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+--- Thread: Was I wrong about Champions being the place to go? (/showthread.php?tid=5841)
Was I wrong about Champions being the place to go? - Logan Darklighter - 10-30-2012
EDIT: I'm not as negative now as I was when I posted this originally. I'm still concerned. But really there's not much point in worrying about it. We'll just have to play it by ear and have as much fun as we can with the character concepts we've created.
This is a potential problem from this thread.
Quote:[table][/table] Originally Posted by ruiiji
If a company has a stock quote, it will have an annual report as they are required by the market regulators to file these. Since PWRD is an "ADR" class stock, they file less info.
But in any case you do not need to own stock in any company to get this info. Go to their website and look for "Investor Relations".
http://www.pwrd.com/html/en/annual_report.html
I browsed through their last annual report, and unfortunately until the next one is published, you won't know if Cryptic's numbers will be called out as a line item.
Good info, thank you Ruiiji! I'll share a key part I found:
Quote:
[table][/table] We have adopted an item-based revenue model for all but one of our self-developed games and intend to apply this revenue model to most of our new games. This revenue model may have a negative impact on our financial condition and results of operations.
We have adopted an item-based revenue model for all of our self-developed games except for our first MMORPG, Perfect World, for which we use a time-based model whereby players are charged for their playing time. Going forward, we intend to continue applying the item-based model to most of the new games that we operate.
Under the item-based revenue model, players are able to play the online game free of charge for an unlimited amount of time, but are charged for purchases of in-game items, such as performance-enhancing items, clothing, accessories and pets. While several other online game companies have adopted the item-based model, it is still relatively new compared to the more proven time-based model and results in new risks and uncertainties for us. The item-based model requires us to design games that not only attract players to spend more time playing, but also encourage them to purchase in-game items. The sale of in-game items requires us to track closely consumer tastes and preferences, especially in-game spending trends. In addition, the item-based model may cause additional concerns with the PRC regulators, who have been trying to implement ways to reduce the amount of time that Chinese youths spend on online games. A model that does not charge for time may be viewed by the PRC regulators as inconsistent with this goal. We cannot assure you that the item-based revenue model will continue to be successful, or that it will not have a negative impact on our future financial condition and results of operations.
Our revenue recognition policy for the item-based games entails our best estimates of the lives of various items associated with each of our item-based games. As we adopted the item-based revenue model beginning in September 2006, we have a limited operating history and data for our item-based games on which to base our revenue recognition policy for such games. With respect to permanent ownership items that we sell to players, we recognize revenues over the estimated lives of such items. We consider the average period that players typically play our games and other player behavior patterns to arrive at our best estimates for the lives of these permanent ownership items, which, in some cases, may be as long as the estimated life of the related game.
However, given the relatively short operating history of our item-based games, our estimate of the period that players typically play our games may not accurately reflect the actual lives of the items. We have been revising our estimates as we continue to gain operating data and refine our estimation process and results accordingly.
Any future revisions to these estimates could adversely affect the time period during which we recognize revenues from these items. For example, an increase in the estimated lives of these items would increase the period over which revenues from these items are recognized. See ?Item 5. Operating and Financial Review and Prospects?Critical Accounting Policies?Revenue Recognition.?
6
If we are unable to successfully develop, launch and/or operate additional online games that grow our player base and increase our revenues, our future results of operations will be adversely affected.
In order for our business strategy to succeed over time, we will need to continually develop, launch and operate new online games or license or acquire new games that are commercially successful. We will need to do this to both replace our existing online games as they reach the end of their useful economic lives, which we believe are typically three to five years for most of our online games, and to meet our growth strategy of operating a larger number of online games that grow our overall player base and increase our revenues.
We plan to invest a significant amount of financial and personnel resources in developing, launching and operating new online games. The success of our new online games will largely depend on our ability to anticipate and effectively respond to changing consumer tastes and preferences and technological advances in a timely manner. We cannot assure you that the games we develop will be launched as scheduled, viewed by the regulatory authorities as complying with content restrictions, attractive to players, able to compete with games operated by our competitors or commercially successful. In addition, as we introduce new games, some of our existing customers may switch to the new games. If this transfer of players from our existing games does not grow our overall player base and revenues, our growth and profitability may be materially and adversely
affected
But you know what I find is crazy? In not section do they mention how they plan on attracting new players. Champions Online is not advertised at all by Perfect World to my knowledge, it's all word-of-mouth. Any you know what f***s over word-of-mouth more than anything? Customers getting frustrated with half-baked content and no new additions.
