All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XXV

[Umbire]

I do not think we do, Rob.

[Bob Schroeck]

Sounds like a good candidate -- I know I've seen it a few times, but damned if I can remember the specifics right now.

[robkelk]

I suppose I'll have to write it, then.

It's obviously an Ending Trope.

[Norgarth]

Sounds like a good candidate -- I know I've seen it a few times, but damned if I can remember the specifics right now.

I seem to recall the BT fanfic 'Easier on the tabletop' doing this with Michael Hasek-Davion, With Hanse sending him to (knowingly) die in battle as a hero, with the alternative of having Micheal's legacy destroyed as he's brought to trial for treason.

[robkelk]

Sounds like a good candidate -- I know I've seen it a few times, but damned if I can remember the specifics right now.

I seem to recall the BT fanfic 'Easier on the tabletop' doing this with Michael Hasek-Davion, With Hanse sending him to (knowingly) die in battle as a hero, with the alternative of having Micheal's legacy destroyed as he's brought to trial for treason.

If you can provide a link to the fic, I'll add it to the draft page.

[Norgarth]

*a bit of searching*
here we go
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/...si.659596/
unless you want the chapter in particular that covers it, in which case it;ll take a bit to refine

EDIT: and found 8)
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/...t-82011841

“And If we’re on schedule, Micahel should be having his heroic death about when you reach-”

“Hang on, Michaels what?” I asked as I looked up sharply and refocused immediately on that statement, wondering if I had heard correctly.
Hanse could only possibly mean Micahel Hasek-Davion and the last I had heard from Morgan had been that he was still in secret DMI custody at a secure ‘estate’ about two hundred klicks from here.
Hanse simply tilted his head slightly as if in consideration for answering that (which was bullshit, he wouldn’t have mentioned it if he didn’t intend to tell me) before finally leaning back and gathering his hands in his lap, regarding me for a moment before nodding.

“He’s going in with the 5th Syrtis Fusiliers to Sarna'' Hanse finally admitted and I felt my face turn incredulous, all other concerns pushed to the side as I took in that revelation.

“He’s - Sarna?” I echoed stupidly and Hanse just nodded as I resisted the urge to ask him if he had lost his mind-

“No I haven’t lost my mind,” Hanse assured me, proving yet again I was pretty much an open book to the man as his own gaze now narrowed, but seemingly looking at something distant beyond the room's polished ferrocrete wall. “When we confronted him with the evidence and the implication we were still getting even more in - thanks to Count Vitios spilling - I offered him a straight choice. A very conclusive high treason trial that would damage the Hasek family enormously, or, he could lead the 5th into Sarna and die a hero. In return, I’d spin his treason posthumously as just another part of RAT. A game the two of us played to feed false intelligence to Maximilian. But Micahel wanted to make a personal contribution now and so led his best men into the fight while Morgan ‘minded the store’ on New Sytris…”

“...and he tragically died to see it through, a great hero of the Federation” I finished the thought, feeling a little disquieted at the revelation, looking away as I bit my lip, wondering why the idea made me feel so...dirty?

[classicdrogn]

I'm not really hip to wiki jive, but I have noticed that people tend to call kanji and to a lesser extent other pictogram based scripts 'moon runes.' Well, I don't know if (and doubt) it's the first example, but the 1989 anime Madou King Granzort featured actual moon-people pictograms in its first episode. Here's a screenshot:

That's a great image... but I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Is there a particular trope you had in mind that it might be used to illustrate?

... I honestly only hit this thread by mistake when checking what had updated recently (because I am very aware I am not hip to wiki jive, and can generally only be a distraction or at best toss an example for people who are to use) and have no memory of posting at al much less what I may have had in mind while doing so. The moon-people language in Granzort is jumble-sounds gobbledygook for fantasy spellcasting as far as I can tell, and has no apparent relation even in pattern to what's shown on the page. From reading my own post it may have been for calling anime/manga language (whether fictional or untranslated Japanese) moon runes? But that's more of a fandom thing relating to media rather than within the media itself, so probably not within scope as I understand it. Also a bit racist or at least English-speaker ethnocentric, as well.

So short form, I have no idea what that was about, and the only relation I have to the image is taking the screen shot so I can't really clear or deny its use if you want it for something, as long as policy allows such screenshots in the first place. Not that I remember that either, but it is on my imgur, so I suppose I must have. Insert shrug emoji here.

[robkelk]

*a bit of searching*
here we go
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/...si.659596/
unless you want the chapter in particular that covers it, in which case it;ll take a bit to refine

EDIT: and found 8)
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/...t-82011841

“And If we’re on schedule, Micahel should be having his heroic death about when you reach-”

“Hang on, Michaels what?” I asked as I looked up sharply and refocused immediately on that statement, wondering if I had heard correctly.
Hanse could only possibly mean Micahel Hasek-Davion and the last I had heard from Morgan had been that he was still in secret DMI custody at a secure ‘estate’ about two hundred klicks from here.
Hanse simply tilted his head slightly as if in consideration for answering that (which was bullshit, he wouldn’t have mentioned it if he didn’t intend to tell me) before finally leaning back and gathering his hands in his lap, regarding me for a moment before nodding.

