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Necratoid Wrote:Okay.. this is starting to go into, You Fail Logic Forever territory... Your putting Zeke and Co. in this already... which means Usagi is the there. Usagi who carries the Shiney Rock of Love and Justice. Which has canon powers like... curing members of the Black Moon family. That got their powers from a cosmic monkey's paw horror (The Doom Phantom), that does to them exactly what you've been describing... though there was also much in the way of hormones and vengence, to go with the depression (and the time travel thing)... Usagi fixes the 4 sisters and they keep their powers. She does the same for the Doom Tree idiots. The 7 shadows reincarnations, those Galaxia warps, etc.. etc...
Seriosly, SM's cast is actually trained to deal with this kind of thing. As plot hooks have the problem come up at one of Mr. Invador's parties and a TSAB contact discusing random problem areas. The Oni are a large area, space faring race with interdimensional capablities after all. Neptune is actually a magic capable society with interdimsional tech. That is at least two groups in Zekeverse that can recomend Zeke and Co. They have in demand, highly marketable skills. Realistcally the SRLJ is on par with at least the combined might of the jewel seeds... and at least for Usagi, safer and faster to recharge.
Seriously, while the TSAB may have little clue how to deal with this kind of thing, so if they do degrade after a while maay end up on life support equivalents. However, they will likely have corruption issues verses Usagi... as in if they are too far gone mentally and ethically... they won't be healed... they'll be erased. Other than that, side effect include: getting over yourself, temporary emotional effects similar to getting dunked positively charge ectoplasm, and a compulsion to stare like a deer in headlights and exclaim 'Lovely'.
Seriously, Sailor Moon is a Apex Predator of those kind of things. Sailor Moon offs cosmic horrors professionally. Moon and Saturn are basically cosmic horrors in their own way. Hrm. Granted, while I am going to try and build up Usagi to be more professional in how she deals with the monster of the week, she's still going to be her goofy self... Queen Serenity!Usagi, on the other hand... *shruggs* We'll see.
But anyhow, I'm not too clear on what you're saying. Do you mean that the matter should be handled by Usagi and her Senshi and no others? Because I could see Zeke letting Usagi take charge of her team here while he simply supervises her efforts and deals with Kyubei on a more personal level. ("Raven's got business with you, asshole.")
I still haven't decided on what to to about the Neptune Issue. I think I'm going to do one of two things: either give them the Bottled City of Kandor treatment, or have them be in a nearby star-system instead.
I think your confusing 'cleansing' for 'healing'. One is a purge of all things negative - an exorcism where nothing is spared. The other is more like a repair where negative things were corrected. This also explains why some people kept their powers... and others didn't.
Oh, and can someone shrink down that time-line image so it's not playing havoc on the thread? I like pretty pictures as much as the next guy, but I hate having to side-scroll all the time to read messages.
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blackaeronaut Wrote:Oh, and can someone shrink down that time-line image so it's not playing havoc on the thread? I like pretty pictures as much as the next guy, but I hate having to side-scroll all the time to read messages. If you are using Firefox, may I recommend this add-on? It lets one control the size of individual images using the mouse. I've been using it to shrink the timeline picture so it doesn't break the page.
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Jorlem Wrote:blackaeronaut Wrote:Oh, and can someone shrink down that time-line image so it's not playing havoc on the thread? I like pretty pictures as much as the next guy, but I hate having to side-scroll all the time to read messages. If you are using Firefox, may I recommend this add-on? It lets one control the size of individual images using the mouse. I've been using it to shrink the timeline picture so it doesn't break the page. Is there some way in the post I can tell yuku to do that? I'm just linking the image in that post.
Basically, when it comes to the cleansing or healing...Usagi has spells for that. Granted when in the time line this happens matters. After arc 3, Angsty Idiots of Nemisis, Sailoor Moon will have the ability to stabalize
this particular brand of magical girl. Its just she needs to be redemable in the first place. If they are awaiting death at Usagi's hands (A.K.A. the announcer suddenly yell FINISH HER!) and/or doing wangsting, emo rants about how far gone they think they are... Usagi can probablly help them stabalize. They go Giant Witch (or dragon) or are just Stupid Evil they get edited out of existance. They survive and they are going to be 'I'm on Good painkillers and lots of them!' happy for a bit, but unless they are Mazoku and feed of malignat emotions or something, they are going to recover. Usagi isn't picky about the human thing and with Lum and her social group around Usagi will be less so than baseline. It sounds, if anything, like any expiration date on their bodies is more security feature than integral part of their being. Like what causes 'vampirism' in sexriods. Its a feature not a bug.
What I meant by professional is that the Sailor Senshi, Usagi and to a lesser extent Rei in particular are geared towards dealing with exactly this kind of problem... its their character class. Granted its all on the job training for the most part, but this is what they do.
Neptune is easy. They live in the equivalent of the Magical world in Negima. Only its linked only to Neptune (not o Mars getting initial power from Earth.).... basically it was a Silver Millennium public works project and the populous that could retreated into the place when the main world lost atmosphere. Being adapted for an ice world and all having some level of magic they've managed to make this a permanent realm... the only real side effect is Neptune should have a lot more fire power due to the planet actually having people, magic users at that, on it. I can only remember them getting to and off Neptune via portal anyway.
I'm always kind of annoyed when people tell me that I need to change browser religion... so they don't have to bother with doing things. Then they start insisting I need to convert to their favorite. Personal pet peeve of mine.
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It's not specifically stated, but once the girls are made into magical girls, they essentially use little bits of magic for everything, even when not transformed. You're right, it's basically insurance that the girls will eventually transform into witches. The use of their power is what corrupts the Gems. Put another way, the magic they use is inherently corrupting--it's a power that humans aren't meant to wield. That being said, the power is still shaped to the girl's wish and personality. Homura shows that one could master more the magic's uses given time and motivation. She's definitely the Guile (Anti-)Hero, albeit a Shell Shocked one.
Thanks for the help, Bob!
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Okay then. I was pretty much planning on having this mostly be Zeke and the Senshi anyways, with others as backup, because it seems like mundane daka does just as effectively as the magical variety.
And DAMN! That is one NASTY piece of work. So, in order to keep them from turning into witches, the power that supports them needs to have it's polarity flipped, I guess. Any other ideas? I could see Zeke consulting Washu, and it would be interesting to see Beldandy's reaction. She'd probably be horrified at first, and then get that look on her face as she goes stomping off to the nearest mirror while her hand goes for her limiter...
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Just making sure my little issue was fixed, with link sharing. (adds NSFW, but the pic is)
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Quote:Thanks for the help, Bob!
You're welcome!
-- Bob
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Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
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Personally, I think that Sailor Moon would be able to purify the Soul Gems, but would not be able to return them to the girls' bodies. At least, not without making a wish on the Silver Crystal, which has issues of it's own. I see the process that QB put them through as similar to what the Death Busters did in S, but the crystal that is removed is stabilized, meaning it cannot be reinserted into the girl, and the energy that is released is used to grant the girl's wish. I would say that, in this 'verse, QB's people managed to tap into the Ultimate Force with their contracts, which is where the energy that they are harvesting via the girls is coming from.
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*evil laugh*
Journal Entry, August 12, 20xx
Yesterday we finally managed to make everything clear to these girls, and they were -not- pleased. Except for Homura. Gonna have to ask her about it. The only problem was that the detention of Kyubei took a while to happen. Oddly enough, it wasn't because he was a slippery little shit, but because the girls were having their way with him by literally spawn-camping the little bastard. In all the years of my admittedly short life I have never seen anything like it outside of a video game. Almost made me feel sorry for the guy. Almost.
Okay, to try to math this out on a skill sheet: Basically they end up with two different hidden stats. Corruption and Corruption Resistance. When one level ups to a new power tere if their C>CR stat they turn into a Giant Witch. If CR>C, then they unlock new powers and remain their self. Homura aparently has a rather high regeneration rate... so we can logically say that that probably means regeneration rate is linked to CR. C was defeined as an effect of using an incompatable with humans power source... however its also stated they aren't actually possessing human bodies anymore... so regeneration rate is your power forcing your body back to the state mind wants it to be in. When C>CR then your power takes over and makes you into a Giant Witch....in theory this means you could turn back towards a hmuan form on level up, if your human self forced the C power form to. Likely if the Giant Witch form had features that weren't desirable as traits such as if the Giant Witch hit a pack of Magical Girls and they couldn't destroy each other. The GW would shift to a more human form as not getting obliterated when the MG levels up and her C>CR. C declares the GW forms is able to hold off the group... thus the desirable form.
In short I'm basically convinced that the MG and GW are both larval forms of Kyubey's race. Homura is cheating the system as resetting time means that C=0 and CR carries over for her. Add in her contract has determined that Madoka has to survive and the GW Homura is going to be able to obliterate her from the sheer level difference and that Madoka's only way to win is to go GW... thus failing the loop. Basically, Horuma is going to eventually beat this and get to a crazy high skill level. This means Kyubey has a Time Neutral Swiss Energy Bank account or it Doomed and is just as caught up in this as the rest of them.
Okay, without seeing the series and basically going on what is in this thread. If anything is blatantly not true according to the series itself kindly inform me here. If I've failed at logic here inform me.
Anyway, the other issue I see is that we have to decide how far reaching Homura's power are as a matter of distance. The max I can see is one universe. The least just the planet... if it was a smaller area the time discrepancy would have came up in the news by then. As TSAB agents are involved and they are calling in more forces from outside, I'm guessing they've been there at least one loop and are either hovering outside of the AoE or their suddenly repeating reports have tipped off the TSAB. Second loop of 'Err whatism?' means the first group failed and they threw the White Devil at the problem. When that didn't work they decided to get trixy and that is where Mr. Invader (or whoever) comes in,
Zeke has an advantage here, as the Avatar of an Elder God he can end up temporally aware without any major effort. Even if it hits him full on the first time, after that he can operate on planet. Even if the Senshi are stuck with no looping memories Zeke can explain things. It is like the mission parameters covered after all. I'm also sure by the time Zeke gets there having an ally who remembers that last mess. Nothing says quite sanity like getting repeatable confirmation that this isn't all in your head.
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There really isn't anything like leveling in the series, and the only girl with what you termed as CR has it as a side effect of her wish. Any and all uses of magic, including the ones that allow them to move their 'puppet' bodies, incurs a corruption cost. When that corruption meter hits MAX, the girl turns into a witch, no save. Accumulated corruption can be removed by placing it into a Grief Seed, and if a Grief Seed is used when there isn't enough corruption to max it out, it increases the total amount of room for corruption in the Soul Gem, meaning the girl can use more magic before being in danger of turning into a witch.
Also, Homura's power appears to only affect her, not the universe. That is, she is sent backwards in time, not that the universe is resetting and she is the only one who knows. The Norns would almost assuredly be able to determine what is going on with regards to Homura, but this would be rather outside of Raven's area of influence, if I am recalling correctly.
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I think you're misreading Homura's power. She's not rewinding the universe, she's leaping back through time.
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Hrm... Leaping back through time... that would explain why each loop turns out so drastically different from the last - each one is a new parallel universe (and, unfortunately, each failure is a lost cause). In this case, we could say that our story picks up after the failed fifth timeline (aka end of the series - even if it doesn't end that way it won't be a stretch to do an AU that way). This will lend enormous flexibility in accomplishing things like ensuring the survival of all the MG's.
Now, the discussion on corruption... it sounds to me like the crystals that contain the MG's souls retain negative karma in a big way. Is this not true? After all, everything they do seems to have negative-karma associated with it - even living, because once your soul is separated from your body you should be, by all accounts, dead as the proverbial doornail.
Now, Zeke is gonna take that as a challenge, especially since he has learned that the world operates on divine programming code (Domo arigatou, Skuld-sama!) and he has the same view as one of Diane Duane's characters: "There is no program that cannot be debugged, or at worse, rewritten." With their containers rewritten to collect positive karma to keep balance with the negative... then as long as they stick to the green zone of the morality meter they should be fine.
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If that is the case, then they are generating negative karma simply by using magic. Unless magic itself is inherently wrong, which doesn't really jive with the rest of the setting. I think the corruption is more akin to what was happening with Negi, before he gained control of his dark mode. Actually, that works better than I initially thought, as it was stated that if Negi hadn't been able to control himself, he would have become a mindless demon bent on destruction, and would have had to have been put down. Most people don't have what it takes to do what Negi did, and he nearly failed. Plus, I'd imagine the Soul Gems are set up to make it even harder, if not impossible for the girls to catch themselves before they loose themselves.
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I will note that the system has an existing hack. As long as one of these magical girls has a continuing supply of grief seeds to use, and the will to use them, they can keep going indefinitely. All you really need to do is have someone reverse-engineer the grief seeds and figure out how to produce the dumping-off effect without requiring witches to eat people in the process.
Personally, I note a *really* entertaining idea for this. At one point, QB said that he ate used grief seeds because if he didn't, and they kept being used, that could resurrect the witch. Presumably, then, witches can somehow run off of corruption. If you could just bleed off the corruption, then, and use it as the powersource it is... well, it would be interesting to figure out what sort of a thing would take corruption energy and turn it into something useful, but I can't really see Raven being opposed to the whole "warping dark side powers to good uses" schtick.
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Problem: Grief Seeds are the corrupted souls of former magical girls. I'm not saying its impossible to reverse engineer a soul that has been modded by a group that has stated, on record, that they don't quite understand what they are doing, but...
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It's the only method I can imagine for a happy end. and it assumes Homura can carry physical objects with her back when she jumps. If Madoka makes the wish that she dies instantly when she becomes a witch and that her grief seed would have infinite capacity and Homura can carry it back in time. . . .
Okay, no one actually outright negated my theory. I think your just not understanding what I said. CR is reflective of their regeneration rate. Homura just has an insanely high regeneration rate. Which is why I linked CR to regeneration. I also classified regeneration as returning their bodies to their human self's standards. In short, I think your misunderstanding what it is they are regenerating. Lets start off by labeling Regeneration Rate (RR), Regenerarion of Damage Corruption(RDC), Continued Existance Corruption (CEC), Magic Use Corruption (MUC), Other Corruption Factors (OCF). Now lets consider these the factors for determining your Change in Corruption Points (CCP) over any given time period. So mathing this out we get CCP=(RDC+CEC+MUC+OCF)-RR. Homura just has such a crazy high RR that she is prone to gaining negative corruption. They all have CR, Homura just has one that works for her rather than against her.
This actually goes well with the new stuff you guys have revealed and Greif Seeds. Which unless I'm wrong are actually the Soul Gems of Giant Witches. As they can gain enough Corruption points to respawn as a Giant Witch... that means they could in theory gain enough Anticorruption Energy to respawn their Magical Girl self. Of course only Homura appeears to actually generate AE in the first place... at least of the test examples given. If we go back to what I said about MG and GW being the larval forms of QB's race... the real reason KQ ate those Greif Seeds is to fuse them with his own and gain a higher rate of useful CR. This adds the game mechanic that proccessing Corruption generates the EXP, Ability Points, or whatever it is that you use to increase stats and gain abilities. In short, the purpose of this coversion of speicies in the first place is to get young to farm power for the converter. If one manages to survive past infancy, good for them.
By leveling up I mean gaining new attacks and abilities. Even if its more FF2's system of use it and hope you make the percentage role to increase (and not randomly botch for a decrease) of some stat... or gain new abilities.
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I don't think you guy are really thinking about what it means to have Homura only rewind herself from a story perspective. First, she can't be just dimension hopping or the TSAB agents will not be able to track her... negating the plot (or needlessly complicating it). She can't be only rewinding herself through time independant of anyother factors, negating Raven from being able to notice and back up even Zeke's notes (if not Zeke himself). That would involve rewinding the Omniverse... which negates the plot. So she has to have a limited AoE for the rewind. Which means keeping her at a universal (TSAB headquarters baffled by last weeks reports coming in as newish) or just the planet/solar system (TSAB agents, in orbit, get to dodge the effect and advance). This depends on what your having happen to those agents on the world during a reset.. The reason I suggested Zeke mentally looping is you can then actually have things move forward plot wise.
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They don't have a regeneration rate for corruption, and we are shown that it takes active usage of magic to repair HP damage to their bodies. The only known way to remove corruption from a soul gem is to place it into a grief seed. Also, as far as I can tell, Homura has been looping for some time now, and her powers have not changed at all. Her skill with using those powers has increased, but the powers themselves are the same as when she first was granted the wish.
I don't see why Raven would be able to notice the time traveling. As far as I can recall, none of Raven's power relate to time. If any deity were to notice what is going on, it would be the Norns, who represent/are Past, Present and Future. The only other character that I can see noticing Homura is Sailor Pluto, given her powers over time, and that she is the daughter of Chronos. I don't see why Zeke needs to get a copy of the power that Homura sacrificed her soul to obtain, for free. (Not a fan of powers as the plot demands) Instead, could Zeke just give Homura a time travel password, so he'd believe her when she tells him what is going on?
If you don't mind my saying so, and can find the time, I'd suggest watching the episodes, so you have a clearer idea of what is going on. yesy has a good translation.
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Am currently in the middle of trying to get a dual-boot set up, but once Ubuntu and Windows are running stably I'll be sure to DL the eps. Any word on licensing yet?
paladindythe
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blackaeronaut Wrote:Am currently in the middle of trying to get a dual-boot set up, but once Ubuntu and Windows are running stably I'll be sure to DL the eps. Any word on licensing yet? Nope. Licensing is kinda in a tough spot, I imagine. Funimation probably has to digest some of their current stuff first. (And they're probably wondering how it will end...)
