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Valles · 10-20-2005, 03:34 AM

...Or, Just How Crazy -Is- Angst-Boy, Anyway?
See, at the start of Naruto, Sasuke is gloomy, driven, and about as expressive as a rock. However, he's also clever, observant, and able to react well under pressure. (Well, up to a point - but nobody's perfect.)
Which means that, when Snake-face hits him with a jutsu who's -entire- -purpose- is to scare its targets stupid, his reaction of complete panic is, well, predictable.
So how the hell does someone that logical (if, occaisionally, oblivious) end up deciding that a complete psycho who a.) has flat out -admitted- to having all -sorts- of unnatural desires with regards to his precious Uchiha hide, b.) is demanding that he completely abandon the new emotional bonds he's managed to build (which we -know- he values, from several different incidents), and c.) was so weak that a 70-year-old fart (who, BTW, was wading through too much emotional attachment to fight at more than half power) managed to kick him out of the village that -he- wanted to take over... and make it stick... is a better ally than Konoha's combined repetoire of training, techniques, and support staff?
This is not a -dumb- decision, folks. It's fucking -crazy-. And, frankly, it comes out of nowhere, even accounting for his jealousy of Naruto.
These Curse Seals have mental affects - we -know- that, the Sound Four flat out -told- him so.
The implications are, I think, obvious. And I'm genuinely shocked at how many of Sasuke's partisans (ie, -all- of them) seem to have missed the entire possibility.
Opinions?
Ja, -n
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

classicdrogn · 10-20-2005, 04:34 AM

I've seen a few fanfics where everything is due to the curse seal messing with his head, but then they generally have a helpful, repentant Kyuubi no Kitsune (or a Naruto that fused with ... usually, 'her') remove it and everything is rosy and Sasuke and Naruto go off to have manbabies. Oh and Itchi and Snekey are messily killed but it's not really described because blood is icky, you know?
If only some ome who writes intelligently would take up the notion ... Ah well, since That Uchiha Brat is Kishimoto's favorite character, I'd say we have even odds of it being the official explanation, and some arc-quest-goal method of removing, controlling, or permanently containing the curse seal the meabs of his redemption.

This as opposed to dying like the sulky brat he is, which wiould be my first choice with canon Sasuke. I've seen an avatar pic of Chibi Sasuke holding out a hand with the caption, "Power please!" which about sums up my impression of him as shown.
(Takes a deep breath) Well, maybe the results of this little stay in Heartless Snake Hotel will serve as the kick in the ass that makes him realise he needs to change his approach.

Oh, and you forgot another disincentive to his haviung continued to run away with the freak show, though to be fair it would have taken a bit more perception and thinking than just about anyone uses (and this despite Kakashi's harping on looking underneath the underneath!): When he got into the curse seal EZ-Bake jar, he was with the Sound's Four Gatekeepers, all of whom also had a fully awakened seal. When he left it with his own seal complete, ALL OF THEM WERE GONE, and Naruto and Lee were there and had only minor injuries against yet another level two seal equipped guy. He knew that practically every Konoha chuunin and jouninn were out on missions, so if two genin were there chasing him that should have confirmed there were no other nins to send - and the Sound plowed through the returning team on their way out. The fact that his fellow Leaf genin could either eliminate or at least draw off the elite four from Sound should have been a sign that maybe this whole training-under-snakehips thing wasn't all it was craced up to be... and at that point, his seal was completed, he could have gone anywhere even if not back with the Orange Wonder to seek new styles and jutsu.

- CD Just take a walk down Treason Street to/Heartless Snake Hotel, a-we-he-hell/I'm burnin' for vengeance baby/a' burnin' for vengeance baby/I swore that my brother's gonna dieThat which does not kill us... has made its last mistake.
SERVO: Loook *deeeeply* into my eyes... Tell me, what do you see?
CROW: (hypnotized) A twisted man who wants to inflict his pain upon others.
" It's crazy to try to spell out all the mega-nooks and hyper-crannies of a Borg contrivance." - Doug Drexler
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

10-20-2005, 05:58 AM

Makes sense. But that begs the question, what about Anko?---------------
Leo: (July 23 - Aug 22)
You'll feel a lot better with warm clothes on your back and food in your stomach, proving that cannibalism has a couple things going for it.
---
Jon
"And that must have caused my dad's brain to break in half, replaced by a purely mechanical engine of revenge!"

Valles · 10-20-2005, 06:30 AM

Quote:
Makes sense. But that begs the question, what about Anko?

Several possibilities, alone or in combination.
1.) As his student, she was around enough while he was designing the thing to realize what was happening - which would, in turn, make the basic effects much easier to ignore/resist.
2.) When he put -hers- on, he didn't have anything he wanted from her, and so failed to issue orders to the seal during the most critical period.
3.) As 2, but instead, he wanted something that was, for her, Absolutely Out Of The Question.
4.) Anko strikes me as the type to have a contrary streak a mile wide. Her probable reaction to a little devil sitting on her shoulder would seem to be to tell him to go fuck himself.
5.) Dumb luck.
6+) Several more possibilities that I had when I started the post but can't remember anymore.
(More on Anko - Yes, I think her published age is correct. Given what we've seen of Snake Face's interests, and the conversation between the two of them in the Forest of Death, that doesn't rule out a damn thing.)
Ja, -n
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

Florin · 10-20-2005, 09:42 AM

Quote:
and Sasuke and Naruto go off to have manbabies

It disturbs me greatly that one of the most popular matchups in fanfiction right now is two 12 year old boys. And what the hell is up with the whole mpreg thing anyway? At least Side Effects has witty dialouge to make up for the fact that the author has butchered the Naruto timeline and canon.
I've noticed in alot of Naruto fanfic's (and not just the creepy yaoi one's either) that alot of people make Sexy no Jutsu out to be some kind of super shapeshifting skill. That makes no sense to me. Naruto is in the midst of failing the acadamy for the third straight year because he can't master Bunshin no Jutsu, so he decides to invent a totally new and incredibly complecated technique just to give perverts nosebleeds? When henge, which he already knows, will do the exact same thing? And despite the fact that he say's "Henge!" everytime he uses' the technique? Oi vey...--
"Ah, so now we know who the donkey is in the family. And where the donkey pulls the cart, the ass is sure to follow."
Jack Russell, Radiata Stories
--
If you become a monster to put down a monster you've still got a monster running around at the end of the day and have as such not really solved the whole monster problem at all.

Valles · 10-20-2005, 06:26 PM

Quote:
I've noticed in alot of Naruto fanfic's (and not just the creepy yaoi one's either) that alot of people make Sexy no Jutsu out to be some kind of super shapeshifting skill. That makes no sense to me. Naruto is in the midst of failing the acadamy for the third straight year because he can't master Bunshin no Jutsu, so he decides to invent a totally new and incredibly complecated technique just to give perverts nosebleeds? When henge, which he already knows, will do the exact same thing? And despite the fact that he say's "Henge!" everytime he uses' the technique? Oi vey...

It makes a -lot- of sense to me, actually - not in a worldbuilding, 'this is what's most likely from what we know' sense, but as a -plot element- - or, even, running gag - it's hard to beat genderbending for interesting and off the wall permutations.
And, really, I can see it being justifiable, if you assume that the Oiroke is, rather than definining what he wants to look like and then altering things physically, just saying 'make me a girl!' - which nobody who had a -clue- what they were doing would ever do - then handing that order to his subconcious - which puzzles over it for a bit, swaps an X for a Y, then recompiles him from the ground up. Very simple. Unbelievably wasteful in terms of power consumed. Completely asinine.
Gee, who does that sound like? ^_^
I can't help you with the mpreg thing, though.
Ja, -n
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

classicdrogn · 10-20-2005, 08:42 PM

The trouble with that theory on Orioke is that when he's teaching it to Konohamaru they go peeping and looking at girly mags for refernce material, and then K-maru keeps getting it ugly with a capital UGH for the first few tries. I think we really have to accept that it is, in fact, just a basic, lowest-level-genjutsu type henge.
- CDThat which does not kill us... has made its last mistake.
SERVO: Loook *deeeeply* into my eyes... Tell me, what do you see?
CROW: (hypnotized) A twisted man who wants to inflict his pain upon others.
" It's crazy to try to spell out all the mega-nooks and hyper-crannies of a Borg contrivance." - Doug Drexler
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

chibipoe · 10-20-2005, 08:58 PM

Yes. And I'd say that(assuming it were more than a simple Henge), that Naruto thinks that's all he's doing. But, like I touched on in my GatF fic(which is not dead. The latest chapter bedevils me, though), other ninja don't have a Kyuubi sealed in them. That makes some of what Naruto sets out to do turn out very odd. As for Konohamaru.... well, he obviously had little real grasp of the Henge, so even if all he were doing were basic, the constantly ugly women are unsurprising.
As for Naruto.... yeah. I can see him approaching it like Valles said, as just saying: "Make me a girl!" and using Henge as the vehicle. But typically, yeah, Naruto uses the simplest or least obvious approach to learning something. Plus, when he's in that state, his voice changes(canon, even.) So, as a plot device for fanfic? I like. Actually in the show? Highly doubtful.
"This hand of mine glows with an awesome power. Its burning grip tells me to defeat you....
Shining FINGER!" -Domon Kashuu, Mobile Fighter G Gundam

Valles · 10-20-2005, 09:03 PM

Quote:
The trouble with that theory on Orioke is that when he's teaching it to Konohamaru they go peeping and looking at girly mags for refernce material, and then K-maru keeps getting it ugly with a capital UGH for the first few tries. I think we really have to accept that it is, in fact, just a basic, lowest-level-genjutsu type henge.

