paladindythe
Unregistered
Quote:[b]Necratoid wrote:[/b]
Maxing your Corruption Meter instantly makes you into a Giant Witch. GWs are berserkers or something, their behavior hasn't been discussed here, beyond evil Hulk Smash., with their MG selves powers I'm guessing. This part needs expansion. By collecting Greif Seeds, the SG of those gone GW, you can dump your build up C from your SG to a GS. Extra capacity of the GS is added to yours when you do this, which new posts have said grants your SG more total capacity for C. I'm unclear on that point. Leaving a GS charged with C around will cause it to respawn into a GW.
Okay, when a Soul Gem collects too much corruption, from using too much magic, and/or from giving in to despair the Soul Gem shatters, releasing a corrupted soul, a Witch. Witches are like the Magical Girl's pain and suffering, the things she desired (not her Wish that empowered her). This monster borne of the Magical Girl's pain and suffering seeks to spread it, just as Magical Girls spead light and hope. Witchs exist only as a spirit, and even then they are behind a barrier.
Witches can mark vulnerable people (ones who are prone to depression or anger -- hospitals are fertile ground, for example), and influence them to suicide and murder, which empowers them. If they can gain enough power, they can spawn a Familiar. These familiars are weak reflections of the witch, but they can do the same. If they collect enough power, they can become a copy of the spawning witch, and create more familiars themselves. (Rather like an uncurable plague, if unchecked.)
It's a completely viable (and common!) tactic for a Magical Girl to farm Familiars for Grief Seeds. Sayaka's refusal to do this hurries her demise.
The witch's barrier has Empathic Terrain which reflects both the nature of the witch, and the outside world where the witch is at the moment. Anyone else inside the barrier can slightly affect the surroundings but the effect is subtle at best.
If a magical girl defeats a witch (one with enough power) a Grief Seed is dropped. This Grief Seed is what can absorb the corruption of the Magical Girls. Apparently, (as in it's been discussed, but not shown) have a Grief Seed absorb too much corruption will re-spawn it. If a Magical Girl's Soul Gem breaks (from physical damage, instead of corruption), she dies without turning into a Witch (this is the only proven method to accomplish this so far, with 2 episodes left to go).
Edit: I almost forgot. Mami's wish (to live) gives her exceptional resistance to corruption. Enough that being lonely and depressed didn't darken her Soul Gem, and she's not focused on Grief Seeds, but rather defeating the witches. And she's been at it for a while--several months at least. All of this being said, her gem still darkens after using magic, and in no timeline did she survive Walpurgis Night (but that was due to battle damage, not corruption).
Jorlem: You don't need to reverse-engineer the grief seeds. You just need to reverse-engineer the grief seed interface. Get a grief seed and a magical girl in the same place at the same time with a sufficiency of sensing gear/abilities and have them do their thing. Figure out what the grief seed is doing that lets the magical girl dump corruption into it. Work it from there.
Also - I doubt this has been answered in the show, and it's probably not pertinent to this *particular* fic, but there's an interesting question about the magical economy to be asked. Suppose you're a magical girl who's just defeated a witch and crammed her grief seed full of corruption. Would it be possible to run a profit by letting th seed respawn and killing the witch again without letting the witch negatively affect any of the random nearby people in the meantime? (...assuming you had a sufficiently isolated area)
Posts: 8,933
Threads: 386
Joined: May 2006
Reputation:
3
Sirrocco, I think he was doing that for the benefit of all of us who haven't seen the show yet, himself included. Although you are correct about that approach of scanning the whole process. Fortunately, one of the Senshi happens to specialize on the mage-tech side of things right out of the box.
As for allowing a witch to regenerate... sounds risky. Don't they come back stronger than before when they regenerate? Or is that a wild guess on my part?
Posts: 2,238
Threads: 136
Joined: Dec 2008
Reputation:
0
This is all pure speculation, but I think that if a magical girl 'farmed' the same witch, over and over, it would eventually grow stronger. Not because of some function of the regeneration process, but simply because its despair at not being able to defeat the magical girl would grow, along with it learning the girl's methods of attack.
Also, I don't think that there is anything in the corruption transfer process that is more complex than 'like calls to like'. There is more corruption in the grief seed than the soul gem, so the corruption in the soul gem is pulled over. Again, this is all speculation, but I think it sounds reasonable.
-----
Stand between the Silver Crystal and the Golden Sea.
"Youngsters these days just have no appreciation for the magnificence of the legendary cucumber." --Krityan Elder, Tales of Vesperia.
Posts: 8,933
Threads: 386
Joined: May 2006
Reputation:
3
Hrm... Interesting thought. Grief Seeds actually sound like a sort of seal with the dual-purpose of imprisoning a witch and siphoning off corruption. They could be considered Lost Logia by TSAB and I could easily imagine a few being taken back to Midchilda to study after they'd been properly sealed.
Posts: 2,238
Threads: 136
Joined: Dec 2008
Reputation:
0
I think that that could be true, from a certain point of view. The Grief Seeds are to a Witch what Soul Gems are to Puella Magi, so I'm not sure imprison is quite the right word, give that QB says the Soul Gems are the girls. Of course, it could easily be argued that the girls are imprisoned in the Soul Gems, so like I said, point of view.
I wonder what would happen if one were to break a Grief Seed. Breaking a Soul Gem kills the girl instantly, and prevents them from becoming a witch, so would breaking a Grief Seed kill the witch permanently, by destroying what is left of the former Puella Magi's soul?
-----
Stand between the Silver Crystal and the Golden Sea.
"Youngsters these days just have no appreciation for the magnificence of the legendary cucumber." --Krityan Elder, Tales of Vesperia.
Posts: 8,933
Threads: 386
Joined: May 2006
Reputation:
3
Maybe, but would you want to crack open something that's got that much toxic negative energy inside it? There's gotta be some sort of consequence fir that,
paladindythe
Unregistered
Jorlem Wrote:I think that that could be true, from a certain point of view. The Grief Seeds are to a Witch what Soul Gems are to Puella Magi, so I'm not sure imprison is quite the right word, give that QB says the Soul Gems are the girls. Of course, it could easily be argued that the girls are imprisoned in the Soul Gems, so like I said, point of view.
I wonder what would happen if one were to break a Grief Seed. Breaking a Soul Gem kills the girl instantly, and prevents them from becoming a witch, so would breaking a Grief Seed kill the witch permanently, by destroying what is left of the former Puella Magi's soul? You're forgetting about Familiars, that don't even have a Grief Seed yet. My guess is that a Grief Seed is a larval form of a Witch, one that's about ready to became a familiar. As for breaking it, it could just release the familiar...
Greif Seeds can't actually be Lost Logia... they are easily replicated. Neither would Soul Gems... the Lost Logia whatever makes the Soul Gems.
Its not that the Puella Magi are imprisoned in their Soul Gem or that they themselves are their Soul Gems... its tht the Soul Gems are their new real bodies. This answers my question about where their self is (the destruction before converting thing) and makes me more certain that relative to DSKS that they are reverse demons. If we look at the Soul Gem's self destructing as an issue of pressure release, Myth Busters proved that over pressured water heaters make anti material projectiles, the issue is pressure release. So your solution is to stop the pressure build up problem. This means in the short term bleeding off the pressure, which is what GS are used for. The long term solution would be to stop the build up from happening in the first place.
As I mentioned before, they need some thing that acts like cast markings in AMG/OMG, the main problem is that SG and GS are fragile. Drilling a hole will shatter it... and the cast marking equivalents would need to be on the SG's themselves. You can transfer by osmosis... but that leaves you with reliing on a a limited use product... the production of which is a large part of the problem of the GWs... which means stopping the production of PMs... or altering SGs so they can't turn into GW... without smashing them all or otherwise killing them all. Homura's wish as I understand it is worded so it can trigger a loop reset in five minutes or in 80,000 years. Glee for the Draconian way to solve the issue.
The other ossmosis method is to toss the SG/GS into holy water. Which will make it go boom. Being infernally based magic and all good enough for GS, but fail on SGs. Though with two priests and the SRLJ around making said holy watter would be cake.
So the next method I can think of is to make a device that will drain off the Corruption and dispose of it. A good way would be to make a Corruption/Anti-Corruption reactor and attach the SG and something to drain the Corruption into... then use the obliterating effect to power a device. In short, use the avaiable tech from DSKS, TSAB, and Moon Kindgdom MagiTech to make the equivalent of an intelligent device with a meat body projection. Its simple enough at that point to either make the device the size of a Babbage Computer running a lan party for 20 people and/or make it so the PM can physically inter act with their own extended core.
Then after a few tech revs, you can have them more and more mobile and the devices themselves more portable until they end up as some odd cross between an intelligent device and a Knight of the Book. There can be a trade off in that they can't maintain a body while their neo-core is in jewlery or combat weapon mode. Plenty of room to muck about with... and as this involves Zeke, a Whispered with training in MagiTech, divine magic, whatever he can get his hands on magic, with Skuld tutoring... its easy to say the kit bashing is so extreme and convoluted that they end up in Zeke's care as he is the only one that can make heads or tails of it. (Zeke would is combining Infernal, Divine, Arcane etc... magics and that is going to leave the TSAB a system or three behind... I'm sure their command structure would love to see taking up priesthood as legitimate field of study as iffy. Lack of Scienciness and all.)
This will allow them as inherited items for Zeke's family, use them as a cautionary tale and have them be around... use them for later stories et al.. You can temper it by having Zeke need to get part from TSAB.
Posts: 8,933
Threads: 386
Joined: May 2006
Reputation:
3
That's a pretty keen idea, Necratoid. We could make them more like the Wolkenritter Knights. Lessee, mage-tech corruption reactor, throw in a Midchildan co-processor to help handle the maths (smart, anticipates needs based on previous experience by pre-caching spells on the fly, but not a true AI), and must take the form of boom-stick suitable to persona and style. Bonus: can be safely tucked away into a retrievable other-space pocket for safe keeping when not needed to whoop-ass.
Just started watching the series and I already know Mami's is gonna be the BFG from Hell.
Posts: 2,238
Threads: 136
Joined: Dec 2008
Reputation:
0
@paladindythe: You're right, I had forgotten about the familiars. This will require some thought. Let me get back to you on this.
...
*Does some rewatching*
...
In episode 9, Homura says that when a Soul Gem turns into a Grief Seed, it gives birth to a Witch and is destroyed. And Mami said that Witches sometimes are carrying Grief Seeds, which implies that a Witch doesn't always have one. Finally, the Grief Seeds are also called a Witch's egg, which fits with it being destroyed when the Witch hatches. So, my current hypothesis is that Witches reproduce by one of two ways: concentrating negativity taken from its victims into a new Grief Seed, which hatches when filled, or by splitting off familiars from its own power, which do the same thing, but are weaker and more numerous. When a Puella Magic takes an incomplete Seed from a dead Witch, she can place her own corruption in it, continuing the process of filling it up. I think a familiar wouldn't have enough power to create a Grief Seed until it reaches critical mass, when it would collapse the negative power that it is made of together with the power it has gathered, creating a new Grief Seed, allowing it to be reborn as a Witch.
(Major character development spoilers ahead, not just world building, so be warned)
As for the reactor/Intelligent Device thing, whether that works is up to you BA, but I think there's another question that we've been neglecting. Would any of the Puella Magi actually want to go through with it? I can't really see any of the girls being willing to let these complete strangers muck around with their Soul Gems, especially after the truth of what the Soul Gems truly are comes out. Besides having been burned on a 'too good to be true' deal before, each of the magical girls has their own reasons that they might not want to continue on like that. The way things are as of episode 10, I think that Homura would rather commit suicide than live on like that, attached to a Device/ Reactor once it is assured that Madoka is safe, and the loop is broken. Mami, well, we've seen what happens to her when she finds out about the Witch transformation. Sayaka will probably be the one that reveals that the witch transformation can occur, and once it reaches that point, I think Sailor Moon's magic would just destroy her like it does monsters of the week, as Sayaka isn't aware enough to desire purification, or possibly is too corrupted to desire it. If Sayaka is offered it, I think she might be the only one with a chance of accepting, though her self loathing at that point would cause problems of its own. Kyouko made a conscious decision to live only for herself, and is explicitly disillusioned with the sort of magical girl shown in tv shows, that lives selflessly and tries to help others.
-----
Stand between the Silver Crystal and the Golden Sea.
"Youngsters these days just have no appreciation for the magnificence of the legendary cucumber." --Krityan Elder, Tales of Vesperia.
paladindythe
Unregistered
Well, you could always play some looping games of your own as well. Maybe we're a few loops past what's been shown in the show (so you can create your own chain of events), and in a previous loop, our heroes made contact with Homura, allowing for her to work with them in the current loop.
This allows a whole bunch of "I did what?!" moments as well as allowing Homura to level up some more if needed. This would be a bith to work out, though, as you have to work backwards from the 'solution' to figure out the story, and then only show hints how it all happened until Homura can be coaxed into explaining.
Edit: I have a fondness for the mysterious way this show reveals the time loop. The traditional way would be what's show in the 10th episode, where you show one person's trek through the loops like Groundhog Day. Here, the audience slowly gets more and more hints that this has happened, and has a lot of fun guessing the details.
Posts: 25,492
Threads: 2,060
Joined: Feb 2005
Reputation:
12
Necratoid Wrote:Greif Seeds can't actually be Lost Logia... they are easily replicated. ISTR that Raising Heart was originally a Lost Logia, but that was easily replicated...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Posts: 8,933
Threads: 386
Joined: May 2006
Reputation:
3
I do plan on having Zeke and company run for a few loops - it's the perfect excuse for making sure that everything goes right. As for how...
It was wrong... all wrong! There was just no way for me to have guessed that things were this fucked up, and now we were all going to die.
"I guess it cannot be helped," sighed Homura. "I'll have to start all over again. Next time I guess I should trust you."
"WHAT?" I cried out in outraged shock as I turned to Homura. "Are you saying that you're stuck in a TIME-LOOP!?"
"Ah... yes?"
"No wonder TSAB can't figure this out. Homura, this is very important. I need you to drop your mental shields for a moment."
"Why?"
"You said that you'll trust me next time? Then trust me now!"
Homura was confused, but blinked as she realized that I she probably had little to lose at this point and nodded. She then closed her eyes and composed herself, seeking her calm center in the midst of the dark storm around us. As I felt her mind go slack, I approached her, gently grasping her head between my hands and placing my forehead to hers. She only had enough time to make a startled squeak before she was in my mindscape.
she didn't have much time to enjoy the scenery because an invisible force grabbed her by the lapels and dragged her through the air, into the Library, and did not stop until she reached the central kiosk where I was at, scribbling furiously into a new book with a feather quil.
"I am going to give you this book," I said, not taking my eyes off my work, "and you are going to keep it safe until you see me again. This is a copy of my memories and it will carry everything I've learned up to now. When this loop resets you will email me at this address." I slid forward a sheet of paper with an email address and Homura reached for it, hesitantly. "Take it!" I urged her.
Homura hesitated once more and took the sheet. Immediately it dissolved and Homura gasped. "I... I know your email address!"
"Good. In the message, you will make the subject heading, 'The Raven casts no shadows, save over his enemies.' That is a pass-phrase that tells me that you need my assistance and a friend of mine trusts you enough for me to trust you, too. Simply tell me the name of your world and where I can find you. When we meet, tell me that it is too complicated to put into words. I'll do this again and then you'll present me with this book. I'll recognize it as being mine and take it, then I will know everything that has happened."
"Will this really work?" asked Homura as I finished by signing my name with a flourish and jabbed one of my fingers with the quill I was using, sealing the book with a drop of blood.
"Without a doubt. Here, take the book."
"What will happen?"
"Not quite the same thing as the email address. This is sealed so it will only react to me, but it will know that you're trusted. You can read my memories of my time here if you want to and you may gain a better insight of what's going on."
"I... I understand." Homura took the book and it, too, dissolved. She blinked in confusion and said, "That is a weird sensation."
"It's only until I get here. Now leave. If the reset occurs with us connected like this, then not even Raven knows what will happen."
With that, the connection broke. Homura opened her eyes and she had an expression of grim determination. And then I knew nothing more.
Posts: 2,238
Threads: 136
Joined: Dec 2008
Reputation:
0
Ok, so based on the existence of Zeke's as yet unalluded to mental powers, and contact with the TSAB, I'm guessing that this takes place much deeper in the timeline than we've seen so far. I'm just wondering, does it take place before, during, or after the events of Sailor Moon S, or this timeline's equivalent? Because I'd like to see Pluto's reaction to finding out about Homura's time stop power, seeing as she has to die to do the same thing.
Oh dear. A thought just occured to me. Hotaru as a Puella Magi.
-----
Stand between the Silver Crystal and the Golden Sea.
"Youngsters these days just have no appreciation for the magnificence of the legendary cucumber." --Krityan Elder, Tales of Vesperia.
Posts: 8,933
Threads: 386
Joined: May 2006
Reputation:
3
After the complete story line. This is going to be one of those things where we get to see Zeke and Company Do Their Thing with Zeke as a fully sanctioned Avatar (2nd Class, Special Duty, Unlimited) operating his own troubleshooting squad. Got the licensing info here: http://ohmygoddess.wikia.com/wiki/License
As for his mental powers, it's pretty much the same thing he does with Luna in Chapter 2... only this was a bit more forceful.
Posts: 2,238
Threads: 136
Joined: Dec 2008
Reputation:
0
Ah, I had forgotten about the bit with Luna. Its been a while since I read that. I'll have to go and reread later. ·
So, when you say that its after the complete story line, I'm guessing that you mean its post-Galaxia? Bit of a pity its not happening during S, in my opinion. There are enough similarities between what we've seen QB do, and what the Death Busters could do, that a decent case could be made for the Death Busters using a much older version of the magitech that QB uses. (It[s been a long time since I've seen/read any material regarding the Galaxia arc, but I think she might have done something similar as well.) Also, at that point, wouldn't Usagi be something of an elephant in the room? Given the amount of purifying power she can and is willing to bring to bear post series, especially when dealing with enemies powered by corruption, she might be able to short circuit huge swaths of the plot. I mean, she was able to take on Galaxia by herself in canon. The Walpurgis Night wouldn't really pose much of a threat to her at that point.
-----
Stand between the Silver Crystal and the Golden Sea.
"Youngsters these days just have no appreciation for the magnificence of the legendary cucumber." --Krityan Elder, Tales of Vesperia.
Posts: 25,492
Threads: 2,060
Joined: Feb 2005
Reputation:
12
Jorlem Wrote:There are enough similarities between what we've seen QB do, and what the Death Busters could do, that a decent case could be made for the Death Busters using a much older version of the magitech that QB uses. http://drunkardswalkforums.yuku.com/rep ... eply-78812]Ninja'd...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Posts: 2,238
Threads: 136
Joined: Dec 2008
Reputation:
0
robkelk Wrote:Jorlem Wrote:There are enough similarities between what we've seen QB do, and what the Death Busters could do, that a decent case could be made for the Death Busters using a much older version of the magitech that QB uses.
Ninja'd... *Facepalms*. I had completely forgotten about that. It really does work though, doesn't it. At least I added something new, that they are using older versions of the technology. I think it could be said that QB's creators retired the Pharaoh line when they discovered that it was more efficient to do the magical girl -> witch conversion than to drain off the whole planet at once with the Silence. Magical girls are a renewable resource after all, planets, not so much.
Also, any thoughts on a possible connection between Hotaru Tomoe and Mami Tomoe?
Edit:
You know, if you want, you could use the S arc to introduce the Senshi and Zeke to the existence of Puella Magi, and leave off showing the horrible truth behind them until much later. I would suggest using Mami, as she was a Puella Magi for some time before Homura started looping, and doesn't need nearly as many grief seeds, which would clue in the Senshi and Zeke that something is up. If you decide to go with it, you could have QB explain the organizational arrangement of Daimon ~Witch~Mistress~Pharaoh, and that they all vanished shortly before the first recorded modern Witches appeared. During S, it would just seem to the Senshi and Zeke that the Puella Magi are just another odd type of magic user, like the Senshi themselves, or those in the TSAB. Mami could even warn them not to seek out other Puella Magi, as most of them seem to be territorial jerks.