Additionally they don't even mention the fact that is cheaper to keep making new content for an existing game, whereas creating or buying up a created game engine is FAR more expensive. Makes me wonder just what the hell they are spending their money on...
This focus of PWE's model neglects to pay attention to the fact that for this specific market it's content in the form of explorable stuff and powersets and freeform slots (or lifetime access) that is the REAL driver of the business. Apparently keys might be a part of that, as it all goes into the same revenue pool.
Do note that they say this stuff IS tracked "closely" whatever the hell that means exactly is anybody's guess. I'm not even sure if most of the Cryptic employees know the answer to that. Also leaves me wondering if that is a good tracking system, or if it's as finicky as the Auction House GUI or the ill-tested Level 60 Mega D patch.
![[Image: viewpost.gif]](http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif)
Quote:[table][/table] Originally Posted by rapierwhip
It is the exact same thing as a grab bag... even has the same price tag associated with it. the only difference is that you have to find the bag as a drop and buy the right to find out what you should have been awarded without having to pay extra for it. To the best of my observations, the boxes are not hard to find at all... I found three in less than five minutes of random mob bashing... and the boxes seem to have replaced normal drops entirely since in that same five minutes, I got exactly two other drops: both recog tokens.
I've stuck in here through targeting bugs, costume bugs, power bugs, power nerfs, administration overhauls, Vibora Pay scandal, APs, CSs, and Alerts, and thought that nothing could actually drive me away from this game. Paying for the loot that I should get for free through normal game play might just be the thing though.
They have something similar to this in DCUO, called Promethium Lockboxes. You get the box randomly in a loot drop and have to buy the key to open it... but here's the thing: Legendary Members (i.e. subscribers or Gold Members here) get an unlimited number of keys for free. I never really thought I would see the day when I would say that Sony is treating its customers better than another company.
Quote:
Quote:I haven't been playing lately so I haven't had to check this out yet, but this paints a scary picture of what this game might become if this is accurate and intended to be the way things are going to be for now on. The idea of even non-subscribers being expected to gamble in order to get access to loot (and I assume by extention random gear) is already bad enough. But to do that to people that already subscribe takes it to a whole other level.
Doing it to non-subscribers is bad because it expect them to become gamblers in order to financially support the game they're playing for "free". But bad as that is there is a justification for that--the game is "free", it has to make money to support itself some way. Its an (horrible) alternate business model in a game that requires no monthy payments to sustain the game.
But isn't financially supporting the game what we have always payed $15/month on a subscription for? What's the justification for doing the same to subscribers? Double dipping much?
Quote:
[table][/table] Originally Posted by Quoted Report posted by agentnx5
In order for our business strategy to succeed over time, we will need to continually develop, launch and operate new online games or license or acquire new games that are commercially successful. We will need to do this to both replace our existing online games as they reach the end of their useful economic lives, which we believe are typically three to five years for most of our online games, and to meet our growth strategy of operating a larger number of online games that grow our overall player base and increase our revenues.
In other words, they don't CARE about the growth and longivity of the game. They just want to regurgitate games and keep them around while it brings them profit.
And the difference with other games/companies? Other games have to keep their game growing and their players occupied in order to retain their players--the game has to be sustained. Here, the focus is on selling the players access to random loot while enough players play the game, then close it down when it meets the end of its economic usefulness. Growth in order to maintain the sustainability of the game is irrelevant. The game doesn't have to be sustained, just generate enough money on the here and now to keep it running then close it down when the players no longer care.
Quote:As someone still nursing the wounds of NCsoft's "realignment" that shut down City of Heroes... that statement about a game outliving its economic usefulness isn't very encouraging.
Edit number 2: This could still be a problem in the long run. I hope we can still have fun in Champions. But just be aware that the game is what it is and likely isn't going to get any further support.
