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Deconstructing Veritechs - Black Aeronaut - 02-01-2014
Okay, a little bit ago I got into it with some guys over on SB's Creative Writing IRC Channel about skills picked up as a veritech pilot in Macros/Robotech.
The thing is that I felt that small squad tactics and asymmetrical warfare would be standard fare for the command-track veritech pilots.
My argument: The UN realized as soon as they began investigating the ship that was eventually dubbed 'Macros' that the original owners were somewhere in the vicinity of 50 feet tall, give or take. Therefore, to combat them, they built veritech fighters specifically for that purpose. This means geeting down into the trenches and duking it out, hand-to-hand if needs be (which we actually do see in post-rain-of-death Macros/Robotech).
Also, there is the fact that Khyron led very effective guerrilla-style raids on RDF interests that could only be fought off with a combination of veritechs (usually in battloid form once they arrived on scene), allied Zentreadi, and a not-small-amount of trickery.
The SpaceBattlers, on the other hand, insist that they are jet fighters, full stop, and the whole transforming robot thing is just there for the cool factor. (Agreed on the cool factor, but irrelevant for deconstruction purposes.) (EDIT: Oh yeah, and they also said that veritechs are not very nimble at all in Battloid. Really?)
Do the SpaceBattlers have the right of this? I could really use the input.
- Dartz - 02-01-2014
That's a reasonable enough argument....
It actually makes a lot of sense considering the complexity involved in building and maintaining a variable fighter. You think the F-35 or 22 are hangar-queen maintenance monsters, just include all those load bearing joints and moving parts, not to mention the transformation mechanisms. Maintenance and repair on those must be hideous, so there has to be a valid technical reason for adding that feature (Beyond selling toys), and yours is one of the better ones I've heard...
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?
- Matrix Dragon - 02-01-2014
Hell, Rick actually boarded one or two Zentraedi ships during the series, and let's not forget the time Max managed to infiltrate one through fantastic piloting and a stolen uniform (Although I'm pretty sure that counts as Not Part Of The Original Design Goal
). There were times Veritechs got up close and personal with the Zentraedi as well.Mind you, if SpaceBattles is expressing their opinion on something in a debate, especially anything related to sci-fi, technology in sci-fi, and use of technology in sci-fi, I tend to take the opposite side automatically, after making the mistake of looking at some of their debates.
- Necratoid - 02-01-2014
The SB thought line of thought fails to make any sense to me what-so-ever.
The reason being that jet fighters are meant to strike really fast from outside visual range. The idea of only using jet fighter against 50 foot tall enemy shock troops or bridge bunnies is as stupid as the Hollywood idea of jet fighter threading the needle through office buildings at super sonic speeds. That is the job of attack helicopters and maybe VTOL fighters. Jet fighters are meant to go stupid fast and be long gone before the munitions hit. that is the entire point of going that fast, evasion. not wire guided missiles are meant for shooting from dozens of miles away not half a block. Think of the SR-71 Blackbird... by the time it showed up on radar it was literally two countries out of your airspace.
When confronted with the idea of how to fight a race of 50 foot tall invaders you have to look at what weapons we had and of what use they were. infantry (mechanized or not) is only there to launch rockets and TOWs and such. even 50 caliber rounds are kind of useless. So all thos weapons and troops are desperation attacks. Not at all ideal. This leaves you with main battle tanks, helicopters, and bombarding with jets and boats. Bombarding means no chance to hold ground and your reducing all combat to scorched earth tactics. As we are only talking about foot soldiers. Never mind their siege and mechanized forces. They figured said 50 foot tall men would be armored as well.
So they where confronted with the idea of only scorched earth tactics and/or thousands of tanks everywhere as functional military tactics. So they had to look at what to do with the new tech they had. Well 50 foot troops (as the weakest unit type) mean you need speed enough to get to the fights and main battle tanks are fairly slow compared to things with a stride that large. Helicopters are useful, but bunny hopping around the battlefield only works with enough disposable cover... which would mean more scorched earth tactics.
