[RFC] Theories on Handwavium

[kentmagus]

From: clark.sanders@marduk.org

To: all.call@nation.fan

What -is- handwavium? Please add to submitted theories.

Phlogiston-The discredited phlogiston has made a comeback with the ability to create fire from himself with a crackpot in Northern Carolina. He also has
handwavium inside himself which accounts for the discredited scientific trope.

Collective Unconscious-This is the collective unconscious of humanity that's been unlocked to people in which certain libraries are opened for access.
Freedom Princess uses this to operate on the principles of quantum mechanics.

Wild 'Magic'-the wave mage from somewhere, if he can manipulate other people's handwavium in a wild magic manner, so he can try to shape the
effect. If he touches other handwavium, he could probably try to manipulate it with about the a same rate of success as anyone else.His own effects have an
instant duration and could be just as dangerous to him as the one he's fending off.

Quantum Mechanics- handwavium is actually spontaneous quantum foam generated in a macro scale and molded by human quantum entanglement imprints.

Superstrings-The Quatermass Institute has a theory that handwavium is actually energy from another universe which means every time handwavium is being used,
the universe is going to die soon. Tearing an inch off the fabric of the universe ie one handwavium application. But if a a million people tear an inch off,
the universe is going to be destroyed. Those theorists' main use of handwavium is using it to repair the universe.

Accumulated Faith-this is the one espoused by the various religions, pointing to how one has to have faith in something to create it.

Anybody else?

Dr. Clark Sanders, M.D

[Bob Schroeck]

From: bob.schroeck@ourtown.fen
To: clark.sanders@marduk.org
Subj: Re: [RFC] Theories on Handwavium

My favorite explanation, because I'm a deranged fan writer who deals in this kind of thing in most of his stories: Following the lead laid out by the great Heinlein, it's the accumulated creative energies of an author or authors from a parallel universe who are writing about us, "squeezed" into our 'verse from theirs in a kind of black hole/while hole pairing, transmuted into a physical form when it gets here. Of course, compared to the more serious suggestions, it completely fails when tested with Occam's Razor.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Foxboy]

From: vfury@VFPW.co.fen

To: allcall@nation.fan

Re: Theories

I'm of a Clarkian frame of mind... or is it Niven's Corollary to Clarke's Law: Sufficiently Advance Magic is Indistinguishable from Sufficiently
advanced Technology?

That said, I've discovered that several of my processes are getting harder and harder tech as we go along. This especially helps if you design your
'wave devices to produce a non-wave effect. I have recently achieved a hard-tech version of one of my first puppets. My control rigs still require some
'wave, but the amounts needed are dropping swiftly. I'm actually applying for 'daneside patents soon.

Has anyone else discovered a lessened requirement for goop to make things they've done before?
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[Ebony]

From:

To: [url=mailto:allcall@nation.fan

Subj: Re: Theories

BBI>Has anyone else discovered a lessened requirement for goop to make things they've done before?

A few things. The Institute has found that using the 'wavium in the constuction of equipment to _build_ wavetech reduces the 'wavium required in the
actual device. It's slow going, trying to predict this, since 'wavium has a tendency to ignore the scientific method and go left when you want it to go
right. But as for theories, it seems to respond to emotion and desire, both conscious and subconscious. We've had a few documented cases of 'wavium
responding not only to its "fuel"* but also to the mental states aroused by said fuel. (As an aside, don't treat your 'wavium like a
sourdough starter; it can have unpleasant consequences.) Materials that inspire hope, fear, and rage, in particular, seem to influence 'wavium quite
strongly, especially biomod strains. Has anyone considered that it may be a living thing, a symbiote? And if it is symbiotic, how does it benefit from
continued contact with the human species?

Blackstone

Banzai Institute of Biomedical Research and Strategic Information

"I won't give up, if you don't give up." - Patrick Monahan
Ebony the Black Dragon
http://ebony14.livejournal.com

"Good night, and may the Good Lord take a Viking to you."

[Bob Schroeck]

From: bob.schroeck@ourtown.fen

To: allcall@nation.fan

CC: blackstone@banzai-institute.org

Subj: Re: Re: Theories

> Has anyone considered that it may be a living thing, a symbiote?

Only about all of us, at one time or another...

> And if it is symbiotic, how does it benefit from continued contact with the human species?

Who says it's symbiotic with *us*?
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[M Fnord]

From: fnord@sovietairforce.fen

To: allcall@nation.fen

Subj: Re: Theories

I'm with Fury in the sense that handwavium is technology of some sort. We haven't had the chance to do any really *deep* studies of it, but some time
ago the Central Committee paid off a friend of a friend to put a sample of handwavium under an electron microscope. What she found was, well, extremely
puzzling. There appears to be a fine structure to the 'wave at the nanometer scale, but it's completely unlike anything organic. Some of it looks like
the theoretical manipulators described in nanotechnology journals, but the manipulators seem to branch down to even *smaller* scales.

This actually makes a certain amount of sense if you think about it - handwavium gravity control and power generation *have* to be tapping into some sort of
tremendous energy supply in order to move anything at the accelerations fencraft normally move at. If the stuff is tweaking spacetime at that kind of level it
explains so much.

Is it alive? It could be, I'm no biologist. It does appear to be like and yet very unlike Life As We Know It.

Is it intelligent? In order to manipulate the unified field to such fine effect I'd think it would *have* to be. A better question is, is it sapient? That,
I'm not sure about. From my own experiences I think handwavium in the raw form is *sentient* in a limited way, with some form of technological empathy
reading the user's emotional state and translating it into reality with variable success. It's not sapient in the raw form, but consciousness *does*
seem to be an emergent property if the 'wave is given enough of a framework to shape itself.

--M. Fnord

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Fen of the Solar System, unite!

The Soviet Air Force is now hiring Pilot-Cosmonauts and support crew:

http://www.sovietairforce.fen/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Cobalt Greywalker]

From: rock_doc@prometheus_forge.fen

To: allcall@nation.fen

Subj: Re: Theories

I've been working with the wave since late 2006, and everytime I've though I knew what it was something ELSE comes up and confuses me.

About the only thing I'm sure about is that its some form of technology. Like Fury I've too found that the amount of wave I need in my tech has dropped
as I used it. Heck, Winry and I are looking at some patents on cybertech. At the moment the only wave I use on my standard limbs is for the materials (and
that's barely much. I'm about two weeks from not even having that) and the nervous system junction. And like the Blue Blazers I've reduced wave in
the product by using wave in the machines producing them.

Also like Mal I've taken a very good look at handwavium under the microscope, and I'm actually surprised they got as good look as they did. Technically
some of the sensors I have available to me should get finer resolution than electron microscopes, but I get fuzzier images. The 'wavelets', for want of
a better term, also have some properties that I tend to find similar to Akashic Records (simply for the sheer varity of tech it can produce) and sometimes like
superstrings. Some theories of superstings posit there is only ONE superstring, and every piece of matter in the universe is just this superstring vibrating
diferently throuh time. This could certainly explain a number of event where the wave has come up with tech in my researches that I didn't know I'd
need for years.

Again, I've seen effects like those already described. Biological? Maybe. Sentient? Depends on your point of view. Symbiotic? Well, I'm a bit biased on
that one. I've even considered the theory its a throwback of the ultimate technology from the final moments of this universe.

Honestly, most of the time I hear theories about the nature of Handwavium I roll my eyes. Too many of them ignore previous observations, but a few of them do
intrigue.

Oh, and if I find an Emblem Seed? Maybe I'll let you know.

[robkelk]

From: pyrotechie@stellvia.lib
To: all.call@nation.fen
Subj: Re: [RFC] Theories on Handwavium

> What -is- handwavium?

A pain in the butt to work with, Dr. Sanders. It doesn't blow up.

> Phlogiston-The discredited phlogiston has made a comeback with the
> ability to create fire from himself with a crackpot in Northern
> Carolina. He also has handwavium inside himself which accounts for the
> discredited scientific trope.

I think, if it was phlogiston, that it would blow up. It doesn't.
So, Occam's Razor points to it being something else.

> Following the lead laid out by the great Heinlein, it's the
> accumulated creative energies of an author or authors from a parallel
> universe who are writing about us, "squeezed" into our 'verse from
> theirs in a kind of black hole/while hole pairing, transmuted into a
> physical form when it gets here.

That's just silly, Mr. Schroeck.

> I'm of a Clarkian frame of mind... or is it Niven's Corollary to
> Clarke's Law: Sufficiently Advance Magic is Indistinguishable from
> Sufficiently advanced Technology?

Are you thinking of Gehm's Corollary to Clarke's Third Law, Vulpine?
"Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."

> That said, I've discovered that several of my processes are getting
> harder and harder tech as we go along. This especially helps if you
> design your 'wave devices to produce a non-wave effect. I have
> recently achieved a hard-tech version of one of my first puppets. My
> control rigs still require some 'wave, but the amounts needed are
> dropping swiftly. I'm actually applying for 'daneside patents soon.

I'd be *very* interested in seeing the schematics for that puppet.

> Has anyone else discovered a lessened requirement for goop to make
> things they've done before?

Yes. It takes a lot less plotdevicite now than it used to for my
monthly maintenance session. The goop isn't going anywhere, so my
circuits must be adapting to hardtech.

> Has anyone considered that it may be a living thing, a symbiote?

You know my biggest complaint about plotdevicite, Buckaroo: It doesn't
blow up. That *could* be a self-preservation instinct.

> I'm with Fury in the sense that handwavium is technology of some sort.
> We haven't had the chance to do any really *deep* studies of it, but
> some time ago the Central Committee paid off a friend of a friend to
> put a sample of handwavium under an electron microscope. What she
> found was, well, extremely puzzling. There appears to be a fine
> structure to the 'wave at the nanometer scale, but it's completely
> unlike anything organic. Some of it looks like the theoretical
> manipulators described in nanotechnology journals, but the
> manipulators seem to branch down to even *smaller* scales.

Are you describing a fractal structure, Mal, or something even stranger?

> It's not sapient in the raw form, but consciousness *does* seem to be
> an emergent property if the 'wave is given enough of a framework to
> shape itself.

(waves)

> Oh, and if I find an Emblem Seed? Maybe I'll let you know.

Promise me you won't *use* it first, A.C. I like you the way you are.

Kohran Li
"Don't mess with Kohran Li, dude. She makes *asteroids* explode."
(Kirk Russell, at SOS-Con)
Listen to "Red Lad", Sundays at 15:00 GMT on Fen Radio Live!, 104.2 FM
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[kentmagus]

From:clark.sanders@marduk.org
To:all.call@nation.fan
Subject:Re[RFC]Theories on Handwavium
Accumulated Creative Energies-I've got no idea about how to go about testing this. My suggestion to the AI that we count the white holes and black holes in the universe and see if it's expanding was unilaterally voted down.

Reduced Wavium Processes- I've asked some of my colleagues. Most appear to not use handwavium after biomodification, and neither have I. Marduk runs on waved cold fusion technology, although it's fed garbage, and table scraps, rather than additional handwavium modifications. When it's opened up, schematics have shifted from the original plans. This is amazing considering it started out as something completely different though related. The other one who uses handwavium exclusively may be clinically insane and dips his devices into the stuff after safety protocols for baseline humans are enforced.

I've ran it through the conventional definition of life.

Homeostasis-It maintains a consistent internal state. This appears to apply if someone keeps it. If away from a sapient consciousness, it dissolves.

Organization-It may or may not be composed of cells. Some are, some aren't and these are from the same strains of handwavium, although not the same samples. Indeterminate.

Consumption-Consumption of energy by anabolism and catabolism. This is also indeterminate.

Growth-It maintains a higher rate of synthesis than catalysis when fed various materials.

Adaptation-It changes very rapidly in response to stimuli provided by human desires.

Response to Stimuli-It appears to infiltrate organisms that ingest it as a reaction or not. This can be described as indeterminate.

Reproduction-Handwavium does produce more handwavium and it appears to react very well to asexual reproduction.

So once again, the state of handwavium being alive is indeterminate.

The definition of intelligent agent is a system that perceives it's environment and take actions which maximizes it's chances of success. I believe a successful AI is one that is able to adapt solutions from previous situation to a new, similar situation. If handwavium is an intelligent agent that can tweak space-time, maybe it needs humanity for creativity to allow it sapience and become a true AI, rather than intelligence.

I did some tests on the guacamole strain to me looks like the molecular composition of guacamole. After running it through the same tests with some colleagues of mine, each one came up with different answers. One came up with the proof that it's quantum leakage of stable matter and energy. Incidentally, she's gone off to try to make her own pocket dimension off this evidence. Another when scanning found that it appeared to be a new atomic element. Atom 0. The orbit of electrons was held stable around the nucleus, it just lacked an atom where the nucleus would be. The electron orbitals impersonated the periodical table with the standard number of electrons.

The thing about handwavium is that some observations contradict previous observations and both devices work though they are mutually exclusive. I think handwavium may be susceptible to experimenter's intent as most scientists are interested in the outcome which is why they perform the experiment. On solid state science, this isn't much of a problem. On handwavium, the emotional stimuli may act on the handwavium. Or it may be both are wrong and there's a new theory that explains both.

Phlogiston-When I produced this conclusion to the aforementioned pyrokinetic, he tried to refute it by blowing me up. Fortunately, I've learned to run very fast.

Quarkbots-Space-time tweaks. How would one test this?

Emblem Seed? What's an Emblem Seed?

Dr. Clark Sanders, M.D

[M Fnord]

From: fnord@sovietairforce.fen

To allcall@nation.fen

Subj: Re: Theories

> Some theories

> of superstings posit there is only ONE superstring, and every

> piece of matter in the universe is just this superstring

> vibrating diferently throuh time. This could certainly explain

> a number of event where the wave has come up with tech in my

> researches that I didn't know I'd need for years.

I'm not sure I buy the superstring theory, but I'm not a professional quantum theorist, so I'm not too worried about that. Superstrings *do*
explain some things about handwavium's properties, but not everything or even most things.

> I've even considered the theory its a throwback of the ultimate

> technology from the final moments of this universe.

I figure we ought to focus on what it *is* first before we start looking into where it came from & who's responsible.

> Are you describing a fractal structure, Mal, or something even

> stranger?

It *seems* to be fractal, or at least each seperate element seems to be fractal. It looks like a cloud of microscopic bushbots, each one with finer & finer
manipulators that vanish into a haze the electron microscope can't pick up. I'm tempted to run a sample through a tunneling microscope, but I have a
suspicion that it's turtles all the way down to Planck level, which is of course impossible.

Also, spectrographic analysis shows a bunch of very interesting lines that don't correspond to anything in the current periodic table.

> Marduk runs on waved cold fusion technology, although it's fed

> garbage, and table scraps, rather than additional handwavium

> modifications. When it's opened up, schematics have shifted from

> the original plans.

If it's using a variant on the Pons and Fleischmann cold fusion process, that doesn't surprise me at all. The P&F cold fusion reaction was garbage
to begin with, and it would *have* to be significantly modified in order to work at *all*.

> If handwavium is an intelligent agent that can tweak space-time,

> maybe it needs humanity for creativity to allow it sapience and

> become a true AI, rather than intelligence.

Trying to pin *goals* on handwavium strikes me as folly in the extreme. Whatever else it is, the wave follows rules just as deterministic as the laws of
physics that it cheerfully violates.

> Quarkbots-Space-time tweaks. How would one test this?

We know that we're doing *something* to the unified field every single day in Fenspace. The unified field is everything, it's physics. It's four
elements and gravity is one of them. Alter the field, you alter physics. Alter physics, and you can do stuff like drive a car to Mars.

Exactly *what* the field effect is, nobody's quite sure. The LHC managed to duplicate the antigravity effect in an experiment six months ago - for all of
three microseconds, and over an area barely big enough to hold a hydrogen atom, but still.

--M. Fnord

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Fen of the Solar System, unite!

The Soviet Air Force is now hiring Pilot-Cosmonauts and support crew:

http://www.sovietairforce.fen/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Feinan]

From: the_jason@fatefullightning.fen

To: allcall@nation.fen

Subj: Re: Theories

Thought I might as well toss my own two cents worth into the hat. My own view is that the stuff might actually be a technomagical construct - something that
blurs the line between Clarke's Law and Niven's reply to it. No real way to test this, of course, unless somebody out there has created a mana detector
and not told any of us, but some of the stuff that it does is so bizarre that I'm not sure even Sufficiently Advanced Technology can explain all of it.
Even in my own work...while I can accept SAT might be able to enable the LEGO genetics that I tend to use in my creations, the fact that handwavium can
incorporate even non-living, non-DNA based items into a living organism, complete with the genes needed to make it work...that's what actually got me to
wondering about that blurry line. That, and the fact that ritual magic works EXTREMELY well as a method for getting good results from handwavium. Some of my
best creations were created using rituals: the memory boxes that I created for my girls and the Mnemosyne's Honey strain of handwavium created during the
same ritual being two examples. Even my everyday creations are half-ritual; while I use scientific methods in a lot of my work, the LEGO genetics that I use
could also be viewed as following the laws of magic. Using a cell from an organism that grows rapidly to evoke that trait in a biomod can easily be viewed as
following the laws of Sympathy and Contagion. I'm not saying that this is how the stuff works...just that it's an extremely useful way of viewing
it/working with it.

As for whether or not handwavium is sentient - my view is yes, at least for the exact meaning of sentience. Given the way that it apparently responds to
environmental cues, it does seem to be at least aware. In fact, most - if not all - handwaved objects appear to be sentient to some degree or another, since
so many of the quirks react to environmental stimuli. If they were non-sentient, that shouldn't be the case. Now...sapience is a different matter. True
intelligence seems to depend more on what is handwaved, rather than the handwavium itself - usually computer systems or androids and so on. If sapience were to
arise from handwavium itself, I would bet on it being in larger handwaved objects where you have more of the stuff to work with: the larger ships, various
pieces of unreal estate...that's where I would look for possible examples. Anybody seen anything that they'd consider sapience outside of various
computer-based systems?

The Jason

[Foxboy]

From: vfury@VFPW.co.fen

To: pyrotechie@stellvia.lib

Subj: Re: Formerly 'Wavetech, now hardtech puppets

I hope you don't mind that I sent this along to Mr. Scott as well? I remember meeting you and your "sisters" and I think your "father"
might be interested too.

Li Kohran wrote:

>> I'm of a Clarkian frame of mind... or is it Niven's Corollary to

>> Clarke's Law: Sufficiently Advance Magic is Indistinguishable from

>> Sufficiently advanced Technology?

>Are you thinking of Gehm's Corollary to Clarke's Third Law, Vulpine?

>"Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."

Perhaps. I know there have been just as many Corollaries to Clarke's law since the 'wave as there have been of Murphy's.

>> That said, I've discovered that several of my processes are getting

>> harder and harder tech as we go along. This especially helps if you

>> design your 'wave devices to produce a non-wave effect. I have

>> recently achieved a hard-tech version of one of my first puppets. My

>> control rigs still require some 'wave, but the amounts needed are

>> dropping swiftly. I'm actually applying for 'daneside patents soon.

>I'd be *very* interested in seeing the schematics for that puppet.

Again, I'm applying for Daneside patents, so I'm required a bit of secrecy. However, I believe if we can work out an appointment at Stellvia, I can
bring both my original and current versions of the puppet in question as well as the hardcopy so we can go over it. And perhaps you or Noah can help me on my
attempts at going beyond puppetry. twenty-third time's the charm, eh?

>> Has anyone else discovered a lessened requirement for goop to make

>> things they've done before?

>Yes. It takes a lot less plotdevicite now than it used to for my

>monthly maintenance session. The goop isn't going anywhere, so my

>circuits must be adapting to hardtech.

Now that raises some hope for my future projects. If sophont AI is becoming hardtech-able....

Anyway, I'm meeting my patent lawyers in Australia in about a month. I'll see about stopping by when we can arrange for all three of us to be there.
I'll trust Mr. Scott's judgment on whether or not to add anyone to our symposium.
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[Bob Schroeck]

From: bob.schroeck@ourtown.fen

To: allcall@nation.fan

CC: the_jason@fatefullightning.fen

Subj: Re: Re: Theories

> That, and the fact that ritual magic works EXTREMELY well as a method for getting

> good results from handwavium. Some of my best creations were created using

> rituals: the memory boxes that I created for my girls and the Mnemosyne's Honey

> strain of handwavium created during the same ritual being two examples. Even my

> everyday creations are half-ritual; while I use scientific methods in a lot of my

> work, the LEGO genetics that I use could also be viewed as following the laws of

> magic.

It's interesting that you mention this, TJ... I don't know if any of us have ever mentioned this in the open channel before, but the Corners was grown
over two years using ritual magic to guide and shape it into what we wanted. About half the folks here in Our Town are Wiccans, and there's a little ritual
stuff used on *everything* we make with 'wavium. In general, we get something in the close vicinity of what we want, and sometimes -- usually with the
whole coven working at it -- we get spectacularly specific results.

Now if you ask me, the polytheistic agnostic, this doesn't necessarily mean that handwavium has any kind of "magic" component to it (although the
ten-year-old boy in me would be delighted to find out it did) -- it can simply mean that we're very good at focussing on visualizing precisely what we want
using those rituals, which in turn makes it easier for the 'wavium to pick up on it and work from our specifications.

Oh, and Ms. Li? My idea is no sillier than some of the stuff the Senshi have come up with to explain handwavium... and considerably saner than some of the
Pulpers' ideas. And you of all people ought to know that we have some empirical evidence for at least one or two of the premises from which it depends.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[robkelk]

From: big-cheese@stellvia.lib

To: allcall@nation.fan

CC: the_jason@fatefullightning.fen

Subj: Re: Re: Theories

> Oh, and Ms. Li? My idea is no sillier than some of the stuff the

> Senshi have come up with to explain handwavium... and considerably

> saner than some of the Pulpers' ideas. And you of all people ought to

> know that we have some empirical evidence for at least one or two of

> the premises from which it depends.

My little girl didn't say you were *wrong,* Bob; she said it was silly.

We both know the difference between those two words. As for that

empirical evidence, expect to see a lot more of it at Serenity-Con.

(Vulpine, a word to the wise: You might want to hurry up with that

patent application. As in "do it right now".)

Further Deponent Sayeth Not - at least, not over an open channel where

the Boskonians can see it.

Noah Scott, of station Stellvia
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[CattyNebulart]

From: cnebulart@solbiana.fen

To: allcall@nation.fen

Subj: Re: Theories

I still think the best explanation is that handwavium is a toy, much like we make things like 'my little chemistry set' and other similar things to do
interesting stuff with while keeping it harmless. The only problem with that explanation is why we haven't seen the civilization that produces it.

Anyway the Professor is about to check his mail again so if you could suspend this topic for 8 hours or so it would be much appreciated. The poor dear needs
his rest and this would just needlessly excite him.

- Catty.

^_^

Didn't feel like writing the page or two that would be required if the professor actually got involved in this discussion so here is the explanation for
why he isn't.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

[Foxboy]

[OOC bit in RE: 'wave things that will not become hardtech in the near future]

Some discussion in Legendary Channel with Kokuten/Wiregeek led to positing a couple things that should ALWAYS require wave during the scope of Fenspace.

First: Gravtech/FTL should always require the goop.
Second: True Sophont AIs cannot be awakened unless handwavium is part of the process.
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[robkelk]

OOC:

Some discussion in Legendary Channel with Kokuten/Wiregeek led to positing a couple things that should ALWAYS require wave during the scope of Fenspace.

First: Gravtech/FTL should always require the goop.

Er... Have you forgotten about http://drunkardswalkforums.yuku.com/topic/1717]the Miranda mission?

Second: True Sophont AIs cannot be awakened unless handwavium is part of the process.

No problems here with that, as long as we can get close with hardtech. (A decade from story-now, Noah will call it "Artificial Stupidity" because the systems are so bloody literal-minded that it's obvious they aren't thinking, no matter how complex they are.)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Cobalt Greywalker]

OOC:
Foxboy:

First: Gravtech/FTL should always require the goop.

Rob:

Er... Have you forgotten about the Miranda mission?

Not to mention that hard Gravtech exists in Fenspace, Noah just doesn't really use it.

Foxboy:

Second: True Sophont AIs cannot be awakened unless handwavium is part of the process.

Rob:

No problems here with that, as long as we can get close with hardtech. (A decade from story-now, Noah will call it "Artificial Stupidity" because the systems are so bloody literal-minded that it's obvious they aren't thinking, no matter how complex they are.)

On the other hand, I do have some problems with that. I've established that Lebia is working on this, and the character http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_M%C3%B6bius]she's based on does in fact create AIs she can hold a conversation with and work with (and the Tachikoma in Fenspace are close enough that A.C. insists they take Turing tests). There is always the proposition that as Lebia is a Wave AI, she can create hardtech AIs (the handwavium in her allowing her to awaken other AI?) The problem is once a Hardtech AI exists it can at least copy itself.

Can I ask that any replys to this entry be either by email or in another thread? I'd like to keep this one focused on what Handwavium is. Thanks.

[Bob Schroeck]

Not to mention that hard Gravtech exists in Fenspace, Noah just doesn't really use it.

Right! The prologue to Legend of Galactic Girls makes it pretty clear that Stellvia's got hardtech antigrav, courtesy of a fellow from another time/space whom we all know and love.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Feinan]

From: the_jason@fatefullightning.fen

To: allcall@nation.fan

CC: bob.schroeck@ourtown.fen

Subj: Re: Re: Theories

>It's interesting that you mention this, TJ... I don't know if any of us have ever mentioned this in the open channel before, but the Corners was
grown over >two years using ritual magic to guide and shape it into what we wanted. About half the folks here in Our Town are Wiccans, and there's a
little ritual stuff >used on *everything* we make with 'wavium. In general, we get something in the close vicinity of what we want, and sometimes --
usually with the whole >coven working at it -- we get spectacularly specific results.

Bob, I would love to compare notes with you and your folks sometime about this. Does your coven subscribe to any particular pantheon or style, for instance? We
can talk about this later off the list?

>Now if you ask me, the polytheistic agnostic, this doesn't necessarily mean that handwavium has any kind of "magic" component to it (although
the >ten-year-old boy in me would be delighted to find out it did) -- it can simply mean that we're very good at focussing on visualizing precisely what
we want >using those rituals, which in turn makes it easier for the 'wavium to pick up on it and work from our specifications.

Oh, I agree. It's a wonderful focusing tool. The possibility that there might be a magical component in the stuff is simply my own viewpoint, given the
utter complexity of results it can produce. It so closely straddles the line between Clarke's and Niven's statements that viewing it as technomagic is
a very useful paradigm, especially for someone who is both a scientist and an eclectic pagan. You know the motto of eclectic pagans - if it works for you, use
it! (And if it's not our motto, it should be.) We ought to look into how many others use ritual magic with the stuff, and compare notes with everybody.
Might get some interesting data.

[kentmagus]

From:clark.sanders@marduk.org

To:all-call@nation.fan

Handwavium appears to respond to believing whatever we believe it is. So Captain Fnord sees nanoscopic manipulators to the Planck level, and the Jason gets
results from combining scientific theory with the laws of magic. So it's rather what the person believes that occurs, and so a Christian priest could
probably transubstantiate handwaved water into wine, and a biomod for an Asatru follower might involve berserking. Since this is handwavium, however, water
probably turns into something close to wine, like grape juice.or red-colored water.. The berserking has disadvantages all on it's own without adding in
handwavium's tendency to embellish.

About the antigravity effect, I already thought this could be done with diamagnetic levitation, i.e the frog experiment. One of my colleagues went and created
a handwaved mana detector, or it's supposed to work like one anyhow. So far it only detects handwavium and has crashed once already.

The Jason's dissertation on science of genetics and inheritance brought an intriguing conclusion to mind. If one had the proper temperament, "poetry
in one's soul" if you will, would it be possible to form legends and stories out of handwavium itself and then breed with each other forming a new
species that arose out of handwavium? I believe the Warlock series by Stasheff called this witchweed.

My theory on magic is that magic is simply the term for stuff that we don't completely comprehend yet. Science is the stuff that we can apply our
comprehension of to form new applications for. So technically, handwavium is magic until we understand what it is, and then science will take over.

I experimented later and asked a Christian priest to do transubstantiation, and rather than handwaved water to wine, we got handwaved water to blood.
OBviously not enough of an representative sample, but I thought it was interesting.

Dr. Clark Sanders. M.D

[Norgarth]

kentmagus wrote:




I believe the Warlock series by Stasheff called this witchweed.

Witchmoss, actually.
___________________________
"I've always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific." - George Carlin

[Ebony]

From: Blackstone ()

To: [url=mailto:all-call@nation.fen

Subj: Re: Theories

BBI>Handwavium appears to respond to believing whatever we believe it is. So Captain Fnord sees nanoscopic manipulators to the Planck level, and the Jason
gets results from BBI>combining scientific theory with the laws of magic. So it's rather what the person believes that occurs, and so a Christian priest
could probably transubstantiate handwaved water BBI>into wine, and a biomod for an Asatru follower might involve berserking. Since this is handwavium,
however, water probably turns into something close to wine, like grape juice.or BBI>red-colored water.. The berserking has disadvantages all on it's own
without adding in handwavium's tendency to embellish.

"Embellishment" may be the wrong term. There are numerous examples of items being exposed to handwavium with the only change being an increase in
durability. Several of my swords have been handwaved, and they are simply stronger and hold their edge better than previous. The shinobi of the Hidden Asteroid
do the same with their kunai, I believe. I think rather than embellishment it is a matter of concentration. The more complicated the design or numerous the
functions needed, the more likely there will be undocumented features.

Take, for example, a sword. A sword is simple; at its heart, it is a thing that cuts. When 'waving a sword, not much more is wanted of it than that.
Thusly, nothing else happens to it.

But a car is a much more complex thing, and when it is exposed to the handwavium, the users generally want it to do many more things. Perhaps this collection
of things, when combined with the ideal of the "Car," allows for more variety. It's not embellishment; it's lack of focus. By which I mean
that there are simply too many variables and factors to keep them all under control during the handwaving. And the human body is one of the most complicated
machines in existence, so handwavium has even more "wiggle room," if you will.

(Of course, now someone will find a 'waved sword that plays the Star-Spangled Banner when wielded in melee. I swear, this stuff is worse than Rule 34....)

Blackstone

Banzai Institute for Biomedical Research and Strategic Information

"It is said the warrior's is the twofold Way of pen and sword, and he should have a taste for both Ways." - Miyamoto Musashi
Ebony the Black Dragon
http://ebony14.livejournal.com

"Good night, and may the Good Lord take a Viking to you."

[robkelk]

From: Noah Scott (info@stellvia.lib)
To: all-call@nation.fen
Subj: Re: Theories

> (Of course, now someone will find a 'waved sword that plays the Star-Spangled Banner when wielded in melee. I swear, this stuff is worse than Rule 34....)

Will you settle for one that sings "The Battle Hymn of the Republic"? (I actually saw that overgrown butter knife once. Rumor has it that some more-literal-minded-than-usual Potterite wanted a singing sword...)

Noah Scott, of station Stellvia

---

--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Ebony]

From: Nezumi ()

To: [url=mailto:all-call@nation.fen

Subj: Re: Theories

BBI>Will you settle for one that sings "The Battle Hymn of the Republic"? (I actually saw that overgrown butter knife once. Rumor has it that some
more-literal-minded-than-usual BBI>Potterite wanted a singing sword...)

Blackstone can't reply right now. He's busy banging his head against the steering wheel. He'll get back to you on the whole singing sword thing.

Nezumi

Card-Carrying Genius, Markswoman, and All-Around Femme Fatale

Banzai Institute for Biomedial Research and Strategic Information

"Relax. You have nothing to worry about until the bullet hits you." - Lusiphur Amarallis Malache
Ebony the Black Dragon
http://ebony14.livejournal.com

"Good night, and may the Good Lord take a Viking to you."