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ClassicDrogn Wrote:Honestly, I'm not sure what I meant by that, at this point. I know I wasn't intending to insult or belittle your position, RF - but was very tired and don't see what chains of thought would have produced the statements, aside from the Wizarding World as presented being not worth saving, even if a few of the inhabitants were. It duplicates enough of the flaws of real life for that conclusion to be inevitable.
- CD, would be all for human extinction if not for an exceptional few worthwhile people he's encountered This is why we need to invent interdimensional travel, so we can all move to the moon.
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Okay... this is getting to silly levels of revisionism here.... what did Harry do by 15?
-Book 1) Harry jumps monster 3 times his height or more... a dozen times or so his weight... that resists magic from war mages. Granted Ron drops the thing... but that is the kind of heroics that heros do for their girlfriends and princesses... not for random know-it-all that you idiot pal mocked. So even ignoring the rest of book1... So Harry wrestles a full blown troll at 11 years old. He also basically wins by knock out. He also became the younger seeker in a century by merit.
-Book 2) Harry kills a 1000 year old dooms day device... melee. with a sword that you can't even use unless your being heroic and pimp slapping fear out of the way to get things done. This is literally how the sword works... and it delivers/ Then he ignored having a hand sized tooth through his arm.. you know the one filling him with one of the most toxic substances in existance... and instead of curling up and dieing he then pulls it out of his arm and off the big boss with it. This is so hard core heroic Conan would offer him an apprentiship on the spot... Harry even killed a evil wizard AND a giant snake. Plus Harry has that cool animal companion helping him. Harry, age 12.
-Book 3: Kicks time in the groin to right a wrong and save an innocent life from execusion.. Smacks around a hoard of over a hundred soul eating demons... with one shot. Harry age 13.
-Book 4: Out flies a dragon mother in full blown 'protect the nest' mode... stealing one of her 'eggs' in the process... in front of a few hundred witnesses and the press. Saved a girl from drowning from someeone else's mistake. Effectively wins an international sporting tournament that was being used as an assassination attempt... even survives the 'bonus' round. Harry Age 14.
-Book 5: Trains dozens of people in self defense while fighting a corrupt government. At age 15, even people that think him insane respect his skills enough to train him better than the people they are paying to do exactly this.
Yes... being able to turn into a rat is so much more impressive.
Also, as your insisting only 'classic'/tragic' heros count... Why isn't being 'too lazy to train' Harry's fatal flaw again?
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So Harry's a badass. (Are we sure his family name is Potter, and not Callahan?) But is he a hero?
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Not helping your case there, Rob.
Can't people just agree to disagree? (Since when has arguing on the Internet ever accomplished anything, anyway?)
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Quote:Not helping your case there, Rob.
Can't see why - "badass" and "hero" may overlap, but neither is a subset of the other.
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Harry, as Necratoid pointed out, does fit the classical definition of hero for the first five books. I do notice, though, that you did not list anything for books five and six, which is the time when he should be fighting the main villain. This, I think is what tends to color people's opinions of Harry so much. When he should have been confronting Voldemort, he took too long, and when he finally did, he won because of an improbable series of lucky coincidences. (Him surviving the Killing Curse again, Voldemort deciding not bring the body back to Hogwarts with him intact, and especially the Elder Wand mastery thing. If anyone had defeated Draco before Harry, which wasn't unlikely, the whole thing wouldn't have worked, and if Voldemort had decided that it would more demoralizing for the defenders to see Harry's head on a pike, well, that's that.)
Part of the problem as I see it was that Rowling had Voldemort make so many horcruxes. The reason that I think most villains don't usually have more than one or two soul keystones is because it is usually boring to tell a story about a scavenger hunt, and so the hero can dramatically destroy it in front of the villain. Personally, I think Rowling should have had someone give a prophecy containing vague clues to the horcruxes, so at least we as readers can see that they aren't wandering aimlessly, watch them struggle to figure out the clues, and fall into traps because of misinterpretations, instead of wandering into them based on a hunch.