So they had to design of the new weapon system one that needed several design specifications:
1: Can hold ground against 50 foot ground troops. This requires:
A) The weapon system can carry weapons that can damage armor a foot or more thick
B The weapon can function in urban environments and leave them as intact as possible.
C) Mobility enough to actually ignore roads and keep up with the running speed of said 50 foot ground troops... and any vehicles they can use.
D) The 50 foot ground troops come from space so they must have orbital or air mobile fire support if not orbital bombardment.
This is the basic design specification for fighting the infantry. (feel free to add to the list)
---
Enter the vertitech, it has plane mode for mobility between sites and ups the effective deployment range. It has battliod mode for holding ground and is mobile enough to avoid being skeet practice like a helicopter. Geriwalker was more for getting the plane pilots to a humanoid form and making it a VTOL made it useful. I'd say that geriwaler makes it urban combat capable and battliod made its way in as a logical extension. Having hot swappable munitions and ability to deflect a knife or hammer adds to unit survivability. Also carrier capacity was already existing tech.
The major issue with the system are them being hanger queens (though imagine a helicopter based versions maintenance workload... ignoring its useless in space) and requiring at least three major skill sets to operate... and of course training your fly boys in infantry tactics.
Also Its not at all unreasonable to think the Macross had some broken battlepods on it when it crashed. That influenced design decisions. Also, they barely got this tech working before the Earth got attacked. Making 40 specialized weapon systems would have made a darker shorter series. The 'jets for the win' theory is extinction educingly stupid.
To recap using bombarding units for urban combat mean your going to run out of urban environments This means jets are only good for attack units. Veritechs are only a third as stupid as deploying a race of 50 foot , organic soldiers... and only a 200th as stupid as making them fail at basic maintenance forever.
- Acyl - 02-01-2014
Quote:Necratoid wrote:The infantry tactics part isn't much of a stretch. In most air forces, pilots start off as infantry anyway - that's essentially what Basic Military Training is. Granted, 2-3 months of rifle drill, formations and squad tactics isn't going to make you the equal of a commando or whatever. But it does mean even an average pilot would already have some idea of what to do, and some basis for further training to build on.
The major issue with the system are them being hanger queens (though imagine a helicopter based versions maintenance workload... ignoring its useless in space) and requiring at least three major skill sets to operate... and of course training your fly boys in infantry tactics.
-- Acyl
- Necratoid - 02-01-2014
Part of the problem is that your demanding a fighter pilot go be fancy infantry part time. This is going to effect their egos. Remember, I'm talking about before there s an established Vertitech jock mind set. This is like taking a sitting US Senator (one of only one hundred in the world!) and telling them the have to go hold a city counsilor position in a town of ten thousand. Flyboys and Jarheads are largely polar opposites in internal prestige levels. Its like telling a master surgen he is on bedpan duty today. Its like telling a 18 level mage with prestige classes (D&D) that he must go take levels in the NPC warrior class... not even fighter, warrior.
Ignoring egos, it is a matter of combining two character builds that previously took polar opposite character builds. Squishy Wizard and dumb meat shield are now the same unit type. Your flying artillery has to learn to fight close enough to get punched in the face. Your Dumb meat shield has to figure out 3-D combat and how to constantly read twitch display to fight things completely out of range of the mark one eyeball.
Vertitechs are a Min Maxers nightmare fuel... you can't even dump stat charisma or you'll never be able to convince yourself to train in something so insane. Your throw away character flaws can disqualify you from being a vertitech pilot.
- classicdrogn - 02-01-2014
Yeah, this is one where the SB'ers are full of expended fuel rods - just the fact that the VFs are almost always shown going G for city battles to make use of the VTOL/hover and low-speed flight blows their "jet fighter full stop" arguments out of the water, and the way Max, Basara, and Alto go nuts in hand to hand a few times - or how Roy detaches and handles Hikaru's cockpit section after getting his trainer wrecked during the first ep, or how Minmei (in DYRL) and Ranka get caught out of the air and carried around without harm, gives the "clunky awkward Battroids" the lie as well. I think they're too hung up on the BT interpretations.
