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+--- Thread: Obama has already stumbled diplomatically (/showthread.php?tid=3686)
Obama has already stumbled diplomatically - Logan Darklighter - 11-14-2008
Just so you know, I'm trying to be fair here. My personal policy is not give in to ODS (Obama Derangement
Syndrome, as opposed to B(ush)DS). I have my bias of course, and I'm going to be critical of Obama, but I'll try and keep it to things he actually
does, rather than things that he is anticipated to do. No wild conspiracy theories here.
That said, I think in terms of foreign relations, he may already have shot himself in the foot. And that's not good for the country as a whole. And
I'll bet you that the WAY in which he shot himself is something you didn't even think of.
To wit -
Remember this story?
Drudge reports:
Quote: Just hours after President Bush and President-elect Obama met in the Oval Office of the White House, details of their confidential conversation began leaking
out to the press, igniting anger from the president, sources claim.
"Senator Obama would be wise to keep close counsel," a top Bush source warned.
"BUSH AND OBAMA AT ODDS OVER AID FOR AUTO INDUSTRY," splashed the NEW YORK TIMES in an exclusive Monday evening, quoting "people familiar
with the discussion."
The two met at the White House in private, without staff.
"Bush indicated at the meeting that he might support some aid and a broader economic stimulus package if Obama and congressional Democrats
dropped their opposition to a free-trade agreement with Colombia," claimed the TIMES. . . .
The ASSOCIATED PRESS quickly followed with details of the conversation, citing "aides who described the discussion on grounds of anonymity, citing
the private nature of the meeting."
Bush advisers view the leaks as an effort to undermine the president's remaining days in office.
"Senator Obama may not be familiar with a long-standing tradition of presidents holding their private conversations, private," a senior adviser
explained to the DRUDGE REPORT.
The Bush adviser was being kind.
Put yourself in the position of, say, the Prime Minister of England. You look across the pond and think to yourself. "Uh oh, I better cover my ass when
I meet with Obama. Should I record all our meetings? Never meet him alone and stick to having staff around? How well can we trust that state secrets will stay
safe?"
Let's be clear. To make meetings between leaders worth while, they must be able to trust each other. The major part of that trust is built on the
assumption that their private discussions will remain confidential. Barack Obama has just informed world leaders that he cannot be trusted with confidential
information. So much for Obama personal diplomacy as a cure all for America's international problems. Not good.
And no I'm NOT happy and this is not schadenfreude. This is potentially bad for the country, not just for him. He can fix it, possibly, by being
scrupulous from here on out. But he's already started off on the wrong foot.
EDIT:
Okay, since perhaps you'd like more attributions for this. Here are a few culled from a Google search (which anyone can do)
US News and World
Report Article
Gawker Article
Edit: Fixed two of the links. But the Reuters one doesn't seem to exist anymore. Strange.
- Wiregeek - 11-14-2008
got any proof that it was Obama leaking, and not the Shrub?
"No can brain today. Want cheezeburger."
From NGE: Nobody Dies, by Gregg Landsman
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5579457/1/NGE_Nobody_Dies
- Logan Darklighter - 11-14-2008
(Looks incredulously at you) Dude... Did you not read the story? I posted it in full rather than link it because it was SHORT and easy to read! C'mon!
(Edit - actually I did link it, but that was only so that you could see the original source. There's nothing more there than what I posted, really.)
- Logan Darklighter - 11-14-2008
Oh - one other thing before I go hunting down more attributions.
You may hate the guys guts, but when did you ever hear of Bush ever leaking anything of a private nature? The man may be a dick in your eyes, but I think even
you would have to admit, he's scrupulous about playing it close to the vest. Furthermore, he didn't leak anything about what he and Clinton talked
about in their meeting before Bush took office. There is precedent for this sort of thing after all, and Obama should have known better and had more class.
After all, isn't he supposed to be the more sophisticated one?