I'm a little more optimistic now than when I first posted this. After popping into the game now and then and noting that Terry and others are indeed having a good time, I guess I'm happier about helping out, even if the game eventually does get shot down in a few years.
- Terrenceknight - 10-30-2012
Overreact much? Let people make their own decisions to play Champions online or not honestly all this means is don't bother with paying for a lifetime sub instead just pay monthly or hell free to play if Freeform isn't important to ya. Play the game, have fun and don't freaking stress over what may or may not happen at some random undefined time as all that will do is cause unnecessary stress, enough with the doom and gloom already I've had enough of that over CoH's closure.
Thats my 2 cents.
Terr.
PS. For folks planning to play (or playing) Our Paragon Legend's SG bank is Filled up with Modifications so you'll be well taken care of for slotting gear and I've been dropping off useful devices in the bank to use. got some high level gear in there for when people cap a character and have a tab dedicated to Mods for people to fuse if they want to level a crafting skill. I've done some of the heavy lifting so just come and have a bit of fun without the stress of grind.
- Ankhani - 10-30-2012
The Official Forums, while occasionally a source of good info, are also highly volatile and easily provoked. I don't see anything here that says the game is a dead-end. It's a bunch of businessmen covering their asses by not putting anything in writing they can't live up to. The Forumites are taking this information and blowing it entirely out of proportion, just like they always do. This changes absolutely nothing.
---
The Master said: "It is all in vain! I have never yet seen a man who can perceive his own faults and bring the charge home against himself."
>Analects: Book V, Chaper XXVI
- Logan Darklighter - 10-30-2012
I guess so. If you guys are still happy with it, then I guess it's okay.
- Dragonflight - 11-01-2012
Forums aren't a source of reliable business data, or what the company intends to do long-term. A good example of this is to troll a site with just one marginally inflammatory post, then come back a day or so later and see how out of control the topic has become.
People *love* to argue, and if anyone gives them a soapbox, off they go!I've heard that until a couple months ago, the crafting system was similar to CoX in that you could make things. Now it's just minor boosts to the loot table. That sounds like they're moving the emphasis from in-game versatility to C-store based credit mining. Whether the game has a Plan going forward to do things the players will like, I haven't a clue. Just play it with one eye open to the potential for shutdown.
I wonder if it's bad karma to hope that some of those people on cohtitan succeed with "Plan Z"...? It might be the only way to get a decent online game going after all this settles.
---
Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do.
- Acyl - 11-02-2012
You don't need financial reports to understand where things stand. It's really quite simple. Champions Online doesn't have much of a content stream.
There hasn't been substantial story content and new maps added since 2011 - there has been stuff added this year, but that's the On Alert system, which is quick instance-based gameplay good for minutes at best, not long play stretches. There have been new powersets added in 2012, significant power revamps, crafting changes, and so on, that's all real stuff.
But we know the lifeblood of an MMO is new content in terms of quests, dungeon instances, raids, and so on. Champions Online simply doesn't have that. Things looked good in 2011, but obviously now they don't have the resources, dev team priority, or both.
With that said, what's the alternative? DCUO is a decent game - I've upgraded my opinion slightly after giving it a fairer shake. But it's a terrible game for roleplayers and awful for modelling original character concepts given the restrictions on available powers, lack of customisation, and loot-locked appearance options. DCUO does have a regular content stream, but that's tied to cash DLC - and it will always be tied to DLC, because that's the model, and because it's also a console game.
We know this. Anyone who's done the research, who's spent more than a few minutes thinking about this knows that neither game is a true replacement for City of Heroes. But there is no replacement within the genre. It's not a matter of finding a replacement. It's just a matter of finding something that will have to do for now.
I'm hardly an expert on MMOs, so I can't say if there's something else out there in another genre which may suffice. Maybe The Secret World or free-to-play Star Wars: TOR. But that's a different matter entirely.
-- Acyl
- Terrenceknight - 11-02-2012
Well given my lack of intrest in pretty much anything else out there at the moment I'm stuck with CO untill something else comes up that may catch my fancy so I'll be around there and doing what I can to make sure our people are looked after. Mainly Modifications and Legacy Devices and assist with missions as needed/wanted.
Is it going to be a suitable replacement for CoH for me? Nah. Will it make do until something else comes up? It will have to so I'll be making the best of it.