Fighting in space, sure, they spend most of their time in F - space is big! - but any time they're not in space or high atmo B and G are the modes of choice, and there's uses for both (increased trust vectoring ability for maneuverability and off-axis shooting, mainly) in the open spaces as well.
The games are a whole separate question, but I LIVE In G in the Artdink games, only going B to melee and F to cross the map quickly or dodge with the surge of speed.
As for min/maxing... well, in D&D stat terms, you don't need Strength, Wisdom, or Charisma really - though the latter is a good idea, since you'll be the CO to your ground crew at least even if you're not an element or flight leader, and CON only matters for Fortitude saves against G-forces. In my vastly preferred Mekton system, you can use Cool based leadership rather than Empathy though neither impact piloting ability directly, Body is the one to worry about G-forces, and the pilot's Movement Allowance is basically irrelevant in the cockpit. Attractiveness is, as ever, the least mechanically and most socially valuable. Either system needs Intelligence (and Education in Mekton) for the skill points and Dexterity/Reflexes as the base skill for piloting and mecha weapons, and Technical Ability is only if your character will be doing his own jury rigging and repairs. Really no different from any other vehicle pilot in terms of min-maxing objectives and cuttable corners - until you get to skills, where you flat out need more of them, but that's why INT (and EDU in Mekton) are also critical stats.
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows
- Black Aeronaut - 02-02-2014
Quote:ClassicDrogn wrote:Oh god, I should have realized that sooner.
I think they're too hung up on the BT interpretations.
Okay, so all that said...
What all skillsets do you guys think one would acquire as a successful veritech pilot?
So far, I've come up with:
- Aerospace
Fighterpilot
- Close-Quarters Combat
- Hand-to-Hand Combat
- Sniper
- Field
Command- 3D
Tactics
- Small
Squad Tactics
- Guerrilla Warfare
- 3D
- Aerospace
- Black Aeronaut - 02-02-2014
Quote:Dartz wrote:Actually, I'm fairly sure that Robotechnology is pretty low maintenance. Witness the Zentreadi Battlepod - functions perfectly well for decades with absolutely no maintenance. Sure, it's a flyweight, and when they actually do come upon a worthy adversary they burn like kindling... but the point is they do function without maintenance.
You think the F-35 or 22 are hangar-queen maintenance monsters, just include all those load bearing joints and moving parts, not to mention the transformation mechanisms. Maintenance and repair on those must be hideous, so there has to be a valid technical reason for adding that feature (Beyond selling toys), and yours is one of the better ones I've heard...
So, I suspect that since they use Robotechnology fairly exclusively in the veritech fighters that they are surprisingly low-maintenance - to the point where the only time they have to do anything is to actually make repairs or upgrade the equipment. (This would also help explain why they always had a seemingly endless supply of veritechs - it wasn't very hard to salvage the wrecked ones.)
- classicdrogn - 02-02-2014
Wait, are you using Macross or Robotech? For Macross, the only VFs that normal physcal combat would have anything to do with would be the YF-22, VF-27, and the ones that use EXGear - they have direct brain control, though the EXGear toned it down to avoid the problems Guld had with the machine acting on impulses he had no conscious intention of actually carrying out. Roboblecch of course supposedly has the "thinking caps" and mystical mumbo jumbo... but in Macross at least, variable fighters are operated by moving joysticks and pedals, which, even if there is some degree of armature style mimicking of arm movements, doesn't really translate to fighting outside the cockpit. On the other hand, we do see the VF-0 pilots specifically having a training session in unarmed combat long before that time frame, so that might be my own interpretations showing through.
What distinguishes "close quarters combat" from hand to hand anyway? Being armed with knives/knuckledusters/etc.? The rest of your list I'd agree with, and also throw in the use of sensor and communications systems, orbital mechanics, terrestrial and space-based navigation, and how to move and fight while remaining in control of your motion in zero-g. I would expect most of them to have a healthy interest in life support systems and maintenance as well, as if the cockpit air scrubber craps out while they're way the hell out on a patrol somewhere, they can either fix it or hold their breath until they make it back to a ship - this in particular always irritated me about the hard separation between the pilot and bio-maintenance techs in Palladium's rendition of the setting for games. It's hardly Palladium's greatest sin, however.