As it was, the last two books, where Harry should have been reaching the top of his game, and being the hero we had seen hints of in the earlier books, instead had Harry trusting everything to faith and luck, and winning because of that, and not anything he intentionally did. When most people think of the question: "Was Harry a hero?", their minds will jump to what is usually a hero's defining moment, when he faces down his greatest foe, which unfortunately was a moment when Harry completely failed, and only won due to sheer luck. He didn't even try to use any sort of spell,which if not for his luck regarding the whole wand mastery thing, which was introduced earlier that book and had never even been alluded to prior to that as best I can recall, would have resulted in his death, and Voldemort's victory.
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I'm willing to budge on the troll incident first year - he heard about a problem, acted to prevent/fix it, and carried the day with luck, guts, and a good share of the crazy awesome (giant super-strong monster? JUMP ON IT'S BACK AND WRASSLE!) for no benefit but the moral, and to an extent when he rescued Gabrielle in 4th year, since he believed that the hostages were in real danger and again had no benefit for doing so or penalty for minding his own business except being able to look himself in the mirror, but even against the basilisk it was a matter of following other people's nudges and not acting until forced (yes, Ron's sister needing rescuing counts as being forced, if he blew it off like Lockhart he'd have lost both his freinds, inspired loads of retribution from the Twins, and the school would have been closed forcing him to stay with the Durleys all the time) and the only way through was forward, with help from various magical McGuffins he had no part in creating. So... basically what Jorlem said, only running back a few more years.
- CD
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Your argument is that King Arther fails utterly at being a hero... because Merlin existed.
Specifically your argument is Harry is not hero... Hero no get help from anyone... ignore the Argonauts forever.
Heros of course have never ever used magical items they didn't create personally.
Ignoring that I said Harry gets more hero credit for his actions after he offs the snake.... character is who you are alone in the dark. The other not a hero argument is Harry won only through dumb 'luck'. The luck being that Harry was the master of the Death's equipment. To believe that is to ignore Dumbledore. Dumbledore flat out set that up to happen. He used his own death (immanent as is was) to set up a Xanotose roulette. The want was Draco's... thus not the Dark Lord who failed to read the instruction manual. Harry inherited the cloak and send Harry on a quest for the ring. He sent Hermione the book with the legend in it.
The thing is that I don't think Dumbledore could figure out another plan... he was on a life span countdown. He learned Harry was the final horcrux... and there are only so very few things that can destroy those... and lobotmizing himself with a sword is stupid... fiend firing your own brain is right out. Basically, Dumbledore was reduced to killing off Harry with some method he could recover from and Dumbledore knew were the set was. Dumbledore basically had one item for a decade, one for half a century, and made himself terminal with the third. To paraphrase the Natural Enemy of All Who Live... if you have even a 1% chance of victory... take it. That it required Harry to be depressed and screwed up in the head to take it was unavoidable, as far as Dumbledore could tell. If he hadn't made himself terminal he may have come up with something better... but no. He had to wear the shining ring with uncursing it first.
Seriously, Rowling wrote a pretty much by the numbers hero legend and your calling him not a hero for it. I pose to you.... What are the details (the defining essence) of a Hero if not Harry Potter and not King Arther? Someone tell me what this 'Hero' thing Harry isn't is. Your definition of a 'Hero' is a Gloobleflarg... fix that or this topic is gibberish.
Also, I didn't leave out stuff after 5th year for giggles... I was responding to the Harry did nothing impressive like all these other characters by age 15. I'm sorry if you forgot the previous posts I was responding to.
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Except Dumbledore's plan wasn't for Harry to become the Master of Death, it was to die by Snape's hand without a fight, which he hoped would break the power of the Elder Wand, thus ensuring that it's power never fell into the hands of Voldemort or any other Dark Lord in the future.
And I still say that it was luck that no one defeated Draco in the year he was technically master of the Elder Wand. If Bellatrix, for example, had decided to attack Draco, and Draco went for his wand, that would have been enough to give mastery of the Wand to Bellatrix. It's how he got it from Dumbledore, after all. How could Dumbledore have foreseen that that wouldn't happen?
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I'm actually not familiar enough with Arthurian legend to reply on that count, did he have Merlin leaving a trail of crumbs to follow and only act when presed into it? If so, then no, he's not a hero either.