Not leaking? - Rev Dark - 11-14-2008
Valerie Plame
The Naheem Leak
That's two just off the top of my head.
So yes, Bush leaks like an incontinent at a lemonade stand.
- Logan Darklighter - 11-14-2008
Ah thanks for the predictable "THEY DID IT TOO!!!!" response, there, Rev.
The Valerie Plame leak is of an entirely different type. And it wasn't Bush that leaked that, as you would know if you bothered to research it.
Quote:On August 30, 2006, the New York TimesFrom the wikipedia article on the affair.
reports that the lawyer and other associates of Mr. Armitage confirmed
he was Novak's "initial and primary source" for Plame's identity.[23] The New York Times
also reports "Mr. Armitage cooperated voluntarily in the case, never
hired a lawyer and testified several times to the grand jury, according
to people who are familiar with his role and actions in the case. He
turned over his calendars, datebooks and even his wife’s computer in
the course of the inquiry, those associates said. But Mr. Armitage kept
his actions secret, not even telling President Bush because the
prosecutor asked him not to divulge it, the people said... Mr. Armitage
had prepared a resignation letter, his associates said. But he stayed
on the job because State Department officials advised that his sudden
departure could lead to the disclosure of his role in the leak, the
people aware of his actions said.... He resigned in November 2004, but
remained a subject of the inquiry until [February 2006] when the
prosecutor advised him in a letter that he would not be charged."
As to Naheem? Haven't ever heard of that one.
Oh and by the way - If you're so dead set on Obama being better than Bush, shouldn't he actually be - you know - BETTER?
- Rev Dark - 11-14-2008
Logan, is logic something that just happens to other people?
You cannot claim, as you did,
Quote: "You may hate the guys guts, but when did you ever hear of Bush ever leaking anything of a private nature?"
And then pitch a hissy when you are called on the lie and try and create a straw man figure of my comments.
Quote: "Oh and by the way - If you're so dead set on Obama being better than Bush, shouldn't he actually be - you know - BETTER? "
At no point in my rebuttal did I imply that Obama was better than Bush in this regard, only that your assertions concerning Bush and his administration were
demonstrably false.
Digging further into the NIE leak, especially in the light of recent interviews by McLellan, paint a rather different picture. So yes, I did research it.
Cheers,
Shayne
- Logan Darklighter - 11-15-2008
Quote: Logan, is logic something that just happens to other people?
You cannot claim, as you did,
Quote: "You may hate the guys guts, but when did you ever hear of Bush ever leaking anything of a private nature?"
And then pitch a hissy when you are called on the lie
Are you directly calling me a liar, sir?
Let's look at this again.
Quote: "You may hate the guys guts, but when did you ever hear of Bush ever leaking anything of a private nature?"I'll give you another chance here. I'm all about being fair. And I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that perhaps I did not make
myself as clear as I should have. In the statement above, I meant HIM. Himself. Personally. NOT his staff, NOT his administration. HIM. President G.W. Bush
himself. I've never heard of him talking about the details of a private meeting when it was supposed to be private. Yes, the administration has leaked
before. But this was a traditional private meeting between an outgoing president and an incoming one. And President Bush has never, to the best of my
knowledge, vouchsafed details of meetings like that, or any meeting where it was just him and someone else. (Hell, Clinton, for all that I've been hard on
him for a lot of things, did the same thing - he kept the incoming/outgoing private meetings between Bushes senior and Jr. private.)
So. You want to call me a liar again? Better think DAMN HARD about that, SIR! You can call me wrong all you
like, but you'd better NOT be calling me a liar!
As to "pitching a hissy". Well I wasn't mad before. But I'll own up to being pretty steamed right about now.
- Logan Darklighter - 11-15-2008
Oh and BTW - Naheem leak? Links please? I've never heard of this.
- robkelk - 11-15-2008
Quote:(Looks incredulously at you) Dude... Did you not read the story? I posted it in full rather than link it because it was SHORT and easy to read! C'mon! (Edit - actually I did link it, but that was only so that you could see the original source. There's nothing more there than what I posted, really.)
(goes and reads the story)
Logan, there isn't a blessed thing in that story even hinting at who leaked the story... except that the meeting was "in private, without staff". Thus, either:
- one of the two people present is responsible for the leak,
- the Oval Office is bugged, or
- the "leak" is a work of fiction.
Given the published track records of all involved, I'd say all three possibilities are equally likely...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- Wiregeek - 11-15-2008
Quote:Logan, there isn't a blessed thing in that story even hinting at who leaked the story
Which was why I asked my question. 'The Shrub' being derogatory language towards Bush. I don't have anything witty enough for Obama yet to waste my time using.
The ensuing shitstorm, however, is proving quite amusing.
"No can brain today. Want cheezeburger."
From NGE: Nobody Dies, by Gregg Landsman
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5579457/1/NGE_Nobody_Dies
- Fidoohki - 11-15-2008
Actaully neither leaked it. I heard this while watching the news on tv so I haven't dug around for a link yet
but On the flight back to chicago, Obama was talking with an aide concerning the meeting but an AP reporter
was lipreading Obama as they talked. It is an odd explanation but plausable.
- Logan Darklighter - 11-15-2008
Huh...! That's an odd possibility, but I could buy that. I'll go look into it.
- Rev Dark - 11-15-2008
Quote: Are you directly calling me a liar, sir?
Aww, will you be threatening to leave too? Your false outrage and histrionics grow tiresome.
No I am not calling you a liar. That was a poor choice of words on my part. My apologies. I will instead call you deliberately disingenuous and possessing a
hypocritical double standard. I do however expect a matching apology for your deliberate attempt to miss portray my position.
Quote: I'll give you another chance here. I'm all about being fair
No, you are many things, but fair is not among them, at least in regards to your conduct in political discourse.
Quote: And I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that perhaps I did not make myself as clear as I should have. In the statement above, I meant HIM. Himself.
Personally. NOT his staff, NOT his administration.
This is rather more damming. Let us forget for the moment that your post was predicated on Obama personally releasing details of a private conversation to the
media, through his aides; a charge that is at this time unproven and unfounded. Not the same standard which you seek to apply to Bush's conduct in regards
to private conversations. That double standard I alluded to earlier.
That is highly duplicitous on your part; and I am sorry to say; very obvious.
Shall we parse this statement from your rebuttal?
Quote:
And it wasn't Bush that leaked that, as you would know if you bothered to research it.
The record of Scooter Libby's trial is rather well documented, but Bush is still trying to block the transcripts from examination. The release of the
Plame's role was deliberate, and according the Libby's testimony, at the request of the executive. In other words, Bush deliberately ordered the leak
of information that put Plame in danger, put all activities she was assigned to in the last decades under investigation, and all people she worked with during
that time in danger.
It is something rather overlooked in the whole affair. It was not just her. Everything she was known to be associated in the last decade was opened up like
Paris Hilton in whatever green-tinted video you procure. Covert operations exposed. People put at risk. Valuable, carefully nurtured contacts thrown to the
winds.
And Bush did not have the courage to do it himself, but rather left it to his minions; including allowing one to take one for the team; with a commute of the
prison time for lying and obstructing, a foregone conclusion. Especially as by lying and obstructing, Libby was able to keep the administration shielded from
the investigation.
Now perhaps he did not know? A possibility. Perhaps it was all engineered by the Vice-President and like a Faulknerian man-child the President was above the
incident in a cloud of ignorance.
Let me be the first to say, I have my doubts. Bush is demonstrably vindictive.
Bush has leaked private information, and deliberately ordering another to do so in his stead, is just as damming as if it came from his own lips. Your praising
him for such is no praise.
Cheers,
Shayne