Depending on time frame, the basics of superdimension theory and fold navigation would also apply, for pilots trained on VFs that can use Fold Boosters or have their own built in.
As for mechanical maintenance... even in proper Macross where transforming mecha are a human innovation, they still had the example of Protoculture technology in the ASS-1's systems plus whatever Zentready units that were still aboard, and that stuff was seriously built to last - forget decades, it's hundreds of thousands of years since the Protoculture wiped itself out against the Protodeviln, and not all, but enough that billion-strong fleets of Zentreadi ships are a thing, of their automated factory satellites are still functional, as was a Protoculture AI that the Macross 7 fleet found, up until Protodeviln-controlled Varuta forces destroyed it.
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows
- ordnance11 - 02-02-2014
Quote:blackaeronaut wrote:Your ideal Robotech pilot would have to combine the skills of an aerospace fighter pilot with a commando. That means stealth skills (i.e. blending in or not not being seen), demolition skills, being able to operate in hostile environments (either on airless rocks or planets with possibly critters who would not mind snacking on humans), code breaker skills (Can he read Zentradi?) Can he make field repairs/modifications like Murdoch? I mean you need something like Roy Fokker/Murdoch/Solid Snake to get your ideal. Oh yeah. Be very lucky. Most important.Quote:ClassicDrogn wrote:Oh god, I should have realized that sooner.
I think they're too hung up on the BT interpretations.
Okay, so all that said...
What all skillsets do you guys think one would acquire as a successful veritech pilot?
So far, I've come up with:
Got any others?
- Aerospace
Fighterpilot
- Close-Quarters Combat
- Hand-to-Hand Combat
- Sniper
- Field
Command
- 3D
Tactics
- Small
Squad Tactics
- Guerrilla Warfare
But up to what level of command do you want him go up to? Wing/Group cmd? Because being able to plan campaigns far from any sort of resupply is going to crucial once you go up to that level..
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
- khagler - 02-02-2014
As an additional data point, consider that the VF-11's gun pod is equipped with a bayonet--Isamu uses it at the very beginning of Macross Plus. There's no way that could be seen as a pure jet fighter weapon.
- Thesilentjackofalltrade - 02-02-2014
Robotech Battle cry makes it quite clear that the reason why the Veritechs were made was to fight the Aliens on equal terms.
Equal terms would be rising to there level.
_____________
Veni, vidi, vici. [I came, I saw, I conquered
Quote from Julius Caesar
- Black Aeronaut - 02-02-2014
Quote:ClassicDrogn wrote:I'm not sure yet, but at this point I'm leaning more towards Macros. Not quite as interesting in some aspects, but a whole lot less grim.
Wait, are you using Macross or Robotech? For Macross, the only VFs that normal physcal combat would have anything to do with would be the YF-22, VF-27, and the ones that use EXGear - they have direct brain control, though the EXGear toned it down to avoid the problems Guld had with the machine acting on impulses he had no conscious intention of actually carrying out. Roboblecch of course supposedly has the "thinking caps" and mystical mumbo jumbo... but in Macross at least, variable fighters are operated by moving joysticks and pedals, which, even if there is some degree of armature style mimicking of arm movements, doesn't really translate to fighting outside the cockpit. On the other hand, we do see the VF-0 pilots specifically having a training session in unarmed combat long before that time frame, so that might be my own interpretations showing through.
As for the control schemes... I know what you're saying, believe me, and I'm trying to find some sort of work around. Presently, I'm going with having highly sophisticated and nuanced waldo controls combined with an equally sophisticated and nuanced locomotion computer. We've seen the progress they've recently been having with IRL projects like Big Dog, so I don't think it's too farfetched, especially when you're bringing alien overtechnology to the table.
