Vathara story discussion

[Matrix Dragon]

Continued from here: http://drunkardswalkforums.yuku.com/rep ... ply-141437
I think that part of the reason that this story bugs me is the choice to make Jack the Needs-Exposition Character at the beginning. He's the second in command of Stargate Command, leader of its number one off-world team. Before his sons death, he was a black ops soldier for at least most of the eighties, a field that requires serious smarts to survive. He's been a major player in operations against the rogue NID elements since the beginning. For him to know nothing about the hospital and the SAO players? It doesn't make sense, and it makes him look incompetent. Which isn't an uncommon thing for Vathara and Jack, sadly.

On another much more flattering and amusing note, I do have to laugh at the demonstration of how crossovers can often fix up plot hole problems. The moment you hear the NID and Ancient tech was involved in SAO, every single bit of bullshit about the Nervegears makes perfect sense. Of course it works in ways that should be implausible, it's Ancient tech. Of course something seemingly innocent is actually stupidly dangerous, it's Ancient Tech! (Seriously, those guys probably blew up a solar system trying to make a better lightbulb.) And of course Kayaba was able to sneak his murder tech into the general public, it's the NID, who probably hire Cerberus for contract work

[nocarename]

Not just that Jack, or Hammond who also gets used for this role, needs exposition, but that they don't change their positions.

Ever.

I'm also upset by occasions of not allowing Sam to be one of the smartest people on the planet, because no matter who they meet they have someone smarter than Carter. It irks me.

[deadpan29]

Check out the Fridge Horror section of Vathara's Trope page.  Most of it is about the military portion of SGC being rather shitty to the civilian staff.  Particularly Daniel Jackson.  Which may be indicative of her view of the show and the organization.
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No, I don't believe the world has gone mad.  In order for it to go mad it would need to have been sane at some point.

[nocarename]

Thinking a little more, I don't think it's just the SGC, but the entire US military.
Maybe all militaries as organizations.
Take the bit of Urban Legends that she didn't write, in particular the relationship with HEAT and the US Army. 'Deep Water' has issues between Hicks and HEAT which start to be mended in 'Gambit' as Hicks becomes aware of how bad things are.

Vathara deliberately turns the setting away before there can be any repair in the relationship.

Writer's choice, writer's responsibility.

[deadpan29]

From her Saiyuki-Stargate crossover, I think she may put more focus on Jack's characterization from the movie than most viewers. In the movie, he was chosen for the mission precisely because of his mental trauma. In the show, he seems to have gotten mostly past that because he has a new purpose and people he cares about, though his past with his son does come up now and again when a child is endangered. The version Vathara writes really hasn't moved forward all that much, he just has people around him who can cope with his issues.
Edit: That being said, one of Vathara's frequent themes is stories in which there are multiple groups or factions of "good guys", or at least not that bad guys, but they interpret actions and events differently because of their culture, history, experiences, or available information.  This story has the beginnings of a clash between the military culture of SGC and the culture the SAOvivors developed.  I'm inclined to reserve judgement until we see what Jack and the other SGC folk do with more complete information.
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No, I don't believe the world has gone mad.  In order for it to go mad it would need to have been sane at some point.

[ECSNorway]

As a counter-example, I propose Upon a Fiery Steed, in which Jack's first action, pretty much, is... to get into a prank war with Duo Maxwell.  He gets along much better with the Gundam Wing cast, possibly because they're a much more recognizable situation for him -- a regular military, technology he can recognize, all around not too far outside his comfort zone the way something like, say, Bleach, might be. Or a teenage dragon, in one of her stories.

For a contrast from another author, take a look at The Dragon King's Temple, which tosses him up against the Avatar cast, spirits, and all-around weird. He's a little weirded out, but "It was the Ancients. They did weird stuff." He doesn't seem to have much trouble accepting it.
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Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[drakensis]

While I do find Jack's position in the SAO/SG-1 fic a touch grating, it's still quite early in and the rest of SG-1 are indicating Jack's in bad need of some downtime and not behaving the way he usually was. This suggests that at least in this case, Vathara's got something specific in mind. Perhaps I'm being too optimistic but that's how I'm reading it.
D for Drakensis

You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.

[ECSNorway]

drakensis wrote:

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While I do find Jack's position in the SAO/SG-1 fic a touch grating, it's still quite early in and the rest of SG-1 are indicating Jack's in bad need of some downtime and not behaving the way he usually was. This suggests that at least in this case, Vathara's got something specific in mind. Perhaps I'm being too optimistic but that's how I'm reading it.

Hmm, let's take a look at the timing.
It's a year after Edora, so probably late season 4 (One Hundred Days was 3.17.) Dr Jackson is with them, which means it's probably before his Ascension in Meridian (5.21). Late season 4 gives us several points where Weird Stuff is happening to people and giving O'Neill reasons to be extra-paranoid - The Light, Prodigy, and Entity all in a row, probably within days or at most a couple of weeks of each other. 

Janet and Teal'c are clearly aware, in chapter one at least, that the SAO players were in a VR sim, not a coma, and stated so explicitly to Jack and Sam. Except that by chapter 3 she's with them in having assumed they were in a coma, they couldn't measure brain activity because of the NervGear, and doesn't believe in the VR sim any more than O'Neill. 

So, we have reason for Jack to be extra-paranoid, and we have a major continuity flaw in Janet's characterization of what was happening to the players. 
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[ECSNorway]

Additionally, I don't think Jack is the only one holding the Conflict Ball here.

Take a look at the scene where we get introductions, from Asuna's POV.

“We’re not involved with the computer-happy megalomaniac. Believe me, we’d love to know where the guy is.” O’Neill shrugged. “Introductions are good. You’ve met Dr. Fraiser. That’s Dr. Daniel Jackson,” a nod toward the curious blond in glasses, “Major Carter,” the blonde who’d called him sir, “and Murray.”

What?

The dark-skinned man in the hat inclined his head.

...Maybe Murray was a family name. Or a screen name. It just didn’t feel right.

“Now, if the nurses got your files right,” O’Neill went on, apparently planning to pretend his way right past stretching the truth, “you three are Asuna Yuuki, Andrew Mills, and... Corporal Ryoutarou Tsuboi.” He smirked a little. “You’re a long way from base, Marine.”

Klein blinked. Shook his head, red hair a wild mop of a mess. “Wow. Nobody’s called me that in... whoa. Can’t remember. Before I logged in for - heh. A lot longer than the weekend.”

“No one’s used your real name in two years?” Daniel blurted out. “Ah. I’m not a medical doctor, I’m an anthropologist... that just seems odd.”

Hairs prickled on the back of Asuna’s neck. That wasn’t an innocent question. Not coming right after the Colonel addressing the Marine, not Fuurinkazan’s guild leader. That was a wedge.

They’re trying to split us apart.

Maybe that was the right thing to do. This was the real world. People had lives here. Families.

But I don’t know this colonel. Who he works for. Why we’re here. I need to protect my people. I need Fuurinkazan!

Asuna looks at this and sees Jack looking to Klein instead of her, and sees it as an attempt to split her people apart.

Jack sees it as addressing a fellow soldier and an adult instead of a civilian child. To him - and he so far has little to no reason to assume otherwise - this is entirely logical, he sees no reason for trained soldiers to be looking to a foreign teenage civilian for leadership. Especially since Klein as a soldier is under the chain of command and carries an obligation to respect him and deserves his respect in return.

Both sides are making poor assumptions about the other, here. It is NOT just SG-1 holding the idiot ball.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[ECSNorway]

Well, I think chapter 4 makes it pretty clear that neither side is grabbing on to the Idiot Ball here.

Jack &co are simply not grokking that they're dealing with a community, a separate culture with experience at, well, a lot of the things he's been doing the past few years. He's still in "These are normal ordinary kids who've had something horrible done to them", and tripping over Charlie's death really hard.

Kiriteam, on the other hand, are dealing with personal paranoia about Big Government Conspiracies - quite legitimately, really - and their one source that should be able to bridge the gap - Klein - is being actively obstructive of it.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[nocarename]

I will write a chapter of any of my abandoned fanfics, picked by vote, if this has any meaningful consequences (for example, they are not smoothed out in an expository talk) for the SAO characters.
The SGC is being hobbled by the author, and the SAO survivours have been augmented so much by the crossover that they have to be kept paranoid to keep them from fixing the author induced misunderstandings.
Also, 'Leeroy Jenkins' being the label applied to Jack was not just tragic - and wrong damn it - , it was an authorial choice.