“He’s going in with the 5th Syrtis Fusiliers to Sarna'' Hanse finally admitted and I felt my face turn incredulous, all other concerns pushed to the side as I took in that revelation.

“He’s - Sarna?” I echoed stupidly and Hanse just nodded as I resisted the urge to ask him if he had lost his mind-

“No I haven’t lost my mind,” Hanse assured me, proving yet again I was pretty much an open book to the man as his own gaze now narrowed, but seemingly looking at something distant beyond the room's polished ferrocrete wall. “When we confronted him with the evidence and the implication we were still getting even more in - thanks to Count Vitios spilling - I offered him a straight choice. A very conclusive high treason trial that would damage the Hasek family enormously, or, he could lead the 5th into Sarna and die a hero. In return, I’d spin his treason posthumously as just another part of RAT. A game the two of us played to feed false intelligence to Maximilian. But Micahel wanted to make a personal contribution now and so led his best men into the fight while Morgan ‘minded the store’ on New Sytris…”

“...and he tragically died to see it through, a great hero of the Federation” I finished the thought, feeling a little disquieted at the revelation, looking away as I bit my lip, wondering why the idea made me feel so...dirty?

Looking at the context, I think this is more "Uriah Gambit" than "Give the Villain a Hero's Funeral", in that he isn't dead yet. I could be wrong...

Changing topics, I got the Moderation queue down to four entries, the oldest of which was made the day before yesterday.

[Bob Schroeck]

<nod> I'd meant to add an xref to Uriah Gambit to your candidate if it wasn't there already, and yeah, that example sounds more like it than the trope you're proposing. I'm going to keep looking for the examples I know I've seen but can't exactly recall at this time.

[robkelk]

Another "do we have this trope" question:

The protagonist is ordered to bypass the usual chain of command and make his report directly to the person in overall charge -- the President of the USA (or his equivalent in other countries). Getting new orders directly from the Commander in Chief in response to the briefing is optional.

(In case folks are wondering what the heck I'm working on... it's a page for a relatively new book.)

[robkelk]

Wow, we had quite a few outdated pages in the British Royal Family constellation - as in "hadn't been touched since the fork" outdated. I think I've updated them all.

Anybody have time to de-stub the new page for Charles III? (I think the new page for Meghan Markle‎‎ is good enough for our purposes.)

[GethN7]

I'd like to reiterate my endorsement for Biomaster to be given autopatrolled soon, assuming their edits remain at a high level of quality as they have been. From day one they have taken a very active interest in learning our manual of style, have not fallen prey any plagiarism I can tell (any edits ported over are strictly their own or written out of whole cloth), and their edits are generally useful and constructive.

I would ask their game show edits be reviewed by others though, I do not follow game shows that well, but I can vouch for their anime edits thus far.

[Bob Schroeck]

While I have not reviewed every one of Biomater's edits, I have seen nothing in those I have to give me any concerns. I am willing to extend automod status to him, based on what I've seen.

[robkelk]

Why are there so many new edits in the Moderation queue that strip out the whitespace? None of them are marked as being visual edits.

[GethN7]

Why are there so many new edits in the Moderation queue that strip out the whitespace? None of them are marked as being visual edits.

I don't know, but considering they are not constructive in the slightest, I propose adding a rule that such is NOT to be removed in nigh all cases except when required to format certain templates and/or page structure elements for best visibility and clarity. Otherwise, such edits will automatically rejected.

[Labster]

How do folks feel about the new Miraheze Content Policy proposal?  It edges closer to limiting our speech -- I think we'll have to ask if we'll be able to stay on Miraheze in the future -- but I think we're probably okay.

Honestly most of my own objections are to the philosophy of the policy, which is very reactionary.  That is to say, it is almost exclusively reacting to problems they have right now, without even trying to use any of the tools they already have in policy to resolve those problems.  The rules aren't a bad idea, they just offend me as a policy maker for not considering the changes to scope, and future problems that could arise.  Every rule you add is a rule that can be rules-lawyered.

Plus I tried really, really hard to not mention squicky things when I wrote the policy in the first place, and it looks like they're on track to utterly ruin that.

[Bob Schroeck]

I spent a while last night reading through everything, including all the responses on the page at the time. Some of the changes I'm okay with -- basically the clarifications and rephrases. It's the stuff that subtly extends the power of the stewards to be arbiters of content that I have problems with, as I see an inevitable conflict with our policy of intellectual and expressive freedom.

[GethN7]

Concur on the new policy. I don't object to most of it in theory, all we do is present objective information, our NSFW policies are basically a mirror of what they proposed, and we are primarily text-based generally, so I doubt we'll conflict with it in the near future. That said, all it takes is someone going full retard to upend the apple cart despite the fact we bend over backwards to avoid drama ourselves.

[Bob Schroeck]

Yeah. My nightmare scenario is someone doing something that causes the Stewards to push the TOS to full-TVT where we can't even acknowledge the existence of NSFW works. I'm worried that even without someone doing something, they're going to inevitably creep into that territory.

Given how absolutely useless some of our alleged features are as things currently exist -- just try to use typeahead in the search prompt, or expect pop-up link suggestions while editing; you'll be waiting forever -- not to mention the random and all-too-frequent 50* errors, I agree that it's time to start shopping around for a more reliable host.

[robkelk]

I just skimmed through the proposal, and asked a question about #14.

[Bob Schroeck]

<sigh>

Timthetroper has just submitted a third attempt at a work page for a TV show called "Doel" or "Doel the Educated". It's been rejected twice already because of missing critical markup and style violations; the last time I rejected it I gave him two simple steps to follow (1, read the Works Pages Guidelines, 2, use the Page Creator) and warned him that if he submitted a third try still missing key markup he'd get a tempban for ignoring the mods.

Well.

Try Number Three shows that he did use the Page Creator, or at least copied the works page template. And he did add the tropelist template and categories. But all the tropes are inside a blockquote markup, he's somehow used part of the page title as the page type template, and there still are no bullet points.

He's clearly tried but he's still completely missing the point on half the things I told him he needed. So... he didn't ignore mod communications, even if he's never actually replied to me. The work page shows he's doing what I'm afraid is his sincere best. He doesn't deserve an attention-getter ban. So what do we do with him?

[GethN7]

<sigh>

Timthetroper has just submitted a third attempt at a work page for a TV show called "Doel" or "Doel the Educated".  It's been rejected twice already because of missing critical markup and style violations; the last time I rejected it I gave him two simple steps to follow (1, read the Works Pages Guidelines, 2, use the Page Creator) and warned him that if he submitted a third try still missing key markup he'd get a tempban for ignoring the mods.

Well.

Try Number Three shows that he did use the Page Creator, or at least copied the works page template.  And he did add the tropelist template and categories.  But all the tropes are inside a blockquote markup, he's somehow used part of the page title as the page type template, and there still are no bullet points.

He's clearly tried but he's still completely missing the point on half the things I told him he needed.  So... he didn't ignore mod communications, even if he's never actually replied to me.  The work page shows he's doing what I'm afraid is his sincere best.  He doesn't deserve an attention-getter ban.  So what do we do with him?

Well, I say we make clear until he gets it right, his stuff stays in Moderation limbo.

[robkelk]

<sigh>

Timthetroper has just submitted a third attempt at a work page for a TV show called "Doel" or "Doel the Educated".  It's been rejected twice already because of missing critical markup and style violations; the last time I rejected it I gave him two simple steps to follow (1, read the Works Pages Guidelines, 2, use the Page Creator) and warned him that if he submitted a third try still missing key markup he'd get a tempban for ignoring the mods.

Well.

Try Number Three shows that he did use the Page Creator, or at least copied the works page template.  And he did add the tropelist template and categories.  But all the tropes are inside a blockquote markup, he's somehow used part of the page title as the page type template, and there still are no bullet points.

He's clearly tried but he's still completely missing the point on half the things I told him he needed.  So... he didn't ignore mod communications, even if he's never actually replied to me.  The work page shows he's doing what I'm afraid is his sincere best.  He doesn't deserve an attention-getter ban.  So what do we do with him?

Well, I say we make clear until he gets it right, his stuff stays in Moderation limbo.

Agreed - that's pretty much all that we can do, short of writing tutorials on how to use the templates. (Which I don't have time to do in the foreseeable future.)

But if this troper asks for help, we should provide it.

[Labster]

Yeah.  My nightmare scenario is someone doing something that causes the Stewards to push the TOS to full-TVT where we can't even acknowledge the existence of NSFW works.  I'm worried that even without someone doing something, they're going to inevitably creep into that territory.

Given how absolutely useless some of our alleged features are as things currently exist -- just try to use typeahead in the search prompt, or expect pop-up link suggestions while editing; you'll be waiting forever -- not to mention the random and all-too-frequent 50* errors, I agree that it's time to start shopping around for a more reliable host.

I've talked to them.  Apparently they're all freaked out by the way a former steward was dismissed by recall; even though that was a special case, no one wants to make any controversial rulings now.  They're also afraid of vote brigades.  So this is a way of forcing the vote on to everyone else before triggering the controversy, so that they can implement the moderation that was already against policy but required an (obvious) judgement call.  (I have told them that the people who are unhappy now will still be unhappy later because that's what moderation is like.)  So really, we should see this as a null policy change, but a vote to actually implement the existing policy.

I hate to admit it, but I now think my original policy was flawed because humans are cowards -- or morons, or otherwise despicable.  Is it really so hard to do the right thing when the vast majority of people support you doing the right thing?

[Bob Schroeck]

And that concludes the current installment of the ATT thread series.

The new thread is here.