Quote:ClassicDrogn wrote:Close Quarters implies you have room for melee weapons - even if that means using your long-arms as a club. Hand-to-Hand is just that - you're so damn close that there's room for nothing else. Really, in most scenarios if you go from CQC to HTH on the battlefield, you're screwed unless you've been specially trained for it.
What distinguishes "close quarters combat" from hand to hand
anyway? Being armed with knives/knuckledusters/etc.?
Quote:ClassicDrogn wrote:Thanks. I'll go ahead and add those to the list as well.
The rest of your
list I'd agree with, and also throw in the use of sensor and
communications systems, orbital mechanics, terrestrial and space-based
navigation, and how to move and fight while remaining in control of your
motion in zero-g. I would expect most of them to have a healthy
interest in life support systems and maintenance as well, as if the
cockpit air scrubber craps out while they're way the hell out on a
patrol somewhere, they can either fix it or hold their breath until they
make it back to a ship - this in particular always irritated me about
the hard separation between the pilot and bio-maintenance techs in
Palladium's rendition of the setting for games. It's hardly Palladium's
greatest sin, however.
Quote:ClassicDrogn wrote:Nah, this will be early Macross... events leading up to and the decade after Rain of Death. So fold boosters and other similarly compact fold drives will be purely theoretical at this point.
Depending on time frame, the basics of superdimension theory and fold
navigation would also apply, for pilots trained on VFs that can use Fold
Boosters or have their own built in.
Quote:ClassicDrogn wrote:Oh, I know. Again, bear in mind this is just early Macross... when humans are still perfecting their grasp of Robotechnology. I would expect that the VF-1 Valkyries would still need a bit of TLC outside repairs now and then... but I would still think it would be nothing a pilot stranded and on their own won't have to worry about for years if needs be.
As for mechanical maintenance... even in proper Macross where
transforming mecha are a human innovation, they still had the example of
Protoculture technology in the ASS-1's systems plus whatever Zentready
units that were still aboard, and that stuff was seriously built to last
- forget decades, it's hundreds of thousands of years since the
Protoculture wiped itself out against the Protodeviln, and not all, but
enough that billion-strong fleets of Zentreadi ships are a thing, of
their automated factory satellites are still functional, as was a
Protoculture AI that the Macross 7 fleet found, up until
Protodeviln-controlled Varuta forces destroyed it.
Quote:YourHonestly, I wasn't really thinking about it - really, all I was thinking was 'Veteran, lots of experience in handling his machine in a fight'. That said, this would indeed be the skill set of an RDF-equivalent to a special forces like Navy SEALs and Army Rangers.
ideal Robotech pilot would have to combine the skills of an aerospace
fighter pilot with a commando. That means stealth skills (i.e. blending
in or not not being seen), demolition skills, being able to operate in
hostile environments (either on airless rocks or planets with possibly
critters who would not mind snacking on humans), code breaker skills
(Can he read Zentradi?) Can he make field repairs/modifications like
Murdoch? I mean you need something like Roy Fokker/Murdoch/Solid Snake
to get your ideal. Oh yeah. Be very lucky. Most important.
Quote:ordnance11 wrote:Really, I was thinking he'd go no higher than command over a single squadron. That would be what, an O-4 or an O-5?
But up
to what level of command do you want him go up to? Wing/Group cmd?
Because being able to plan campaigns far from any sort of resupply is
going to crucial once you go up to that level.
- Rod.H - 02-02-2014
And don't the Frontier era VF's have combat knives and a shield/buckler too? I swear I've built a knife as part of the VF-25 models I've done, and the shield's the tail deck. I suppose the EXgear helps in their use, and we have seen the SMS pilots do some 3C.
Also the editors at Wikipedia have declared all the subpages for VFs verboten and have begun deleting them all, and gee what's the first link listed on google for most of them, the Wikipedia page.
- Bluemage - 02-02-2014
...okay, there's so much here that I'm going to go back to the original questions, and go from there.
How are veritechs used? They fill the roles of infantry, aerospace fighters, bombers, aerial cav (like a lot of attack choppers do), marines... pretty much every role you can fit a VF-1 into, they can do. What are they best at, though?
Well, they're the best aerial units the RDF has- more fighters and aerial cav than bombers, though. They're too lightly armored to be really good ground units, unlike many of the Destroids. Veritechs really excel more at hit-and-run, rapid response, and light cavalry roles on the ground- basically anything that lets them use their speed and maneuverability to survive.
Given that, I would say that veritechs are fighters first, land support second, and full land units as a distant third. They can do all three, and do them well (being built for versatility), but being groundbound isn't their best use.
Quote:Oh yeah, and they also said that veritechs are not very nimble at all in Battloid. Really?Pfft-no. Battroids are mobile as it gets- you see them practically dancing around in space all the time. If you need a way to justify that, look at the Zaku, from Gundam. It was stated to be more agile than the fighters the Federation used because of AMBAC, the ability to move limbs to reorient the suit around its center of mass.
The VF-1 could do the same... plus its main thrusters aren't mounted to its back. They're on its legs, meaning that it can swing its primary thrust around as it pleases.
As far as Necratoid's 'pilot ego' argument goes, well, it doesn't. A VT pilot isn't a fighter jock who occasionally has to be a jarhead- they're a fighter jock who can take their fighter down to the ground and outdo the jarheads at their own game with it. They're a master surgeon who can operate so well, that they can clean bedpans with their scalpel. They're an 18th-level mage that's so munchkin'd that their magic lets them be better fighters than the fighters.
Now, if the average VT pilot was required to do ground combat outside of their mecha, you'd have one heck of a point. Since they aren't (unless their mecha is destroyed, which puts them in the same position as pure fighter pilots who get shot down), I'd say it isn't an issue on an organizational issue. They probably wash some guys out for that mentality, but not that many of them.
Agreed on the maintenance- robotech materials science makes it a lot less of an issue. A pure fighter built with that tech would probably last for decades without servicing- VFs just need the same sort of attention our current planes do.
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.
I've been writing a bit.
- VladimirTherin - 02-02-2014
It would make more sense if they had planned on the veritechs being hybrid support/macro-infantry and intended to develop some kind of dedicated space superiority fighter (or capital missile) if they had the time.
I suspect they intended to be doing guerrilla style combat from the start. I imagine there was very little faith in being able to keep them off-planet when they had exactly one ship that had a chance against the enemy.
Hilariously, thats a realistic strategy that would have entirely failed against the Zentraedi, as they were entirely willing to slag the planet entirely.
A veritech is probably never going to be an optimum fighter design, because its carrying around a whole bunch of mass that is just dead weight when its trying to be a fighter.
An "optimal space fighter" in setting would probably be something like half the size of a veritech, despite the same size power plant and *multiple* times more weapon/ewar capacity.
- drakensis - 02-02-2014
The Veritech/Variable Fighter, by my understanding fights in three general environments: Space, Atmosphere and Surface. For the most part they can move freely between these environments (excepting the VF-1 and other early models that couldn't reach orbit unassisted). Ton for ton and dollar for dollar, you'd expect it to be more efficient to build specialised units for each (and to some extent this probably happens, thus the humble Destroid for surface battle).
However, there are generally quite substantial limits to how large the deployed forces could be early on, pre-Space War One there were a limited number of major combatants in space so hanger-space was limited. And from the start of the war on the SDF-1 and post-Rain of Death military had significant manpower limits so having one-man units that could handle any of these situations fit the needs much better than a wider range of capability. This also established the VF pilots as the elite group who could go anywhere and do anything. It'd be interesting to see how this might have developed if Space War One had involved more conventional forces from Earth rather than such units being largely sidelined until they were bombarded into oblivion.
In terms of capability, the VFs seem to handle the roles very well. They can carry large missile loads for high speed, long range engagements in space and atmosphere; they can also handle space boarding actions and urban combat, which also come up quite a lot. And they do so just as well as dedicated fighters/ground units, so there's no real demand to substantially increase numbers of units limited to a single environment (although no doubt some exist). This is quite unlike Battletech were Land-Air-Mechs are significantly limited compared to more specialised units.
D for Drakensis
You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.
