been of the "if a Democrat wins in November, expect Martial Law before January" kind, based on the expectation that around election day Bush will suddenly realize that all the imperial power he's been grabbing for the President will stand a good chance of being handed over to a Democrat, and of course the only things he can imagine a Democratic president doing with it will be the kind of things he's been using it for, squared, only aimed at Republicans.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- robkelk - 06-17-2008
If it comes to that ('though it probably won't, for all the reasons already given), well... I can help people find places to live in Canada, but I
can't do much to help with job searches. Just saying.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- Bob Schroeck - 06-17-2008
Oh, by the way, I note that it's not just the office scuttlebutt that is noticing some of this. At least a few weeks ago, some of the conservative
blogs/news sites were starting to run articles saying that the Presidency has assumed too much power unto itself, and that it'd be a good idea to
relinquish that power no later than, ooooh, about halfway through January 2008....
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Logan Darklighter - 06-17-2008
I can't believe I have talked with all of you on this board and on the Legendary channel and you sound so reasonable on so many other things.
You guys are indulging in paranoid INSANE fantasy. You and everyone in there seem to actually believe that Bush is a war criminal. I considered trying to write
a post pointing out the facts. And there are facts galore. But where do I even start? I have to start from the standpoint of the people that I'm talking to
having some reason. But I'm no longer sure of that. I mean, if you're this far down the path and have drunk enough of the kool-aid as you have, I
don't think facts would matter to you. And frankly, I'm just worn down when it comes to politics. I can't muster the energy, and this kills it even
more.
I try to tell myself that I shouldn't judge people on their politics, but this... I have never been so sickened on this forum before. I've read these
sorts of posts on Democratic Underground and Kos and recognize them and people who post in those forums for the insane hate-mongers that they are. Easily
dismissing them as raving paranoids. But not here... Damnit. I should've just ignored this forum. Edited it out. Marked it as read. But I clicked out of
morbid curiosity.
Now I'm confronted with the fact that people I thought I knew - I don't really know if I know.
I knew you guys didn't like Bush, but figured it was at the level of disagreement that we could agree to disagree with. But, I am literally sick to my
stomach wondering how people that I like and have had fun conversing with can think this way.
I wonder if I even tried to debate - would I destroy friendships? Would I be considered "evil" for
"defending a murderer"?
I can't BELIEVE I'm even thinking like this, but finishing this thread and just sitting here staring at the screen, I've started thinking about
leaving, destroying my Yuku account, and dropping out from this board. Then I wondered - if I did that, could I even continue playing in the COH game? I
suppose I'd have to drop the Legendary, move my characters to a different server, change my global...
Yes, you sound that bad. You have now scared me, because where once I saw reason, now I see insanity.
- M Fnord - 06-17-2008
Dude, lay the fuck off the dramatics.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery
FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information
"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
- Bob Schroeck - 06-17-2008
Hey, Logan, note that I'm regaling people with office scuttlebutt. Hardly anything to call serious. But it does point out that the current administration
has one hell of an image problem if such a large number of the voting populace actually thinks Bush declaring martial law is worth even bullshitting about over
the water cooler.
I'd also point out that -- as far as we know -- he's nowhere near as close to actually doing it as Nixon got; Nixon actually went so far as to ask the
RAND Corp. about the feasibility of cancelling the 1972 elections to keep the country out of the hands of the so-called "Youth Movement".
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Evil Midnight Lurker - 06-18-2008
And I'm genuinely curious about the impeachment process in general, not specifically Bush (like, what if Ford had done a Heel Face Turn and not pardoned Nixon when he resigned? What would the next step have been?)
--Sam
"How dare you! I know evil is bad, but come on! Eating kittens is just plain... plain wrong, and no one should do it! EVER!"
- M Fnord - 06-18-2008
Quote:And I'm genuinely curious about the impeachment process in general, not specifically Bush (like, what if Ford had done a Heel Face Turn and not pardoned Nixon when he resigned? What would the next step have been?)
Well, when it comes to an impeachment the broad strokes are pretty simple. If Nixon had decided to try and ride it out, impeachment proceedings would have begun in the House, moved to the Senate for the trial and from there it was reasonably certain he'd be convicted. Now, an impeach & convict doesn't automatically mean he goes to jail, just that he'd be booted out of office immediately on conviction and (probably) be barred from running for public office ever again. Impeachment doesn't count as double jeopardy under the Consitution, so had Nixon been impeached he would've still been potentially criminally liable. At that point it's procedurally just another felony case with all the attendant ups and downs.
In *that* situation, Ford could still have pardoned Nixon (the crimes, not the impeachment), though if things had gotten that far he'd have been burned out of the White House if he did.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery
FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information
"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"