Puerto Rico without power again

[SilverFang01]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/18/us/puerto...index.html

Puerto Rico has suffered an island-wide power outage, Puerto Rico's power authority said Wednesday -- nearly seven months after Hurricane Maria destroyed much of the island's infrastructure and its electrical grid.
An excavator operated by a contractor apparently caused the outage, according to the authority, which estimated that power will be restored within 24 to 36 hours.

I just called my parents and they tell me that all gas stations are filled to capacity with people buying gas for generators. Also a restaurant suffered a fire due to one of their emergency generators giving up the ghost.

[hazard]

The world just keeps kicking Puerto Rico, doesn't it?

[Labster]

Well, what do you expect when a giant hurricane hits some third world country? Trump already sent them enough foreign aid, let Puerto Rico solve it's own problems without getting the United States involved.

[Rajvik]

Labster I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or straight with that post, that said, mane its the gods saying "get the fuck off the pot and either go it alone or become a state"

Just a thought

[SilverFang01]

I choose to read Labster's comment as sarcasm. Until proven otherwise

Rajvik - I don't believe statehood or independence would make that much of a difference. At least, the way the political culture is now. Though I believe that María will spark that change.

[Rajvik]

Silverfang01

The difference is that if they were a state we could deploy national guard and army corp of engineers. If they were independent and seeking foreign aid, we could send in army navy and USMC engineering companies/ battalions.

[Labster]

If Puerto Rico were a state or a nation, it could simply default on its current debt and declare bankruptcy. As a territory, it can't do that, but only because Congress is pulling the honey badger routine. Bonds are investments like any other, not a God-given right to make money. The way we're protecting investors over citizens is horrifying.

But, at the same time, I like Shadowrun as a setting, and every day reality seems to get a little more like it.

[hazard]

But that's the thing, Puerto Ricans aren't citizens (according to those who can make money off them), and as such have no rights at all.

Until they start living in the US, when they magically acquire voting rights.

The manner in which they and other territories are treated is an offense to good government practices by any standard. But unfortunately the only ones that can reasonably resolve it is the US Congress, and they aren't going to. It's too profitable.


I like Shadowrun too, it's an interesting world and entertaining to play in. But to live in it? To live the world of Shadowrun even without all the magic is a horror.

[robkelk]

Hang on - are you saying that people born, raised, and living in US territories are not US citizens? Does that mean that they're stateless?

I know people born, raised, and living in Canadian territories are Canadian citizens, with full legal rights including the right to representation in Parliament.

[hazard]

According to those who make money off them?

They might as well be. Because their votes don't matter on the national level (Puerto Ricans don't have Senators or Representatives, only observers in Congress that may advise but not vote, nor may they vote for the Presidential Elections) they've no real way to address national policy. And Congress?

Congress doesn't care because Puerto Rico is subject to national level taxes but cannot demand through their representatives directly nor indirectly that its needs be attended to.

And at that point? You've got taxation without representation and second class citizens who get screwed over because it can be done at no cost to Congress and yet bring in a good chunk of money.


This changes when a Puerto Rican (or any other citizen from any of the US territories) starts living in a state and registers as a voter, as then they can vote for a US Senator and a Representative, as well as the President, as they are citizens of the US. Note that Washington (well, the District of Columbia) likewise has no right to elect a Senator or Representative, but IIRC they can since the 1970's or 80's vote for Presidents. Which is, perhaps, the most disgusting part of it all.

[Rajvik]

According to those who make money off them?

They might as well be. Because their votes don't matter on the national level (Puerto Ricans don't have Senators or Representatives, only observers in Congress that may advise but not vote, nor may they vote for the Presidential Elections) they've no real way to address national policy. And Congress?

Congress doesn't care because Puerto Rico is subject to national level taxes but cannot demand through their representatives directly nor indirectly that its needs be attended to.

And at that point? You've got taxation without representation and second class citizens who get screwed over because it can be done at no cost to Congress and yet bring in a good chunk of money.


This changes when a Puerto Rican (or any other citizen from any of the US territories) starts living in a state and registers as a voter, as then they can vote for a US Senator and a Representative, as well as the President, as they are citizens of the US. Note that Washington (well, the District of Columbia) likewise has no right to elect a Senator or Representative, but IIRC they can since the 1970's or 80's vote for Presidents. Which is, perhaps, the most disgusting part of it all.

Here's a surprise for you all, I agree. The problem is that the citizens of Puerto Rico and other territories have always voted, when given the opportunity to become a state, to not become a state. They feel that they are better off being territories because their people CAN come to the United States mainland and are immediately have all the rights of citizens. THIS IS NOT THE WAY TO RUN A REPUBLIC

[Labster]

Puertorriqueños for the most part don't have the taxation or the representation -- they're exempt from federal income taxes. But what this means in practice is that Puerto Rico has a much less progressive tax system than the U.S. as a whole. It's a tax haven for the rich, but people with lower income pay Commonwealth taxes.

There are more interesting cases. One of the very first interviews on The Colbert Report was of Eleanor Holmes Norton, congresswoman for the District of Columbia. Colbert confronted her right away: in the decade she served in Congress, she cast zero votes on legislation -- an abysmal voting record. She was kind offended at the time, but eventually she became a regular guest on the show. D.C. wants statehood, and has wanted it for years, but can't even get Congress to act. I mean, I guess it's good that our capital didn't turn out to be the Paris of America in terms of resource use, but the lack of representation for 700000 people on the national level is ungood. It'll only get worse when the build the arcology. (Shadowrun, remember?)

And then there's American Samoa. People born there are American nationals, not American citizens. They can apply to become citizens, and don't need a visa to come to America, but they can't vote without applying for citizenship and paying up. (Well, they can vote for local races in SF and a few cities in Maryland, but that's not really the point.) They even get a passport that says that they are not citizens. They're not stateless, but they're sure second-class uh, nationals.

And I'll just point out that Native Americans only got the right to vote nationwide in 1965 -- five years after Canada did the same with First Nations.

[hazard]

Regarding DC; keep in mind that there are two states with fewer inhabitants that do have voting rights (Vermont and Wyoming). And Puerto Rico has a bigger population than 21 of the states of the United States of America.

Quite frankly, the US Congress should consider forcing state hood on territories above a certain population level.

[DHBirr]

Well, I expect the latest couple of years will convince the PRs they need to become an independent country.  And then get foreign aid.  Say, for instance, from somebody who might want to base missiles there....

Silly extrapolation, yes, but has this administration done anything to keep the average Puerto Rican feeling some degree of loyalty and/or friendship to the U.S.?

[robkelk]

Well, I expect the latest couple of years will convince the PRs they need to become an independent country.  And then get foreign aid.  Say, for instance, from somebody who might want to base missiles there....

But Canada doesn't have any missiles...

[Rajvik]

We can't force territories to become states, once they reach a certain population density they are given the option to become one, but it has always been the populaces choice.

[SilverFang01]

Most of the inaction on political status changes is due to the two major parties splitting the vote exactly in half, with those who usually answer polls as "independents" tilting the vote one way or the other by a couple of points.

Also, any time a plebiscite has been conducted there has never been a statement from the US Congress that they will act on the results. Without that we mostly see them as dick measuring contests between the PDP (Popular Democratic Party--Leave things as they are) and the NPP (New Progressive Party--Statehood). The Puertorrican Independence Party and the Independence Movement are a very small minority (thanks to COINTELPRO, government sanctioned police gangs, etc...) so they have very little influence on the results.