- classicdrogn - 02-02-2014
The "what happens if you get shot down?" question is why I really, really like the EXGear, even though the VF-25 is meh. Retrofit one of the more interesting designs with the attachment points instead of an E-seat and sticks, and you're just golden. They also make for a great training tool without giving your FNGs a full-size mecha's mass and thrust to break things with, and should be able to run simulations as well as operating in exoskeleton mode. Being a control interface is their primary design purpose, so any trade offs (like armor coverage as an exoskeleton vs. mass and flexibility) are made in its favor. It's entirely the wrong era to have anything like that, though, unfortunately, though Kawamori-sensei's concept sketches do show a heavier personal armor (about MADOX-1 size) that also had a flight mode and Macross The Ride introduced the Quaedluun Alma, with a pair of folding wings and a more streamlined missile backpack location, so it's not totally out of the question with an early butterfly. A literal butterfly flap that rolls the ship in the opposite direction during the crash so the one Alma aboard doesn't get tossed out a hull breach and burned up in the atmosphere could even do it...
If your protag is planet-bound during that time, my own preference would be for an SV-51 (or if not the spaceworthy upgrade, SV-52) as an Ontario Free Zone pilot or refugee from same after Bursting Point, but of course I have no idea what story you actually want to tell. (It's not as if the UNEG would share their hot new fighter with the holdouts who refuse to sign on, after all.)
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows
- Black Aeronaut - 02-02-2014
The Protagonist... in an interesting case.
Ganked out of his homeworld by a ROB, he winds up in Tenchi-verse and winds up impressing on Tsunami. (Washu has Tenchi, Tokimi has Zero, so Tsunami will be damned if she can't have one of her own.) Unfortunately, ROB comes to collect and he and Tsunami get into a metaphysical tug-of-war match... fortunately for our Protagonist, the ROB's 'rope' breaks... unfortunately for him, Tsunami's rope has an elastic quality to it, so when it snapped the poor schmuck wound up getting whipped clear across the multiverse and got stuck where he landed... so, now he has to wait for Tsunami to reel him in, but the process takes a while... how long depends on how firmly he's stuck, you see, and when the tension builds up enough to unstuck him... *FWING!* away he goes and gets stuck again.
Protagonist is dangerously genre savvy. Fortunately, Washu is as well. She needed very little convincing to help him with some contingency plans, like a dimensional pocket big enough to store very large items and still have enough room for comfortable living space. (To save on contruction costs, it actually does become his room at the Masaki residence, with a door much like the one to Washu's lab located on the second floor between Tenchi's room and the Girls'.)
Macross will be the second universe after Tenchi-verse. I've still yet to work out what sort of butterflies he causes there, but earlier and less troubled development of the VF-4 Lightning III's is a possibility, I think. As well as an establishment of a 'Special Forces' among the veritech pilots.
- classicdrogn - 02-02-2014
I do love the Lightnings, I must admit. (Hence .sig) The summary sounds viable enough, for a serial multi-cross, but nothing extraordinary on its own - the execution is what will make it sink or swim, I think. That said, I at least am interested to see what you create, so be sure to post it up, or at least a link, when you get something half presentable assembled..
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"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows
- Black Aeronaut - 02-02-2014
Well, I do have about sixty pages worth written... whether I'll keep it all or not... Anyhow, I'll post the beginings in another thread here momentarily. No need to derail this one any further. :p
- Black Aeronaut - 02-02-2014
Oooh! This is useful!
http://macross2.net/m3/thrusttoweight/t ... ochart.jpg
- Necratoid - 02-02-2014
I'm actually pretty amused that everyone here basically agrees with me about my posted ideas of the whys of the vertitechs... the only sticking point is that of my 'pilot ego' comments... which have to do with starting off the pilot training programs. Not long after the specific training programs for V-tech units is finalized. Its the first one where your going from pure jet fighter jock to V-tech hybrids. By the '80s fighters went so fast that bullets firing weapons and not guided missiles were basically considered completely useless wastes of tonnage for fighter planes. You simply couldn't get in position to use them at engagement speeds. Traditional dog fighting did off after Vietnam. It went from shoot them with bullets and dumb fire explosives to missiles and counter measures (flares).