Actually defining the traits of heroism sounds like a better course... My contension is that to really be a hero, you:
a) Notice a crisis of danger/injustice/etc. without having your nose rubbed in it.
b) Strive to gain the skills/strength/etc. needed to redress such problems, usually at least partly proactively but not necessarily since responding to a crisis is part of the defining features.
c) Actually do something about the problem, without having to be driven to the wall before you act.
d) Succeed in making a difference even if fully rectifying it is impossible.
The only one of these that you can even argue HP vaguely fits outside the troll incident and 2nd Task is D, and then only when you consider Voldemort himself rather than the social factors that produced him as the problem. Why and how he fails at the above was the basis of my argument from the first post.
- CD
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I'd like to point out, if you define hero using that definition, Hercules doesn't really qualify, nor do quite a few others.
Merriam-Webster defines the word 'hero' thusly:
Quote:a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability
b : an illustrious warrior
c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities
d : one who shows great courage
Under definitions A and B, it doesn't matter if you don't take initiative yourself (most of Hercules's great deeds were assigned to him as Tasks), just that you can do things that would be nearly impossible for others. For those, Harry does qualify, up until the end, when his victories did not derive from his own power, but from his sheer luck, for reasons I have outlined previously. For D, Harry does quailfy, but theoretically, so should everybody in Gryffindor. For C, there's the question of how much of his achievments are his own, and who is defining what exactly constitutes a noble quality, as that has changed over history.
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Herr Bad Moon
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ClassicDrogn Wrote:a) Notice a crisis of danger/injustice/etc. without having your nose rubbed in it.
b) Strive to gain the skills/strength/etc. needed to redress such problems, usually at least partly proactively but not necessarily since responding to a crisis is part of the defining features.
c) Actually do something about the problem, without having to be driven to the wall before you act.
d) Succeed in making a difference even if fully rectifying it is impossible.
SAVING GINNY WEASLEY IN THE CHAMBER OF SECRETS
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Jorlem - A lot of old Greek (or old any other culture) heroes aren't very heroic by modern standards because the standards have changed, as you pointed out regarding Webster definition C. Even in different cultures in the world today, one group's hero may be another group's villain.
ClassicDrogn - I would agree that a character with qualities B,C, and D from your list are necessary for what I would consider a satisfying hero in a work of fiction. Failing to meet A is excusable as a rocky start as long as the character grows and finishes strong in the areas of doing something that makes a difference in the end.
Herr Bad Moon - It's the "in the end" part that's driving this thread. In the early books, Harry is fairly heroic. As the series goes on he gets less proactive and effective until, at the end, the things that do get dealt with are dealt with because of:
a) Prophecy
b) Things his mother did
c) Things other people set up (without expecting him to survive)
d) Sheer luck
e) A dark lord who's just not right in the head, possibly due to all the soul-splitting and resurrection
To paraphrase a quote I posted earlier, he wins through a noble sacrifice and a lot of luck. The sacrifice is indeed noble, but that and luck are things you should fall back on only when you run out of other options and he doesn't seem to have explored his options very much. The character of Harry Potter works as a hero in the sub-arcs, but at least from a satisfying storytelling standpoint things go downhill in the last third of the overall story. This may be some sort of deliberate subversion on the part of Rowling, but I don't think I care for that sort of realism in my escapist fantasy.
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Chamber of secrets?
A: FAIL. Harry has his nose rubbed repeatedly in the snake problems before doing anything, not to mention how much the bookstore scene reeked of a set-up.
B: FAIL. Harry uses a skill imparted by the voldeshard, a magic sword that is as literal a deus ex machina as possible given that it actually dropped out of nowhere onto his head, an enchanted object someone else made that summoned the sword without telling him about it, and someone else's magical pet. When it comes to researching things that could be petrifying people he sometimes keeps his prosthetic brain company in the library, or while she's brewing polyjuice potion.
C: addressed previously, short form is he does nothing until driven to the wall. Actually pulling the fang out of his arm and stabbing the diary is the only reason this entire episode is even worthy of debate, because he is doing that purely in the hope of saving Ginny's life when he's sure it's too late to matter to his.
D: Okay, yes, once the magical pet is done getting rid of it's most dangerous quality he manages to flail the deus ex machina into position and stab the damn snake, if only through luck. Likewise, the day is saved, in the end, but 50% is not a passing grade on the hero test.
- CD, suspects we're approaching the critical mass at which a thread collapses into a ball of black and blood red fire, that consumes all and leaves nought but desolation in its wake
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It's less the fight itself that makes him heroic in that book, and more the fact that he was present at all. By that point, he knew what was down there, and knew he didn't have any chance at stopping the snake if it went after him, but he still made the choice to go down there anyway. And then, when the person he was depending on to actually deal with the beast (as far as Harry knew at that point, Lockhart had made a career out of dealing with things like that, even if he was a git) turned on them, and left Harry on his own, he still decided to walk into the inner chamber. It's because of that that I'd say he was heroic then, and that's also incidentally the reason that the sword was able to fall on his head in the first place.
As for the monster slaying, he was a twelve year old wizard who didn't have a wand against a 1000 year old, nigh invulnerable snake, and a spellcaster that basically has a cheat enabled that lets him cast, but ensures that nothing can hit him. There's no way to pull that off without some sort of massive contrivance.
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I'm inclined to be more charitable on the Chamber of Secrets since he's 12 at that point. Unfortunately, he doesn't quite grow into the role and dispense with the mentor-provided training wheels as he gets older.
For something that might be heroic by CD's standards, how about getting Dobby out from under the Malfoys? The ploy with the diary and the sock is all Harry and not something he could have pulled of at any earlier point.
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Actually, even if it's a really minor thing, maybe even because of it, the bit with Dobby is another good counter-example, and having Dobby come in to bust them out of Malfoy Manor in DH is one of the few times I'm not counting having someone else give him a boost against him, becasue if nothing else that bit qualifies Dobby as a ... not sidekick exactly, but ... I think 'boon companion' is how they tend to put it in fantasy works, though that doesn't quite feel right either. Suffice it to say, he'd put the plot development work in to 'deserve' a hand up from Dobby, espescially when it has such a degree of symmetry in freeing each other from the Malfoys.
In the chamber, after Lockhart turned on them though - Harry was on the inside side of the rockslide. He could either sit there and quiver while waiting for the snake to come eat him, or go forward and maybe succeed - no path but forward, once again his back's to the wall before he gets active about it.
- CD
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So can I get a short list of people who actually qualify as heros? So far I only can thing of the guy from Atlas Shrugged (which I've never read) and a deranged Player Character that does everything him/her because of the attrition rate of party members.
Also, I've noted twice now that it is after the beast is slain that Harry does the really heroic bit. You know... shrugging off the dieing in hidious melting pain and snuffing out the infested diary?
Well the point about him going after the beast in the first place as well... but before that point it was largely a kind of annoying... but not really dangerous. It made noise and stasised people and made Hagrid look badish. However it was perfectly content sleep for its entire existence. The snake is a midboss at best, but more a tool with unrequited munchies. The villian was the soul eating literature... and that is the thing that Harry death matched.
Oddly enough the 1000 year old Death Beast was a tool made by someone else...if we take the your idea that a hero must never use items made by anyone else... then Riddle isn't a villian for doing that. Hell, the snake and the sword are two versions of the same exact item! Just from different house creators... both are tools... both run on the qualities of their House founder. The Sword isn't a de'ex machinia... its an entirely valid counter measure... but the snake and the sword are tools not the hero and the villain.
The Book of Voldie 'died' by the 'dagger' strike from Harry... I'm pretty sure an improvised weapon made from breaking off part of a legendary monster lodged in your arm after slaying it... and stabbed through the heart of your enemy counts as making your own equipment anyway.
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Honor Harrington pretty much bangs right along all my criteria and so does the more recent supporting character Victor Cachat, but I'm actuallty having trouble thinking of another who isn't iffy myself. If it'd ended at the Gaara rescue arc, I'd have said Haruno Sakura, but she's been shuffled off to the margins again ever since. Naruto himself now that he's (in a more literal than usual way) made the fox's power his own instead of just letting it take over when he gets in a tight spot is pretty well in there. Sasuke would be, except he's a villain. Hermione fits the bill. If his 7th year was actually on camera, Neville probably would have too, and Ginny.