- ECSNorway - 11-05-2012
Has anyone gotten CO to work on a mac yet?
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.
- mephron - 11-09-2012
...on my bootcamped Windows drive. Attempts in Parallels made horrible things happen, and I had to do a full reinstall of Parallels.
(what? I'm a longtime Champions tabletop player, I playtested two of the released Champions 6 adventures - Foxbat for President and King Of the Mountain - and I wanted to see what the fuss was about. I was deeply nonimpressed.)Brazil has decided you're cute.
- Acyl - 11-12-2012
I suspect Champions is going to...kind of inherently be extremely disappointing to anyone that liked the tabletop material first, before the MMO came around. Because it really doesn't make use of all that lore. There's bits and pieces, hints and fragments, but things aren't really elaborated upon.
That said, for me it was the other way around. I never played Champions back in the day; when I was a kid and in high school, I pretty much only played BattleTech and MechWarrior. After messing around with Champions Online, I picked up some of the tabletop sourcebooks, because the game had me wondering about a few things. And I think that was money well spent.
Of course, now I look at the MMO and think - damn, so much wasted potential.
-- Acyl
- Dragonflight - 11-13-2012
Never got into the mechanics of the game much. I know from other friends that it's at its best with street-level supers, and martial arts types. It apparently isn't as good at say, Golden Age superheroes or anything in that venue.
I also recall being told that the point system breaks down if you're not careful. One person built a common housefly and it apparently cost something like 500+ points, because of all the levels of size reduction it had to have.
Edit: I also recall being told once of a guy who built a character using only default points, who had a power which was guaranteed to destroy the whole planet. He gimped and psych-lim'ed himself with as many penalties as he could fit on the character, but by the time he was finished, he had a power he could use once, which would end all life on Earth.
---
Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do.
- Logan Darklighter - 11-13-2012
DRAG0NFLIGHT Wrote:Never got into the mechanics of the game much. I know from other friends that it's at its best with street-level supers, and martial arts types. It apparently isn't as good at say, Golden Age superheroes or anything in that venue.The pen and paper books differentiate between the game mechanics - called the Hero system - and the actual world background. The genre book for the Hero System supers world is called Champions.
The Hero System game mechanics very much are capable of doing justice any power level you want to play. From street level heroes to golden and silver age powerhouses all the way up to galactic scale superheroics (Like Legion of Superheroes - which is kinda both silver age and galactic at the same time.) It's all in how high a point total the game master allows and the way the points are spent for characteristics, powers and skills. I've both played and GMed Champions. The character generation system is complex. But the actual game mechanics are pretty simple.
Quote:I also recall being told that the point system breaks down if you're not careful. One person built a common housefly and it apparently cost something like 500+ points, because of all the levels of size reduction it had to have.The former I've not heard of. But there are probably more efficient ways of allocating the points for the shrinking. One of the things that the Hero System beastiary has done in regards to insects is to build swarms of them as a single diffuse "character" instead of trying to stat out the individual bugs.
Edit: I also recall being told once of a guy who built a character using only default points, who had a power which was guaranteed to destroy the whole planet. He gimped and psych-lim'ed himself with as many penalties as he could fit on the character, but by the time he was finished, he had a power he could use once, which would end all life on Earth.
As for your second example - this was a specific case of a character that COULD be built. It was actually used in the game book as an example for the writers of the Hero System to say to GMs - DO NOT ALLOW THIS!! ^_^
- Logan Darklighter - 11-27-2012
Oh - I should mention also that our friends over in SD Paragon are looking into playing versions of their characters from City of Heroes in Mutants and Masterminds, and holding sessions via AIM, Skype and this set of tools here.
I've got an account on AIM now. Don't use it much though. I'm mostly available on Steam under the current handle of Atlantea.
- ECSNorway - 11-28-2012
Logan Darklighter Wrote:Oh - I should mention also that our friends over in SD Paragon are looking into playing versions of their characters from City of Heroes in Mutants and Masterminds, and holding sessions via AIM, Skype and this set of tools here.M&M is a decent game. It's essentially a fusion of the better parts of Champions and D20. I'd play this if someone fun (Bob? Fox?) wanted to GM.
I've got an account on AIM now. Don't use it much though. I'm mostly available on Steam under the current handle of Atlantea.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.
- Bob Schroeck - 11-28-2012
ECSNorway Wrote:Oh, please don't look at me. My D&D game has been in hiatus long enough that my players are regularly poking me about it, and Warriors' World is in hibernation at the moment, both because I don't have (and haven't had, for too long) the brainshare available to do them justice.Logan Darklighter Wrote:Oh - I should mention also that our friends over in SD Paragon are looking into playing versions of their characters from City of Heroes in Mutants and Masterminds, and holding sessions via AIM, Skype and this set of tools here.M&M is a decent game. It's essentially a fusion of the better parts of Champions and D20. I'd play this if someone fun (Bob? Fox?) wanted to GM.
I've got an account on AIM now. Don't use it much though. I'm mostly available on Steam under the current handle of Atlantea.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- ArachnosX - 12-01-2012
Mutants and Masterminds is one of the best systems, and if anybody wants some help with it, I'd be happy to, but I'm surely not GMing a City of Heroes game.
As for Champions Online, I've got an account, I may come back to it if you guys are all flocking to it.
- Logan Darklighter - 12-01-2012
We'd love to have you, X. You might even be able to recreate some variant of one of your fav costumes.
There's a topic pinned to the top of the forum where I pulled together several porportion templates that should make the CO builder approximate COH style body builds better than the default does. Also explains several things about the start of the game and what to expect. Also there's a couple of other threads here and there showing off screenshots of characters translated over.
(We really need a consolidated thread for that. I mentioned it on the channel, but I'll repeat it here to remind myself that I need to do that.)
- Ebony - 12-03-2012
I've got a Champions Account too, and put Heart of Artemis up there last night. I'm still poking at it to get her up back to her old style.
Ebony the Black Dragon
http://ebony14.livejournal.com
"Good night, and may the Good Lord take a Viking to you."
- ArachnosX - 12-04-2012
Soooo the patcher refuses to connect to my internet. That's not a good sign.
- Ransan - 12-04-2012
Logan Darklighter Wrote:Oh - I should mention also that our friends over in SD Paragon are looking into playing versions of their characters from City of Heroes in Mutants and Masterminds, and holding sessions via AIM, Skype and this set of tools here.Interesting that you should mention that. Baseload was going to run an M&M game on "off" saturdays (our gaming group is missing 2-3 people every other week), and I had rolled Purrfect Detective for it. Her character sheet is still sitting on my hard drive (Baseload had to cancel the game due to overload). Jack (Patriot) was originally from Palladium's "Heroes Unlimited", was converted/redone in "Silver Age Sentinels" (the super hero table top RPG by the people that made B.E.S.M.), and then converted AGAIN to "Mutants & Masterminds" (and technically again to 3rd Edition, though we decided not to use him.). It was only in the M&M era that he was added to CoH (and now CO).
- Dragonflight - 12-04-2012
Interesting gaming tech. I'd need to find a webcam to use it, though.
My rig is old enough that it doesn't come standard with anything, and my finances are pinched, so I don't know where I could find funds for it.---
Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do.
- Baseload - 12-04-2012
Ransan Wrote:Let's not forget ZK, Ran. ZK originally had made Zilem Kain as a hero in Heroes Unlimited and I beleive he got ported around to CoH, M&M, SAS, and eventually CO.Logan Darklighter Wrote:Oh - I should mention also that our friends over in SD Paragon are looking into playing versions of their characters from City of Heroes in Mutants and Masterminds, and holding sessions via AIM, Skype and this set of tools here.Interesting that you should mention that. Baseload was going to run an M&M game on "off" saturdays (our gaming group is missing 2-3 people every other week), and I had rolled Purrfect Detective for it. Her character sheet is still sitting on my hard drive (Baseload had to cancel the game due to overload). Jack (Patriot) was originally from Palladium's "Heroes Unlimited", was converted/redone in "Silver Age Sentinels" (the super hero table top RPG by the people that made B.E.S.M.), and then converted AGAIN to "Mutants & Masterminds" (and technically again to 3rd Edition, though we decided not to use him.). It was only in the M&M era that he was added to CoH (and now CO).