It's a good argument, but not a killer one, I think. See, Konohamaru's been under Ebisu for quite a while when that chapter starts, stet? There's good odds that his training has included at least a glimpse of the theory behind the basic three jutsu.
A grounding that I doubt Naruto has.
So, when Naruto does SnJ, he -thinks- he's just doing a normal Henge - because, hey, pretty girl, right seal, can't be anything else, right? But Konohamaru actually knows -more- about how to do Henge than the foxboy does, so they're doing different things even if they thing that they're the same.
Probably it's your way, of course, but the other position is defensible if you want it in your story.
Ja, -n
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

classicdrogn · 10-20-2005, 09:16 PM

There's still another argument for allowing it, N, even if Naruto doesn't realise exactly what he's doing: Naruto's natural bent is on physically affecting the world - ninjutsu. It's the frst way he comes at any jutsu-related situation, which is probably why he has so much trouble with genjutsu used against him - his instinct is to fight it physically, not to doublecheck his senses. So, here he is, watching some other ninja turn into other things, wants o try it himself, he copies the seal and throws a bunch of chakra around, thinking about physically turning into something else...

I'm not saying it can't be interpreted that way, but it's not very likely at all in canon.
After all, if I was arguing against its possibility, I'd have to be arguing against desaix's Hokage no Jutsu, and with the quality of the story it's part of, I couldn't do that and respect myself in the morning.

Quote:
Hokage no jutsu (Shadow fire technique -- also, pun on the Konoha's leadership)
A kinjutsu varient of the sexy no jutsu, will transform the body of the caster into a ball of flame (which, as he has built up his speed, will spread across an area in front of him). The fuel for the fire is ones chakra, so any clones with linked chakra systems will not be of a help as far as survivability goes; if the clones chakra is independent, then the person who made the clone can survive the technique.

- CDThat which does not kill us... has made its last mistake.
SERVO: Loook *deeeeply* into my eyes... Tell me, what do you see?
CROW: (hypnotized) A twisted man who wants to inflict his pain upon others.
" It's crazy to try to spell out all the mega-nooks and hyper-crannies of a Borg contrivance." - Doug Drexler
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

Valles · 10-20-2005, 09:35 PM

Mmm. Actually, I'm -almost- certain that the normal Henge is a ninjutsu that actually alters the physical parameters of its target. Why? Well, if Naruto didn't take on the charictaristics of a Fuuma Shuriken, how the heck did Sasuke throw him at Zabuza?
What I'm suggesting for Naruto's take on the Oiroke is that it's a -real- change. That is, unless actively dispelled, it'll last permanently, and goes down to the genetic level. Sort of like what TGNH!Sakura is doing to strengthen herself.
Ja, -n
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

Florin · 10-21-2005, 08:27 AM

Well, I don't remeber them ever actually saying Naruto was thrown (and I know they don't show it), and I think I remember them saying he was running behind the other shuriken, but of course, that's from a fansub, so it' can't really be counted as canon. Have to wait till the dub gets that far I guess. Or does it say in the manga?
Of course, one of the clones does shove Naruto into his backpack doesn't he.
The problem is of course, that both explanations are plausable. Personally, I see something like a total molecular change as being a bit advanced for the academy, especially given how difficult things like Rasengan and Chidori supposadly are.
--
If you become a monster to put down a monster you've still got a monster running around at the end of the day and have as such not really solved the whole monster problem at all.

classicdrogn · 10-21-2005, 08:51 AM

I think that there's probably two levels of the jutsu with the same seal and name, the difference lying in better chakra manipulation and how much thee is to throw into it - the most basic, academy-level version is only a genjutsu, with no real-world effect, the graduate/genin level version is a combination genjutsu/ninjutsu that warps space around the user to give them the gross physical characteristics of the person or object they turn into while the genjutsu layer takes care of details of appearance and texture.
Then, there's Naruto's Orioke no Jutsu, which in canon is probably the second, but in most fanfic is a real, complete physical restructuring, which has been explained here as dumping wasteful amounts of energy into it with no more direction than "Make me a hawt chick!" and a predisposition to ninjutsu rather than genjutsu.
... and are we pathetic or what, arguing the nature of a specific ninjutsu? Oh well, being easily amused means seldom being bored.

- CDThat which does not kill us... has made its last mistake.
SERVO: Loook *deeeeply* into my eyes... Tell me, what do you see?
CROW: (hypnotized) A twisted man who wants to inflict his pain upon others.
" It's crazy to try to spell out all the mega-nooks and hyper-crannies of a Borg contrivance." - Doug Drexler
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

Florin · 10-21-2005, 06:25 PM

Don't worry, Star Trek and Star Wars nerds have set the pathetic bar nice and high. We're not in trouble until we slap on Forehead protectors and try to kill eachother with Kagemane no Jutsu for daring to disagree with eachothers position.
--
If you become a monster to put down a monster you've still got a monster running around at the end of the day and have as such not really solved the whole monster problem at all.

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