-----
Stand between the Silver Crystal and the Golden Sea.
"Youngsters these days just have no appreciation for the magnificence of the legendary cucumber." --Krityan Elder, Tales of Vesperia.
paladindythe
Unregistered
I lik youre scene there, but I'd rather see the story begin with an email..
Posts: 8,933
Threads: 386
Joined: May 2006
Reputation:
3
Hrrrrrmmmm... I still havn't sat through all of Sailor Moon yet... and I've only gotten through Ep 3 of Madoka. Once I get there, though, I'll come to a final decision on how to fit this in. My main qualm is that the central story line may be too busy to fit this in.
As for the scene, that is just at the end of the first chapter. The story will actually begin with an email... only it will be a summons from TSAB once they notice that something screwy is going on.
Question: How much should Nanoha, Fate and others be involved? By the end of the storyline proper, we should have concluded A's.
paladindythe
Unregistered
blackaeronaut Wrote:Hrrrrrmmmm... I still havn't sat through all of Sailor Moon yet... and I've only gotten through Ep 3 of Madoka. Once I get there, though, I'll come to a final decision on how to fit this in. My main qualm is that the central story line may be too busy to fit this in.
As for the scene, that is just at the end of the first chapter. The story will actually begin with an email... only it will be a summons from TSAB once they notice that something screwy is going on.
Question: How much should Nanoha, Fate and others be involved? By the end of the storyline proper, we should have concluded A's. That's a tough question, becuase while they can be brought in for witch smiting, they'll be of limited use against QB, right? So their role should be roughly equivalent to close air support, IMO.
Posts: 8,933
Threads: 386
Joined: May 2006
Reputation:
3
paladindythe Wrote:blackaeronaut Wrote:Question: How much should Nanoha, Fate and others be involved? By the end of the storyline proper, we should have concluded A's. That's a tough question, becuase while they can be brought in for witch smiting, they'll be of limited use against QB, right? So their role should be roughly equivalent to close air support, IMO. IMHO, one can never have too much CAS. Or at least that's a very rare case. In this case, it sounds like Nanoha and Fate will do nicely - plenty of daka, just the right numbers, and surgical strike capability. Plus, Arf's ability with barriers will be indispensable.
One way we can assure ourselves that the loop has to be reset is that when Zeke arrives, he is by himself because the TSAB report grossly underestimates the situation - it calls for mere observation and intelligence gathering. After Zeke reclaims his memories in the second loop, he'll call a full stop on TSAB's observation and enact a full-blown intervention. Which may not go right the first try or two, either, given the nature of Homura's wish.
I was always of the opinion that a single properly informed magical girl candidate could fix the underlying problem of the Soul Gem mechanics with a properly worded wish. Something along the lines of "I wish that Soul Gems from this point on will automatically transfer their corrupted energy to the Incubator that facilitated their extraction without the need for Grief Seeds in a way that is neither harmful to the magical girl, nor allows any possibility of them inadvertently becoming a witch."
This frees the Puella Magi from dependence on Grief Seeds, but still gets Kyubei his corruption energy, so he would be likely to grant it.
Posts: 8,933
Threads: 386
Joined: May 2006
Reputation:
3
Scrambler Wrote:This frees the Puella Magi from dependence on Grief Seeds, but still gets Kyubei his corruption energy, so he would be likely to grant it. This may be so, but Kyubei must be punished. Blue and Orange Morality (DANGER: TV Tropes link!) is no excuse, either. What's worse, Kyubei makes no attempt to understand. In fact, if what I've heard is true, he even mocks human emotions by saying he doesn't understand them and steamrolls over anyone else's feelings.
EDIT: If anything, Kyubei strikes me as being more the Evil Cannot Comprehend Good type of villain.
|