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About this whole Homura and corruption discussion, the main question is how can she survive so long, right?
Reading between the lines for episode 10, In the 2nd timeline, she's just using her powers a bit, and probably isn't consuming Grief Seeds very fast. The episode shows the end of the 3rd time line, where her tainted Soul Gem was purified by a Gried Seed that Madoka had stashed.
In the 4th timeline, since Homura has defeated EVERY witch, she could very possibly have a reserve stash of Grief Seeds, especially as she's mastered the use of her powers and uses mundane weapons (that are presumably very cheap to use).
There's a couple of things that aren't quite covered by her time stop power: that during the Walpurgis Night fight in the 4th episode, we see Homura protect herself with an energy shield emitted from her buckler, and in the beginning of the 5th (current) timeline we see her shooting energy bolts at Kyubey. Another example is Homura healing her eyes--improving her body instead of 'merely' repairing damage. This all implies that Puella Magi can grow their skill set.
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Agreed. It probably takes a fair amount of magic to expand their powers, or just to get in enough practice to use the current powers in new ways. ( I have an idea as to how a time stop could be manipulated into a shield, with enough fine control, but that isn't really important.) As you said, she definitely has the grief seeds for it.
I wonder what the full listing of standard powers available to a Puella Magi are. Mami did that thing with the bat, and Kyoko temporarily transformed those binoculars, so its not just combat related stuff, like attacks, binds and healing. Oh, and the telepathy. And all this seems to be before the extra stuff that is dependent on their wish is added on.
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"Youngsters these days just have no appreciation for the magnificence of the legendary cucumber." --Krityan Elder, Tales of Vesperia.
Okay, I've reread the thread and am doing a sum up post. First Jorlem, having a skill point system rather than a fixed level and EXP value 'X' system is still leveling up.
To sum up what is going on QB(et al) shows up. Offers to grant the girls a wish. The wish is granted via the set of powers they get when their bodies are remade and they get a Soul Gem. The soul Gem is basically their core. Every time they do something they build up Corruption. Existing causes corruption to build up. Magic more so. Maxing your Corruption Meter instantly makes you into a Giant Witch. GWs are berserkers or something, their behavior hasn't been discussed here, beyond evil Hulk Smash., with their MG selves powers I'm guessing. This part needs expansion. By collecting Greif Seeds, the SG of those gone GW, you can dump your build up C from your SG to a GS. Extra capacity of the GS is added to yours when you do this, which new posts have said grants your SG more total capacity for C. I'm unclear on that point. Leaving a GS charged with C around will cause it to respawn into a GW.
I think I figured out how this really works, considering that AMG/OMG is in the mix. Simply put they are not tapping the Yggdrasil for power. They are tapping the Nidhogg. When demons use their powers their cast markings bleed waste energy (A.K.A. Corruptiom). MG lack this ability. So they end up as GW, basically, they lack kidneys and get blood poisoning. The GS are used as dialysis machines. They are basically reverse demons.
Demons (and Gods) have off sight back up... their bodies, like the Gods, are complex projections and their self and core are attached to the Nidhogg allowing them to be banish and remember what happened. When they cast spells they channel the Phishcog (I think that is what it is called). The core unit tells the bodies to do so and the body channels the energy from the Nidhogg, directly through their projected bodies and at the target. C bleeds from their facial cast marking creating the creepy feeling energy that marks them as malignant and can desecrate the outside world if enough builds up for long enough. Gods do the same only radiating sweetness and light instead.
MGs are the oppositte, their cores are the thing that channels energy and thus builds up C, which lack the cast marks to pass C as waste product, thus they desecrate their inside world rather than the outside world. Then the completed spell is sent from their core to their projected body and they do magic. Once the corruption Meter is filled it disrupts their SG ro body and their bodies are discarded for one the Corruption likes better. I want to say their selves are in their bodies completing the parralel, but the lack of mentions or knowledge of how much the GW are like their GW selves or if the GW are just all 'RRRRRRRRARRRRRHHGG *insert name here* SMASH!' hampers me on continuing.
Sailor Moon's cast is on a different system than this. The specifics of this are for after this is squared away. This also squares away nicely for why Zeke can help resolve this mess. Disregarding Sailor Moon, Zeke has his avatar markings... giving them a starting point for how to give the MG a way to pass waste.
I want to talk about the Raven restores Zeke from back up / tosses him a cliff notes,cheat sheet diary... but that is another post. Also, how is temporal dickery not an Elder Trickster Gods field of influence?
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