So the Jet fighter pilot's dumbed down skill set goes from: 1) 'Go faster' 2) 'Line up for missile lock', 3) 'Press fire button', 4) 'Press Counter measures button as a quick time event' to this mad cap insane thing where you opponent turn into a humanoid for and rabbit punch your cockpit after pulling a complete 180 turn literally 2 seconds ago. Then fly ( as a jet) 90 degrees vertically and turn back into a robot and shoot down your plane with bullet 5 seconds after that.
Ignoring that pulling 180s in a dogfight went from a few miles to a few dozen feet and that they can take off in any direct at all at that point... you have the resulting missile tech upgrade. Instead of single or double missiles fired, you fire off all the missiles in all the directions. Okay a few dozen missiles, but the sheer targeting computer upgrades it would take track those spontaneously occurring swarms and track them all. This is like making a chaff counter measure attack like explosive bees.
So no, wisdom is not at all a dump stat... you basically need a sixth sense not to die. Jet pilots are screwed if they can't adapt to spontaneous kung fu brawls random happening in their dog fights. Your 18th level munchkin wizard will quickly find out everyone now has greater missile swarms (7th level spell) and every missile is highly explosive... and they hit omnidirectionally. Every class is equally confused on piloting these things... except bards as they are can be karaoke ninjas and make elder gods explode... another reason wisdom is a poor dump stat., sanity damage is a thing in universe.
In short, jet pilots and jarheads are equally out of their elements... jarhead don't even exist soon after and jet fighter pilots are a basic job skill. Everyone is a random grunt or an MP. The military paradigm has been shifted completely sideways.
- classicdrogn - 02-02-2014
blackaeronaut Wrote:Oooh! This is useful!It is, but if I remember the forum discussions rightly that doesn't take into account the boosters in the VF-4's shoulder pods or along the back of the wing/shoulder blades, only the actual turbines in the legs. Good luck finding ANY info about the trailing edge boosters, but I think I've seen thrust ratings for the shoulder pods somewhere, sometime. The most telling part of that, is that Hikaru flew his VF-4G straight into space beside the Megaroad as it launched. I'm not sure about the VF-11B being capable of that, at least not without the strap on SRBs Dyson used with it while acting as chase plane for the YF-21, though the VF-17 probably could, and maybe the VF-14 since we see FZ-109s doing it. Fuel consumption probably goes up SHARPLY with those extra engines though.
http://macross2.net/m3/thrusttoweight/t ... ochart.jpg
At a guess, and from the VF-4's concept as "a Valkyrie that doesn't need FAST packs to get high performance" you could probably steal the thrust ratings form the VF-1 FAST pods for the shoulders and the leg vernier cluster plus VF-1 backpack cluster for the TE/shoulders, and see where that gets you...
FYI, also, and I know Macekisms don't bother you the way they bother me, but "Valkyrie" is the canon Macross slang for "generic variable fighter" due to the VF-1 being so famous from SW1, as used in songs and character dialogue. "Veritech..." is not. Likewise with "overtechnology" versus "robotechnology." On that latter front, and in conjunction with the maintenance time discussion, it occured to me that most likely they use whatever effect the "SW/AG Energy Conversion Armor" runs on to protect moving parts from each other as well, so the physical structure of the machine is really just a medium for the structural integrity fields that are actually doing all the work, and if I understand the doubletalk right actually draw energy out of kinetic force acting against them to increase their own strength, though only to a degree and the delay in response time still lets some of the damage through - so 55mm cannon slugs leave pockmarks on the otherwise orinary aluminum skin rather than shredding it like tinfoil, and you need a swarm of missiles to have any significant effect rather than one hit being a kill.
One more edit, while useful resources are under discussion - CollectionDX has a review of the Yamato toy with ALL THE PICTURES. F, G, B, transformation, thrust vectoring, ALL OF THEM.
http://www.collectiondx.com/toy_review/ ... htning_iii
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows