Mike Godwin says Godwin's Law doesn't apply to Charlottesville

[robkelk]

Well, the unofficial addendum of "whoever compares someone to Nazis loses the argument" doesn't apply.

Chap behind Godwin's law suspends his own rule for Charlottesville fascists: 'By all means, compare them to Nazis'

So, no, don't let anyone shut down the discussion by citing Godwin's observation.

[Bob Schroeck]

You also have to consider that by Godwin's Law, anyone who labels themselves Nazis, as many of the lovely folks at Charlottesville did, have automatically lost any and all arguments.-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Jinx999]

You also have to consider that by Godwin's Law, anyone who labels themselves Nazis, as many of the lovely folks at Charlottesville did, have automatically lost any and all arguments.

They've certainly destroyed any argument FOR keeping the statue.

[Matrix Dragon]

The extension of Godwin's Law is generally too simplified anyway.

[Jinx999]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40943425

And Trump has decided he doesn't like being President, or something.

Because he won't be able to get a bill honoring George Washington through after this.

[Matrix Dragon]

He couldn't pass a bill anyway.

Look at him bend over backwards to not blame Nazis. It's just plain bizarre to see.

[robkelk]

All the more reason to keep the discussion going. One is entitled to one's own opinions, but one has to use the same facts as everyone else. Keep stating the actual facts.--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Dartz]

Can yeh not just trump up some charges to arrest them?

You can trump up charges to arrest anyone else.... for being poor, black, poor and black...... ________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[ordnance11]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40943425

And Trump has decided he doesn't like being President, or something.

Because he won't be able to get a bill honoring George Washington through after this.

There are part of the job he likes. The other parts (like uniting the country), he loathes.  66 percent currently disapproves of him. And this is at the 200 day mark (give or take a few days) . I have stated by experience and temperament, he was the worst qualified of the candidates to become POTUS. When he was elected, the hope (misguided, but you know what they say about hope) was:

1. He'd grow into the job.
2. His staff would be able to restrain him.
3. The political system will be able to restrain him.

#3 is proving true to a point. The question now is what is going to break first. Trump or our political system? And there is no guarantee that it can limit all the damage Trump's administration is inflicting on the country.
Well, the GOP decided to hitch their fortunes to Trump. Let's see what happens in 2018.__________________
Into terror!,  Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell

[robkelk]

There are part of the job he likes. The other parts (like uniting the country), he loathes.  ...

This is where the Congressional system of government falls down, IMHO.

In Canada, Trump would have made a decent-but-not-memorable Governor General (head of state) or a terrible Prime Minister (head of government). You folks effectively have both roles in the same office.--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[ordnance11]

There are part of the job he likes. The other parts (like uniting the country), he loathes.  ...

This is where the Congressional system of government falls down, IMHO.

In Canada, Trump would have made a decent-but-not-memorable Governor General (head of state) or a terrible Prime Minister (head of government). You folks effectively have both roles in the same office.

It had worked most of the time. Of course, never under estimate the stupidity of the american voters who voted for the chaos president. I half suspect they want this situation.__________________
Into terror!,  Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell

[Bob Schroeck]

So... No surprise, Trump is standing firm on the side of the racists and the neo-Nazis:

Trump mourns loss of ‘beautiful statues and monuments’ in wake of Charlottesville rally over Robert E. Lee statue-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[robkelk]

Not standing on the side of the Neo-Nazis, but I happen to think the statues shouldn't be removed, either. In my opinion, the applicable tropes here are Orwellian Retcon and Orwellian Editor.--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[DHBirr]

Not standing on the side of the Neo-Nazis, but I happen to think the statues shouldn't be removed, either. In my opinion, the applicable tropes here are Orwellian Retcon and Orwellian Editor.

There's a difference between "erasing the past" in Orwellian style, and removing from places of honor the statues of traitors who fought to tear our country apart.  The statues should be taken to a special museum as a "rogues' gallery," with the exhibit paying particular attention to the fact that they were first put up as a measure to intimidate the freed slaves and give the Rebel "cause" a semblance of legitimacy.  Such a display would be more akin in its purpose to the Holocaust Museum in D.C. — "Never again!"-----
Big Brother is watching you.  And damn, you are so bloody BORING.

[Matrix Dragon]

As I recall, moving the statues to somewhere more appropriate was actually the plan, at least in some of the cases. Which probably annoyed the Nazis more than just destroying them. I mean, putting them in a museum to educate on the evils of racism? The Horror!

On another note, some research online shows that General Lee, in the five years after the American Civil War and his death, actually opposed memorials to the Confederates, believing America should follow in other nations footsteps and bury the memory of its mistakes. Not sure I agree with his logic myself, but I live in a different age. Still, interesting to see he'd oppose his own statues. Also interesting to note that he opposed the use of the Confederate flag post-war.

[robkelk]

Not standing on the side of the Neo-Nazis, but I happen to think the statues shouldn't be removed, either. In my opinion, the applicable tropes here are Orwellian Retcon and Orwellian Editor.

There's a difference between "erasing the past" in Orwellian style, and removing from places of honor the statues of traitors who fought to tear our country apart.  The statues should be taken to a special museum as a "rogues' gallery," with the exhibit paying particular attention to the fact that they were first put up as a measure to intimidate the freed slaves and give the Rebel "cause" a semblance of legitimacy.  Such a display would be more akin in its purpose to the Holocaust Museum in D.C. — "Never again!"

That, I can live with.

Getting rid of the statues altogether is what rankles me.--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Bob Schroeck]

Of course, the nazis are retaliating in kind -- the Lincoln Memorial in Washington and a bust of Lincoln in Massachusetts were both defaced in the last few days.-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Black Aeronaut]

Speaking of Lincoln, in regards to the statues of Confederate 'Heroes'... I think it's important to remember that Lincoln wanted a clean reconciliation.  Keep in mind that while General Stonewall Jackson did indeed sign the surrender papers, he was also rendered full military honors immediately afterwards by the Union soldiers.

While we didn't really get that reconciliation, I feel it's still important to remember what Honest Abe had intended.  There likely would have been statues of General Jackson... only probably standing side by side with General Grant as though overseeing a rebuilding effort.

[DHBirr]

Speaking of Lincoln, in regards to the statues of Confederate 'Heroes'... I think it's important to remember that Lincoln wanted a clean reconciliation.  Keep in mind that while General Stonewall Jackson did indeed sign the surrender papers, he was also rendered full military honors immediately afterwards by the Union soldiers.

While we didn't really get that reconciliation, I feel it's still important to remember what Honest Abe had intended.  There likely would have been statues of General Jackson... only probably standing side by side with General Grant as though overseeing a rebuilding effort.

Ummm, Lee signed the surrender — Jackson had died almost two full years before.-----
Big Brother is watching you.  And damn, you are so bloody BORING.

[Black Aeronaut]

Whoops.  My bad.  

At any rate, the point still stands.  Lee was rendered military honors.  Lincoln wanted the reunification to be clean.  Things would have been different had he not been assassinated.

[DHBirr]

The attached article contains one sentence that managed to horrify and shock me.  Based on a recent Washington Post/ABC poll:

Some 90 percent of Democrats, 74 percent of Republicans and 83 percent of independents said it is unacceptable to hold neo-Nazi or white supremacist views.

So ... more than a quarter of the Republicans polled feel that Naziism, the ideology of a country that declared war on the United States, is acceptable?-----
Big Brother is watching you.  And damn, you are so bloody BORING.

[LynnInDenver]

That doesn't surprise me. Republicans have an image, at least, of showing that they think that racism (and related things) just don't exist at best, and at worst are constructs designed to create advantages.--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor