[META] Perceived Setting Assumption Contradiction

[robkelk]

This is in direct response to some people's vocal disapproval of my character coming up with a weapon. One of these people has said that "blowing up stuff for great justice" shouldn't be allowed; I think that the agreed-upon setting already allows it. Here is some of my reasoning:
First, on weapons in general: There's been some discussion about what the first major crossover storyline is going to be. Some people have taken to calling it "Fenspace: Season One". It's a war. More specifically, it's a war initiated by the SOS-dan. If "blowing up stuff for great justice" isn't allowed, then how the devil do the SOS-dan expect to be able to fight a war? Forbidding weapons necessarily makes the entire Convention thread non-canonical, by my logic.
Second, on 'waved weapons: Hulls treated with 'wavium are extremely resilient, to the point that they resist mundane weaponry. (They used to be inpenetrable, but that notion was out-voted.) Reavers attack ships for loot and prisoners. Ships that hit objects at the fractions of lightspeed that we've agreed ships use in Fenspace are destroyed, releasing energy in the megaton-equivalent range. A necessary corollary to these three data points is that reavers do not ram ships. If there are no weapons more powerful than mundane weaponry, then what are reavers using to reave?
Third, on 'wavium: As has already been shown in accepted Fenspace fic and mentioned in the above point, every 'waved ship is a weapon. As has been discussed, 'wavium is not intelligent. A necessary corollary to these two data points is that 'wavium cannot prevent itself from being used as a weapon. (Aside: I'll point out that I suggested putting a statement into the rules saying any 'waved weapon was a one-shot deal, but I was out-voted.)
In short, I can't reconcile "reavers" with "no weapons". We've already seen reavers in Fenspace - they underpin the first major story thread - so...

-Rob Kelk
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[The Hunterminator]

Hadn't it been agreed that the reavers used boarding actions?

[M Fnord]

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First, on weapons in general: There's been some discussion about what the first major crossover storyline is going to be. Some people have taken to calling it "Fenspace: Season One". It's a war. More specifically, it's a war initiated by the SOS-dan. If "blowing up stuff for great justice" isn't allowed, then how the devil do the SOS-dan expect to be able to fight a war? Forbidding weapons necessarily makes the entire Convention thread non-canonical, by my logic.

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First of all, I would like to say for the record that I really fucking regret *ever* coining the phrase "blow stuff up for great justice." It bites, it burns us, precious!
That said, the weapons ban was not a ban on weapons in general but a ban on using handwavium to create weapons. Since handwavium extracts ridiculously large amounts of energy out of the ether, the weapons ban was put into play partly to keep Fenspace from dissolving into a mega-cannon arms race, and partly to keep more cynical participants from introducing death rays and photon torpedoes to the mundane world.
However, handwavium can be used as a energy source for a viable weapons system. Viable weapons systems do not have to be death rays. For example, Griever decided to use coilguns, which are entirely possible using hardtech but haven't been built outside of labs because a weaponized version requires more energy than can be hauled around. Same thing goes for any number of lasers, particle cannons.. almost anything that the Reagan administration spent money on in the 80s becomes fair game.

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Second, on 'waved weapons: Hulls treated with 'wavium are extremely resilient, to the point that they resist mundane weaponry. (They used to be inpenetrable, but that notion was out-voted.) Reavers attack ships for loot and prisoners. Ships that hit objects at the fractions of lightspeed that we've agreed ships use in Fenspace are destroyed, releasing energy in the megaton-equivalent range. A necessary corollary to these three data points is that reavers do not ram ships. If there are no weapons more powerful than mundane weaponry, then what are reavers using to reave?

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Here I think you're missing the idea of matching velocities. Yeah, two ships hitting each other at relativistic speeds are going to cause one hell of a bang, but if they're both moving at the same relative speed along the same vector, then the two ships can latch onto each other without causing a multimegaton explosion. It's like when the shuttle goes up to dock at ISS or on a Hubble repair mission, they don't collide and disintegrate at a combined speed of 10 km/s because they matched velocities before getting close.
Some of us have been using an Age of Sail metaphor for space combat in Fenspace. The more I look at it, the more I think the correct metaphor isn't Age of Sail but Iron Age naval warfare. The tactics are about the same; maneuver into position where you can grapple the target and then send your boarding parties. If you can't board, then ram it or otherwise try to sink it.

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Third, on 'wavium: As has already been shown in accepted Fenspace fic and mentioned in the above point, every 'waved ship is a weapon. As has been discussed, 'wavium is not intelligent. A necessary corollary to these two data points is that 'wavium cannot prevent itself from being used as a weapon. (Aside: I'll point out that I suggested putting a statement into the rules saying any 'waved weapon was a one-shot deal, but I was out-voted.)

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And this one... I really don't have a good answer for. You're right, it *is* a gap in the logic. One of the dangers of group work with a rapidly-evolving setting, I suppose.---
Mr. Fnord
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[Sirrocco]

Not to be forgetting improvised handwavium-based weaponry. You can build things that are not inherently weapons, but that can be used as weapons. It's a matter of primary intent and initial effect. An overpowered Structural Integrity Field can be used to carve through hulls pretty neatly if you tweak it right. If you can manage to tweak your gravity generator so that it generates at range, you can really mess up someone's navigation, and possibly burn out their drive. If you've managed to develop some Really Quite Powerful speakers, and can attach them to your enemy's hull through whatever method - well, sound should conduct pretty well through most hulls that aren't explicitly soundproofed, and using the entire interior of his ship as an oversized, overpowered woofer box is going to pretty seriously mess up his day. Things like that are completely doable.

[Duane Peters]

The problem, when matching relative velocities is eliminated, then becomes: What are the Reavers using to penetrate ship's hulls?
I mean, if an ounce-and-a-half of stel-jacketed slug from a .50 Browning machine gun is ineffective against a 'waved hull, then obviously they're not using a crowbar to pry open the airlock doors.
We need to define more clearly what the limits of a 'waved hull's integrity actually are.

[Kokuten]

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We need to define more clearly what the limits of a 'waved hull's integrity actually are.

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well, we also need to define what a 'waved hull is.
For instance, a simple crowbar is going to be enough to gain quick access, albeit with a couple repeated blows to a side window, to any of my automotive-based vessels.
However, to blow through the side of Hephaestus herself, you're going to need a whole frigging lot of time and diamond-or-better blades on your industrial cutting tools.
I'd have to say that whatever is 'dramatically correct', and the Reavers are also going to have 'wavium support - they couldn't post a valid threat otherwise.
That means predatory AI, near-magical cutting and breaking tools, all sorts of unfun things. Say a black box 'hatchpopper' that can tie in and take over any sort of powered hatch via induction connection.
Say a 'cutting goo' similar to that shown on the pilot episode of Firefly, caustic and thermal cutting in a handy squeezable package.
Say a compressed-gas punch 'one-shot' grappling hook that can pierce almost anything by slamming a depleted uranium barbed hook into the side of your hull.

I concur, more information on hull strengths and penetration methods would be helpful, but we can always fall back on 'dramatically correct'.Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[robkelk]

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That said, the weapons ban was not a ban on weapons in general but a ban on using handwavium to create weapons.

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No arguement there. I mentioned the "weapons in general" point to (a) lay the groundwork for the following points, and (b) pre-empively squelch anyone who thought Fenspace was a utopia. (It isn't, nor is it a dystopia; it's an interesting place.)

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Here I think you're missing the idea of matching velocities. Yeah, two ships hitting each other at relativistic speeds are going to cause one hell of a bang, but if they're both moving at the same relative speed along the same vector, then the two ships can latch onto each other without causing a multimegaton explosion.

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With the rules we've agreed on and have used throughout almost all of the threads here, I can only see two cases where matching velocities would work in space:
(1) The ships are cooperating with each other. Most Fen aren't going to blithely let reavers match speeds with them; they're going to cut and run.
(2) One of the ships is powerless to prevent the maneuver... which brings us back to "how, if not with weapons?"
"Faster reaver ships" would solve this problem, but faster ships are smaller ships, and reavers need to use larger ships - they need the extra room for hauling boarders, loot, and prisoners.
So, unless reavers are working in packs, with a lot of small attack ships (pilot and one or two boarders) supported by a few bigger cargo ships, we come back to needing something to stop or slow a victim ship so that its speed can be matched. And if the reavers are working in packs of small craft, then they have the problem of delivering enough boarders at once to take over the victim's ship... Either way, reavers have a non-trivial problem to solve if they don't have access to effective ship-to-ship weapons.

-Rob Kelk
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Sirrocco]

I believe the previously established answer was "reavers in smaller and faster ships" with various ways to compensate for that on the reaver side.
- Reavers would, on average, have better weaponry and combat training than civilians. Thus, it should be possible to overwhelm most ships without needing numerical superiority
- The basic Reaver Plan is to smash your way in, capture as many of the crew as can be done efficiently, killing the rest, and then fly both ships home. This can be done through a variety of means. They could disable the drive of the captured ship, latch their ship on, and haul it home. They could attach their own ship to the captured ship and threaten the crew until they got enough of an explanation how to drive the captured ship and driver her home. Worst case scenario, they grab the most valuable small stuff they can get their hands on quickly, drag along any captives, and head out, leaving the discarded ship where it is for possible later pickup by a reaver craft with more hauling power.
- It's also worth looking at who the targets are going to be. Small compact cars are a lot of hassle for what might be very little payoff unless you have some way to disable the drive from a distance, from ambush. Really, as a reaver, you want to be going after ships of decent size - generally things that aren't quite making .1c to begin with. If you're willing to overbuild the engine and work with a few engine quirks, it's not too hard to come up with someone that'll fit a pilot, a boarding team of 5 or 6, and a small, miserable hole for prisoners, and still manage to make it in a touch above that magical .1 mark.

[classicdrogn]

The basic design Sirocco laid out in his last paragraph is preetty much exactly the way I envisioned the Boskone shuttles Wave Convoy was facing in the flash-forward segments of Surfing With The Alien, with the addition of a wedged-shaped nose that has an overpowered structural integrity field with which to ram at a dozen or so mps relative velocity, the froint of which then opens on heavy hydralic rams to latch in place and reveal a boarding ramp, while thick, gummy goo oozes out of the middle-toaft sections to make a temporary environmental seal. The boarding parties are in hard armor, possibly one or two with powered armor and heavy weapons. Overall size is along the lines of a city bus, a cramped pilot compartment high and forward, possibly offset for the boarding ramp access tube, and with a pressure door in case the boarding area loses atmosphere , then the boarders' ready seats and weapon racks taking up the full height, another pressure door leading back through a section with 6-8 tiny people-lockers for prisoners, and a small area for access to the engine spaces. Having the target lose atmosphere around the ram until the seal fils is actually part of the strategy - the rally area can be overpressurized (their armor is pressure tight both ways) and the internal fast-open door in the boarding ramp opened when they're lined up in the tube to shoot them out and through any hastily laid defense line. Slap some fins on the back and a go-faster stripe down the side from the shark mouth at the prow, et viola.
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CROW: (hypnotized) A twisted man who wants to inflict his pain upon others.
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[drakensis]

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I mean, if an ounce-and-a-half of stel-jacketed slug from a .50 Browning machine gun is ineffective against a 'waved hull, then obviously they're not using a crowbar to pry open the airlock doors.

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That depends on the hull. At the bottom end, waved hulls will resist pistol rounds and most rifle rounds. A .50cal bullet might be enough to pose a threat, a 20mm cannon usually is. Repeated impacts would probably cause a breech.
If any particular emphasis is made on the hull being 'tough' or bulletproof, then things like Rocket-Propelled Grenades become little or no threat and even a tank cannon will require repeated impacts. You still won't be shrugging off battleship guns, much less nukes, but there's not very much likelihood of running into those.
However, handwavium hull cutting tools exist - for that matter, airlocks can be breeched by boarders. Crew disabling devices can be adapted, if conventional weapons aren't favoured for whatever reason.

Ramming is effective for anti-ship attacks if you're small enough to catch your target and can hit them hard enough but Reavers don't profit by it so they aren't likely to use it except in extremes. The 'ramming to board' design seems like it would work.
D for Drakensis

You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.

[Rieverre]

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Ramming is effective for anti-ship attacks if you're small enough to catch your target and can hit them hard enough but Reavers don't profit by it so they aren't likely to use it except in extremes. The 'ramming to board' design seems like it would work

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And you just know that if they actually have a major capship, it's going to be a Adeptus Astartes Cathedral, complete with those nifty boarding barges it fires in bloody broadsides.
-Griever
When tact is required, use brute force. When force is required, use greater force.
When the greatest force is required, use your head. Surprise is everything. - The Book of Cataclysm

[kestrel404]

While it may not be possible to make weapons directly with wavetech, it's dirt simple to use what we've already got to make far superior arms.
A few choice elements out of a fic I'll be posting 'any day now':
'Fire and Forget' - You take a waved engine (the kind that will get an SUV up to .1c). You cover it in iron plates and wave them. You give it a few really small and simple radar antennas. You attach the steering mechanism and the antennas to a cheap computer processor (an old pentium system or one of those free-after-rebate 'net boxes, whatever). You program it go straight at whatever it's been fired at - forever. You give it a reasonable turning radius. It probably goes .11c or so. Now you've got a half-ton waved-steel bullet that will eventually hit whatever you shoot it at with a relative velocity of AT LEAST 1% of C. The only Wavium involved is in the hull and the engine - both of which have been shown can be mass-produced with minimal to no quirks. All you need is someone good enough to program the unwaved computer it runs on - any CS grad student could probably do this.
'Slow down so we can catch you' - Similar setup, but you don't need nearly as much armor on the engine. What it does have is a claw attachment that will sink into just about any waved hull you can name. It's programmed to hit the target (not too fast), sink its claws in, and then use its engine in the exact opposite vector of however the ship its attached to is moving. Once you've mastered the programming for 'fire and forget', this is a somewhat more advanced model. The engine will likely burn out after a few minutes - but your ship is dead in the water for that few minutes, with reavers coming in at an appreciable fraction of C. This really only works on cars and similar small vehicles, although a horde of these could be used against the larger ships.
'Wave your .44 and use HV bullets' - There are much better explosives than gunpowder. The kind that could much larger bullets much faster. We don't generally put these materials in bullets because they would cause the guns to blow up. But 'waved materials are much stronger than their natural counterparts. So you drop your grandfather's elephant gun into a bucket of handwavium. You either pull out an oddly shaped paperweight (the 'wavium decided to change the shape/function of the device), or a rifle that fires half-pound buckshot and will never break - no matter what kind propellent you put in the cartridges. And without air resistance, a half pound of waved steel travelling at Mach 5 stays at Mach 5 until it hits something. (This, by the way, is probably more efficient, easier to set up, and cheaper than railguns, which is why I mention it here in their place)
'Platemail seems to be popular this season' - The biggest reason why platemail is a poor choice for armor these days is because A)it's heavy and B)it won't stop bullets. You take corrugated cardboard, press it into the appropriate shapes, (possibly cover it with tin foil) wave it, and suddenly you've got a four pound suit of wearable ship-hull plating. Guaranteed to stop anything short of that Mach-5 bullet. For the joints, use waved chainmail. Suddenly, medieval armor is back in style. And if you think those Storm-trooper warsies haven't waved their costumes yet (making them better armor than anything the current day military has access to), you're crazy. Arm a few goons with this kind of armor and a metal pipe and you've got an army that can take down just about any modern military ground force that isn't using tanks.
It's not pretty, and it's not meant to be. If you're in it for the proffit out there, you're not trying to be stylish. And whoever is leading the reavers knows this.
You'll note that the only two properties I've used thus far are 'wavium can make something really tough' and 'wavium can make engines do .1c when attached to something the size of a car', and modern (10 year old or older, really) hardtech. The reavers HAVE weapons. They ARE dangerous. They CAN catch you. And they don't need black holes, laser pistols, or anything even remotely sci-fi to do it.
"Not this again!" Minerva said. "Albus, it was You-Know-Who, not you, who marked Harry as his equal. There is no possible way that the prophecy could be talking about you!" - Harry Potter and the Method of Rationality, Chapter 84

[KJ]

Well, as has been stated before, one of the things that I was picturing in general was the Reavers preying on larger things. In null G, with determined passengers, you could pack a lot of people onto something the size of a van, which would make a decent boarding craft for larger stuff. There's also something to be said for the element of surprise; pre-con, how many people are going to be focusing that in-depth on sensors that some people here and there would fail to notice a ship creeping up into grappling range from a blindspot?
I kinda like the semi-nerfing of the 'wavium hulls, in that it does make some of the high-grade hardtech weapons usable.
On the points that kestrel404 brought up... 'Fire and Forget' I just don't like; it's internally consistent with stuff that's been posted in the setting, sure, but... meh, y'know, generic comments about the sheer kinetic energy involved and what it could do against the mundanes. 'Wave your .44 and use HV bullets' is... well, whether or not gooping conventional firearms would work, it's overlooking the actual main reason firearms aren't loaded with more propellant, which is that anything with much more muzzle energy than a 50 calibre sniper rifle is liable to maim or kill the shooter. So, to use the example, even if you could make an elephant rifle firing a half pound of steel shot at mach 5, you'd only really be able to fire it once because the recoil would drive the stock through your shoulder and out your back.
I *really* like 'Slow down so we can catch you' though, and the basics behind 'Platemail seems to be popular this season' occured to me too... though it should be noted that most plate is of steel not much thicker than that in car bodies, so it's not going to end up *that* bulletproof.