[META/DRAFT/RFC] What crosses the line?

[robkelk]

Since the question has come up... Here's a few notes, offered as a starting point for discussion. Feedback and dissenting opinions are not only welcome, they're encouraged.


Occasionally a Fenspace writer may wonder whether something in a story violates the boundaries of what the Fenspace Collective have agreed is good for the setting or welcome in the current scheme of things, even if it's within The Rules. These guidelines may help writers in this predicament.

The easiest case is when the story element is grounded in real life and agrees with the Genre Directive. If the story element is something that makes things better or easier for people (that means everybody, not just your favourite character) and it's a cautious extrapolation of real-life technology, then go ahead and introduce it. Nobody's going to raise an eyebrow at a DVD that holds two terabyes of data, since that's a reasonable extrapolation of current technology as adapted by handwavium. (However, some things simply aren't available for lack of raw materials. It's been established that one of the First Fen grabbed all the easily-available fissionable materials in Fenspace before most folks made it Up, for example.)

If the story element is grounded in real life, but doesn't agree with the Genre Directive, there's a problem. This isn't necessarily a story-breaker, but it requires a lot of work and the agrement and support of the Fenspace Collective to pull off successfully. An example of how to do this is Cobalt Greywalker's Paving the road to Hell - it's a dark, almost dystopian, story, but it serves as the beginning of a story arc describing the "redemption" of the story's lead character. An example of how not to do this is murmur the fallen's FTL Newsfeed #235 - it's equally dark, but in its original form it didn't give any way for the characters to come back into the light. Paving the road to Hell and its sequels make up one of the better story arcs in the Fenspace setting, while FTL Newsfeed #235 is barely mentioned by the Collective even after its substantial re-write. (It may be important that Cobalt Greywalker was willing to listen to criticism about his story and work with the other writers to make the story fit into the setting, while murmur the fallen was not.)

Now we get into the trickier cases.

Does the story element exist to make one character as good as (or better than) other Fenspace characters in their own field of expertise? This can work, but is very tricky to pull off, and it's best if you don't trump the other character's specialization. For example, the Soviet Air Force (introduced by Mal Fnord and company nearly at Fenspace's Day 1) is very good at space exploration. That didn't stop Rob Kelk from later introducing Project Artemis, another group that's very good at space exploration but in a noticeably different way. However, Rob got Mal's help in defining Project Artemis before the group was fully introduced into Fenspace, and both writers have been part of the Fenspace Collective for a long time.

If the story element ignores established continuity, then it would be best to re-write the story to remove or revise the element. There's plenty of Fenspace history and social dynamics still unwritten; there's no reason to ignore what little has been defined. Especially since the timeline is available on the FenWiki.

...there must be more cases, but it's past my bedtime...fill in the blanks and continue the list, please, folks...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[M Fnord]

It may be important that Cobalt Greywalker was willing to listen to criticism about his story and work with the other writers to make the story fit into the setting, while murmur the fallen was not.

More importantly, when criticized Murmur nodded, said "yeah, I'll change that" and then never did. Moreover, he didn't bother to justify, defend or argue the case, he just sort of wandered off leaving the storyline in limbo.

PROTIP: This is a bad thing to do. It's irritating to the people who care about the work - not just Fenspace as a whole, but the specific story/wiki entry/whatever in question. Even if you think it's an uphill battle, you should always try to make a defense of your decisions. At the very least, it gives us the Collective a better sense of where you're coming from.

That didn't stop Rob Kelk from later introducing Project Artemis, another group that's very good at space exploration but in a noticeably different way. However, Rob got Mal's help in defining Project Artemis before the group was fully introduced into Fenspace, and both writers have been part of the Fenspace Collective for a long time.

And since we're talking meta, I'll be perfectly honest; the core conceit of Project Artemis was going to happen eventually regardless. This is because I am a *huge* Space Shuttle fanboy and the Soviet Air Force exists around Ptichka only because I couldn't come up with a plausible caper mechanism for stealing Enterprise from the Smithsonian. The other shuttles would have come to Fenspace at some point no matter what just because. Rob just happened to be standing right there when the brainworm emerged.

Onto other matters...

For me, Rule 0b is the key rule, particularly the bit about hogging the Cool. I understand that there's a strong desire to make your creations stand out from everybody else, and when the major established Cool includes (among other things) huge domed cities on the Moon, a wheeled space station crewed by meganekko androids, floating diamond cities in the clouds of Venus, a dozen different varieties of mad scientist, a colony of space ninja and the Goddamn Buckaroo Banzai it can feel a little crowded. Which makes it even more important that you talk to people first before posting a complete work.

(Of course, this rule was formulated back when half the board's population was at least looking in on Fenspace. Now that it feels like it's only me, Rob and Cobalt - with blue moon cameos from Foxboy, KJ, kentmagus & Bob - who have any serious interest in the project... well, at least I'm not bitter. Much. Anyway.)

ETA: Crap, that was depressing. Trying to move from that aside to something more productive:

When Cool intersects with Consensus, Consensus is going to win. It has to, otherwise the collaborative framework will break down. As an example, I'm going to pick on kentmagus' "Dr. Grey" story. In the story, we meet the title character, a standard Evil Mad Scientist(tm) surrounded by his creations. This in and of itself isn't a bad thing - the Supers are a notable faction with not a lot of detail fleshed out. Even though Grey isn't a *good* guy, he is technically a Super and therefore his existence helps flesh out the group that little bit more. Where "Dr. Grey, Scientific Necromancer" goes off the Consensus rails is in the second half of the title. While we're willing to accept Evil Mad Scientists(tm) in our fictional ranks - if only to balance out the Good Mad Scientists(tm) like A. C. Peters and the Mostly Neutral Mad Scientists(tm) like the Professor - Dr. Grey's abilities and stated accomplishments jump him far beyond where the Consensus has decreed the current state-of-the-art to be. It's like (poor analogy coming up) a somewhat low-key pulp adventure story and throwing the Silver Age Lex Luthor into it. As cool a dude as Lex is, he sticks out like a sore thumb and his presence breaks the setting. Same thing here with Dr. Grey. I do want to stress that the idea of Dr. Grey isn't the problem, just the initial execution.

This is why discussion is a key thing. Instead of having to critique a finished work - which has the potential of getting out of hand and leading to bad internet drama - going through an RFC thread with suggestions will help retool original ideas and help them fit better into the established collaboration.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Cobalt Greywalker]

One thing people should recognise is that there IS such a thing as overkill in Fenspace. This is something I run into quite a bit with my own story ideas,
which is probably my fault in how I put my characters together.

It's not as if the SOTA stays still even in The Real World; in Fenspace it can get insane. This is where the Rules throw some limits at the author. Limits
are not necessarily a bad thing, used properly they can make a story more interesting (hence Rule 1). Finding ways around the limits is a time honoured
tradition in Humanity.

However, the limits help stop us running away with things. We don't want to get to the Lensman level of technological overkill (There's this Big Bad
over here we can't stop normally. Let's throw a PLANET at them at FTL.).

You can move the limits back a bit without too much trouble, its moving them back a large way that you have to both be careful and ask about. Like Mal has
said, be prepared to defend your choice. If there's a good in-story reason for it, it will probably be more likely to pass the Collective's gaze. If
not, it'll probably be loudly rejected.

Also, I'd like to reiterate Rob's point about dark stories and the Genre Directive. We have Bad Guys out there, and they are not nice. That's OK,
as long as it serves to illustrate that the Good Guys are working against it. A redemption story works as long as that dark background doesn't take over
the story.

Collaberative fiction like Fenspace is a hard thing to do, especially when the setting allows for such potential. Let's all be good neighbours and talk
when we have problems. You may not like what's said, and the bounds of politeness may get strained, but it's easier to ask than argue.

[Sofaspud]

M Fnord wrote:

---

For me, Rule 0b is the key rule, particularly the bit about hogging the Cool. I understand that there's a strong desire to make your creations stand out
from everybody else, and when the major established Cool includes (among other things) huge domed cities on the Moon, a wheeled space station crewed by
meganekko androids, floating diamond cities in the clouds of Venus, a dozen different varieties of mad scientist, a colony of space ninja and the Goddamn
Buckaroo Banzai it can feel a little crowded. Which makes it even more important that you talk to people first before posting a complete work.




(Of course, this rule was formulated back when half the board's population was at least looking in on Fenspace. Now that it feels like it's only me,
Rob and Cobalt - with blue moon cameos from Foxboy, KJ, kentmagus & Bob - who have any serious interest in the project... well, at least I'm not
bitter. Much. Anyway.)





This is why discussion is a key thing. Instead of having to critique a finished work - which has the potential of getting out of hand and leading to bad
internet drama - going through an RFC thread with suggestions will help retool original ideas and help them fit better into the established collaboration.

I'm glad this came up.

First off... I've been reading and enjoying Fenspace stuff since Bob first introduced me to the board (by way of EPU and City of Heroes. Strange ride.).
I've got a half-dozen half-baked or still frozen ideas wandering around my head; Fenspace is full of cool and it's incredibly tempting to jump in on
that.

But.

It's ... nerve-wracking, I suppose, to try and get involved. From my POV, part of the problem is that you refer to Consensus, but there doesn't seem
to *be* any consensus. I've perused everything I can find, and spent Way Too Many hours on the wiki, and I'm still in the dark, really, about what
in general is going the hell on. Lots of stuff seems to be handwaved away (no pun intended) as something that Everyone Just Knows About. It could
very well be that I'm dense -- it wouldn't come as any surprise -- but I'm having a hard time finding a solid bit of ground to start from in this
chaotic, frenzied, free-for-all space opera you've got going on here. It's COOL, it really is, but it's also frightening in a way.
So
there's that.

Also, it's very much obvious that This Is Your Baby. I know you welcome new authors -- you say as much just about everywhere -- but, what, do I (as
someone who'd like to contribute) just post a message saying "hey is this cool or not?" Is there a protocol I should follow? What's the
deal? There aren't many examples, and the ones that DO exist ... well, not to be mean (we don't have to be mean), but I'd rather not follow
Murmur's lead, if you get my drift.

What I'm saying is, I at least would like to come play in your yard -- you've got lots of cool toys, and while the weather looks a bit stormy, it's
in the nice way. I'm just not sure how to get started on it. Maybe a primer, if someone could be bothered to come up with one (or suffer my questions
while *I* come up with one )?

So this thread helps a lot, actually, especially that last bit about an RFC process. I get that. So now I have an idea where to start, at least.

Am I making any sense here to anyone but myself?

Regardless, now that I have a framework of sorts to start with (the RFC thing)... I'll submit one within the next day or two and see if you guys throw me
out or not.

--sofaspud
--"Listening to your kid is the audio equivalent of a Salvador Dali painting, Spud." --OpMegs

[M Fnord]

Also, it's very much obvious that This Is Your Baby. I know you welcome new authors -- you say as much just about everywhere -- but, what, do I (as someone who'd like to contribute) just post a message saying "hey is this cool or not?" Is there a protocol I should follow? What's the deal? There aren't many examples, and the ones that DO exist ... well, not to be mean (we don't have to be mean), but I'd rather not follow Murmur's lead, if you get my drift.

Well, if you don't start a thread that's all harsh n' shit about Fenspace and our motivations I figure we'll get off on the right foot.

As for a process, we don't really *have* a formal process. Good examples of how we work are in the threads where we hacked out the wiki entries for Operation Great Justice, Luna and Mars, or the TSAB discussion thread which spun off into the Shuttles in Fenspace thread (which created a mindworm that's squatting in a portion of my hindbrain & refuses to respond to eviction notices. But I digress). Basically, the way it works is somebody comes up with an idea, and whoever's interested kicks it around for a couple days until we get it to the right shape or we get bored & wander off, then it gets archived on the wiki at some nebulous point in time. Once it's on the wiki anybody with user rights can tweak it as needed.

And you're right, there *is* stuff that it seems like Everybody Just Knows About, but a lot of that is stuff that we just don't have any fucking clue how it's supposed to go, so we're ignoring it until either it goes away or somebody has a brilliant flash of inspiration. Shared-world settings are kinda like laws and sausages; no matter how much you like the end product, watching 'em get made is an ugly business.

What I'm saying is, I at least would like to come play in your yard -- you've got lots of cool toys, and while the weather looks a bit stormy, it's in the nice way. I'm just not sure how to get started on it. Maybe a primer, if someone could be bothered to come up with one (or suffer my questions while *I* come up with one )?

Hey, if you're coming at this from a total n00b's perspective, I'm more than willing to help answer questions. The one thing we *don't* have is a huge-ass fanbase to pester us with inanities, so sometimes we can get a little (okay, more than a little) insular. So quest away, O Seeker of Knowledge!
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"