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Papers Please? - Wiregeek - 12-12-2009
http://www.rifters.com/crawl/?p=932
http://www.rifters.com/crawl/?p=935
I have nothing to add - I am currently incandescently furious. Anyone who reads this and works in law enforcement in America should be ashamed.
"No can brain today. Want cheezeburger."
From NGE: Nobody Dies, by Gregg Landsman
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5579457/1/NGE_Nobody_Dies
- Niteflier - 12-12-2009
WTF?!?
Oh, I can't wait for this shitstorm to hit the news. Is there an exact location that this happened available?
That border station is going to get reamed, if I have to go up there myself.
- Wiregeek - 12-12-2009
http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/12/12 ... ?art_pos=3
the slashdot article.
No real additional information, but tonight, I'm praying for Canadian lawyers with shark grins and freshly-sharpened blades... Fuck these assholes where it
actually hurts, in the budget.
"No can brain today. Want cheezeburger."
From NGE: Nobody Dies, by Gregg Landsman
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5579457/1/NGE_Nobody_Dies
- Foxboy - 12-12-2009
Some kerfuffle over reporting what happened. According to the guy beaten, etc., he was LEAVING the US. A Detroit paper's got him entering the US instead.
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''
-- James Nicoll
- Sofaspud - 12-12-2009
If it happened as depicted, then incandescently furious is very apt. And I have no great love for American police and especially not for border guards, who
are one step removed at the best of times from petty thuggery.
All that said...
I have yet to see any -- and I mean *any* -- sort of unbiased reporting on this. Every single story is playing the "nasty Americans beat up a poor
defenseless guy who didn't do ANYTHING". Which may well have happened, but goddammit, I don't buy it.
Did he do something worthy of what he *claims* is his subsequent treatment? Probably -- almost certainly -- not. But I can't imagine him being lily-white
innocent. He did something. And yeah, the guards overreacted, and yeah, they need to get slapped hard for it... but this guy needs to admit his own issues as
well. My guess is he mouthed off and a guard with slightly fewer brains than normal overreacted, and from there it just went to hell.
Regardless, I'd like to see some actual goddamn journalism, some reporting, happening here... 'cause right now it's just a pity-party and the only
people saying anything have axes to grind and personal connections to the guy playing the victim card.
--sofaspud
--"Listening to your kid is the audio equivalent of a Salvador Dali painting, Spud." --OpMegs
- Black Aeronaut - 12-12-2009
Quote: From Not the Best ofWell, there you have it: he disobeyed their orders. Now, granted it should not warrant the beating that he got, but it would explain why he was
Possible Worlds:
Along some other timeline, I did not get out of the car to ask what was going on. I did not repeat that question when refused an answer and told to get back
into the vehicle.
even in this position in the first place. When waved over to the side by any law enforcement personnel, you do what you are told, no ifs, ands, or buts about
it. Granted, you have certain rights, but if you get out of the car and you are told to get your ass back in there, then dammit, you stupid fool, you get yer
ass back in there! Otherwise your non-compliance can be taken as hostile intent.
- Kurisu - 12-12-2009
I agree with BA, but there has to be a certain line that shouldn't be crossed.
I got a gun shoved into my face when I rolled down the window to answer the cop when he approached my car over a traffic violation. (brake light out)
_____
DEATH is Certain. The hour, Uncertain...
- Black Aeronaut - 12-12-2009
Quote: Kurisu wrote:eeeeyyyaaaaahhhh, thaaaaat's a bit of an over-reaction. That said, there's things that are completely unwarranted. This guy's
I agree with BA, but there has to be a certain line that shouldn't be crossed.
I got a gun shoved into my face when I rolled down the window to answer the cop when he approached my car over a traffic violation. (brake light out)
treatment was unwarranted as your having a gun shoved in your face. Sure, he could have avoided the situation by complying, but now these border patrol guys
will probably get away with most of the charges simply because 'the subject was non-compliant.' *Sighs*
- Bluemage - 12-12-2009
Should this be in Politics?
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.
I've been writing a bit.
- robkelk - 12-12-2009
Bluemage Wrote:Should this be in Politics?I'd think so, yes...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- Bob Schroeck - 12-13-2009
I'll move it now.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Morganite - 12-13-2009
According to commenter "Elizabeth" in that post, it's actually quite abnormal for people to be required to stay in their car, so that could
explain part of that - it could be normal to get out when going through Canadian customs, which he might have more experience with.
Even before getting to the rest of it, I think for not being able to provide so much as a ten second answer to his question, they need to be destroyed.
-Morgan.
- khagler - 12-15-2009
I came across an article which addresses this incident in the context of cop behavior in general.
- Wiregeek - 12-15-2009
Quote:And the conclusion, as demonstrated by various examples, was that those who act as mercenaries for the politicians (while pretending to be "protectors") are not our friends, care nothing about individual rights, and make society more dangerous, not safer.
oh, oh my..
"No can brain today. Want cheezeburger."
From NGE: Nobody Dies, by Gregg Landsman
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5579457/1/NGE_Nobody_Dies
- Epsilon - 12-15-2009
Yeah, that article is just little bit biased.
But then again, it comes from an anarchy website.
------------------
Epsilon
- Bob Schroeck - 12-15-2009
The sad thing is that his bias isn't entirely wrong... it's been a long time since I've encountered a cop who didn't have a bit of arrogant bully swagger in his manner, even the polite, professional ones.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Sofaspud - 12-15-2009
I'm not defending the bully attitude that a lot of cops have, despite what the rest of this is going to sound like.
I think a lot of people mistake professional paranoia for bullying. My mother was a cop, and I grew up learning how cops view the world. As a police officer,
you must assume everyone is out to get you -- because the one time you don't is the time you'll encounter the person who is.
As a result, cops -- both by inclination and by training -- try to ensure that they are the only person in control of any given situation they find themselves
in. -Any- resistance to this control -- even something as seemingly innocent as a question -- is potentially a threat. It's precisely how things escalate
-- a question is not a request for information, it's a protest against the control of the situation and immediately sets a cops nerves on edge. Every
drunk they've had throw a punch at them, every gang member who has pulled a gun, all of it... began with the person questioning what they were ordered to
do.
It's not an excuse for bullying behavior, but what I'm trying to convey is that, in general, the cops aren't trying to be bullies. They're just all too aware that if they don't control the situation, the suspect will -- and that
way lies problems.
The downside to this is that the insistence on absolute control by the cops results in the public perceiving them as bullies. And sometimes they are, yes.
Most times they are not, they're just stuck doing a job that is difficult, dangerous, thankless, and dehumanizing. They're not allowed to make
judgement calls; the public treats them like shit; some of the people they're supposed to arrest are better armed than they are AND eager to fight (which
most cops are not); and no matter how they handle a given situation the media and the public will put the worst
possible spin on it.
Let's face it, being a cop is not a fun job.
Again, I'm not defending the actual bullies -- and there ARE bullies on the force. The uniform attracts them because it's perceived as power, and
bullies above all want power over others. But the majority of the force is made up of tired folks who never get anything but the dirty end of the stick and
who are constantly being threatened by the people they're supposedly supposed to protect -- threatened physically, financially ("I was drunk and
disorderly but THEY assaulted ME! I'm suing!"), and psychologically. If you don't believe the last, you haven't seen the inside of a
precinct. Cops band together against everyone else because we (society) has fostered the "us vs them" mentality, but they're brutal to each
other as well, because none of them want one of the others giving them a bad name.
In short... yeah, you may have encountered bully cops. I won't dispute that. But my money would be on the cop just being stressed and overreacting to
what YOU thought was an innocent question, comment, remark, or action. It may well have been, but he has no way of knowing that and YOU have no way of knowing
what happened the last time Joe Criminal made that same move and the cop didn't stop him in time.
I'm not defending bullies, but the public in general needs to learn that it's NOT always the cop's fault. Next time a cop pulls you over,
don't assume he's being a bully, assume he's approaching you with the viewpoint that you are armed, drunk, escaped from the nearest mental
institution, and high -- all at the same time. Until he's convinced you're not, anything you do that reinforces that image -- especially things like
repeating his questions with that incredulous tone in your voice, like you can't believe he's asking YOU, fine upstanding citizen that you are, a
QUESTION, my GOD -- will immediately kick him into high gear. Which, if you're the sort to assume cops are bullies in the first place, will likely cause
you to display more attitude... and thus the cycle escalates.
Be smart. Do what you're told, when you're told to do it, with no backtalk. If you're convinced of your innocence and you feel the cop is
breaking the law, the solution is NOT to get into an argument over the fine points of legal interpretation with him right then and there, it's to address
it later when there's no chance of someone getting shot.
I'm probably going to get flamed for 'blaming the victim' or some such bullshit, but I'm not. I'm pointing out that, except in some rare
cases, the average 'victim' of police brutality helped escalate the situation themselves. No, it still shouldn't have happened -- just like this
writer, regardless of what he did, shouldn't have been beaten (if he indeed was) and thrown in jail. But neither did the border guards just decide
"hey, let's beat up the next Canadian to come by!"
--sofaspud
--"Listening to your kid is the audio equivalent of a Salvador Dali painting, Spud." --OpMegs
- DHBirr - 12-16-2009
I agree with Sofaspud's latest. Back when I was in college, I read Joseph Wambaugh's The Choirboys and got something of a cop's-eye view
of existence. "He didn't even know us. We're just ... just ... blue symbols!"
-----
Big Brother is watching you. And damn, you are so bloody BORING.
- Wiregeek - 12-16-2009
and does any of this excuse the following?
I could keep this up all day.
I disagree with Spud, and with DHBirr. I do not believe that the abuse of power is in any way excused by the environment in which LEOs work.
"No can brain today. Want cheezeburger."
From NGE: Nobody Dies, by Gregg Landsman
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5579457/1/NGE_Nobody_Dies
- khagler - 12-16-2009
I think Sofaspud is actually agreeing, he just doesn't realize that's what he's doing. Cops are pretty well known for their arrogance and open belief that they are superior beings whose lives are infinitely more valuable than the common peasantry. If I (or any other non-cop) behaved to cops the way they routinely behave towards the rest of us, I would certainly be dead by the end of the day. Cops are the enemy of because they have chosen to be.
- Sofaspud - 12-16-2009
I didn't say the abuse of power was excused by the environment they work in, I was saying that the sorts of incidents we are talking about are escalated to
the level they are at least in part due to our -- ie, civilian's -- attitudes towards the police, and the police attitudes towards us.
As I stated in my post, this is not an excuse for cops behaving badly. They should be held to a higher standard of
behavior. But reality is what it is, and expecting that is unrealistic at best. The system is broken, and a good chunk of it is in my opinion because
civilians in general behave badly towards people who are already tense as-is.
Look at it this way: would YOU mouth off to a soldier on the battlefield carrying a loaded gun? The comparison is deliberately extreme, but the point is the
same.
I've never once said that police abuses of power are justified. What I'm trying to explain is (1) why they happen, and will continue to happen, since
-- hello? -- they're people like anyone else and people are flawed, and (2) in many -- I would say most, but I can't prove it -- cases, the events
leading to the abuse of power are due in no small part to the civilian involved not thinking about the possible consequences
of his or her actions.
Khagler: I'd like to know what you think I'm agreeing with, because based on the tone and content of the rest of your post, I don't think you
understood my point -- nor do I think you tried very hard, as your words were easily as biased as the article linked earlier in the thread. Cops as the
enemy? I don't see cops as the enemy. Nor are they my friend. They're tired, stressed, generally
lower-middle-class average Joes who have one of the worst jobs in the world. Nobody likes them (myself included).
I pity the poor bastards, and I fear them a little, but they're not my enemy. That attitude is half the goddamn problem right there.
--sofaspud
--"Listening to your kid is the audio equivalent of a Salvador Dali painting, Spud." --OpMegs
- Epsilon - 12-16-2009
Quote: khagler wrote:This is unmitigated bullshit.
I think Sofaspud is actually agreeing, he just doesn't realize that's what he's doing. Cops are pretty well known for their arrogance and open
belief that they are superior beings whose lives are infinitely more valuable than the common peasantry. If I (or any other non-cop) behaved to cops the way
they routinely behave towards the rest of us, I would certainly be dead by the end of the day. Cops are the enemy of because they have
chosen to be.
Claiming cops are the enemy because of a few bad apples is ridiculous over the top insanity on the level of believing the Bush administration orchestrated
9/11.
The cops who commit flagrant abuses of power should be punished, this is uncontested. To leap from there to "fuck all cops" is anarchist lunacy.
---------------------
Epsilon
- Wiregeek - 12-16-2009
Quote:The cops who commit flagrant abuses of power should be punished, this is uncontested.
Wholeheartedly agreed!
Quote:To leap from there to "fuck all cops" is anarchist lunacy.
I defy you to find me one news story of a police department or even a single cop stating in public, for the record, that a police officer did wrong.
The 'fuck all cops' standpoint, which noone in this thread except you has espoused, is a logical development of the Thin Blue Line and the Code of Silence.
Claiming that all cops are the enemy is a sound point of view, with a lot of support available.
"No can brain today. Want cheezeburger."
From NGE: Nobody Dies, by Gregg Landsman
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5579457/1/NGE_Nobody_Dies
- Valles - 12-16-2009
Claiming that cops are the 'enemy' is, in my mind, sort of like claiming that garbagemen or sewer maintenance guys are a menace to society. They've got a thankless and miserable job that just happens to be utterly indispensable to a real, functioning society. Oh, and, theirs is bloody dangerous on top of being unpleasant.
Are there abuses? Do some of them go too far? Do the examples cited in this thread qualify? Absolutely. But the real world, the one that includes actual people at any point, let alone both sides, rather than ideal principles, is imperfect on a statistical bell curve, from shining beacons of heroism to truly ugly fuckups. The moral outrage rightly spurred by cases like this needs to be used to minimize the number of 'zeroes' rather than rail against the inherent villainy of the system, because frankly, anyone who thinks that we can afford to go tossing out this particular baby, no matter how nasty the bathwater is, is deluding themselves something fierce.
===========
===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."
- Epsilon - 12-16-2009
Quote: Wiredgeek wrote:
I defy you to find me one news story of a police department or even a single cop stating in public, for the record, that a police officer did wrong.
http://www.democraticunde...&address=132x1951396
Five seconds on google.
-------------------
Epsilon