I'm realising just how tightly I've focused my reading/etc. lately... It's been so long since I read anything but fanfic, I'm haviong trouble remembering the details of old favorite characters.
Ranma, not. Never does anything unless forced or in pure self interest, he''s more like a cat. Just don't tell him I said so.
Mowgli (the orignal literary version) qualifies pretty well I think.
the Ghostbusters (original) did pretty well, taken as a team. The only thing in their way is that they're doing it as a business, but soldiers, police, and firefighters all get paid too, and just acting in the line of duty are apt to fill out the list.
As to using tools - I never said a hero had to make all their own gear, just that having an I Win button handed to them without working for it is not heroic. You know, researching and questing for the Sword of Plot Resoltion, finally wresting it from the jaws of a ravenous guardian electro-zombie space dinosaur, rather than stubbing your toe on it. Harry using the snake fang is valid becasue he fought the sanke to get it, even if the snake was just an artificially bred tool.
Meh. The rest of your argument just makes me froth and want to say you're making the things I said say something else, which means it's time to declare a victory and move on as internet debates go.
- CD, You win. I win. We win! Someone call Pinkie Pie, it's time for a victory party!
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I'm guessing your not kidding about be sending you into frothing fits of insanity... you just managed to invalidate everything you have said about heros in one line.
Quote:Sasuke would be, except he's a villain
You think that Sasuke follows your definition of a hero in the slightest. He is the literal antithesis of your kind of hero.
Sasuke is not a hero for being a complete and total tool. The first part of Naruto is about him dedicating himself to killing his brother... who set himself up to do exactly that. Sasuke is extirely driven by the act of being a tool for Itachi and doesn't know it. Then Orochimaru tags him with a seal that makes him a future body candidate for Orochimaru... a complete and total future of toolship is shedualed for him then. Which he actually dives into whole heartedly and keeps excepting 'free' power up after free power up. I'm pretty sure Sakura glomping/talking him down is the only heroics involved there. Concidering exactly how thrilled Sasuke was with his free power up at that point I think that is the only thing that stopped him from burning out right then and there.
Flees Leaf for more power and then uses the power he does get to attempt to kill one of the people who most supports him just to test his own free power up. With a freebie attack move (granted he did train to aim it). Naruto responses by taking a hand through the chest to mark Sasuke a missing nin. At this point Sasuke makes the only major decision of his own in his life up to that point. He doesn't kill Naruto for the sake of killing him. He takes high moral ground and accepts Naruto won that one. Then leaves.
Flash Forward 3 years and Sasuke has been a tool for Orochimaru. Doing little to nothing of his own volition. Beating up mooks without killing them apparently. Orochimaru then owns him in a fight and takes over his body... only to have his next and longest term master pop out of nowhere and pwn the white snake from nowhere. That soul is property of the Great and Powerful Copy Wheel Eye. So Sasuke wanders off and eventually runs into Itachi... who procedes to explain what a complete tool Sasuke is and then die at him. This breaks Sasuke as he learns he has been played utterly. Flashforward to Madara sicking him like a attack dog on people and Sharigan getting bored and proving its an 'I WIN' button elemental. Seriously the last fight I know of Sasuke won on his own was against the demon brothers in the wave arc.
Itachi even gives Naruto a move (with a ten year charge time no less) that has the sole purpose is to pull Sasuke's head out of a noncranial orifce. His own lack of control of his life is destroying his mind. After the Deidara fights he clearly fails to believe his own account of what happened. Not that he is making it up, but he just doesn't actually believe that happened. Being completely out of chakra is not any kind of logical time to spam 9th level spells and he knows it. Sasuke has 'I WIN' button poisoning and he full well knows it. This is what is destroying him.
Sasuke is one of the most miserable, caged characters in existance and everytime he is on screne he is doing some combination of disbelieving his life, in shock that people can't see what BS he has to put up with from his own eyes (if not outright praising stuff he was only the vessel for doing), wallowing in the lack of control he has over things, or just saying 'screw it' and being the tool he is stuck doing.
Seriously, how does Sasuke qualify as your definition of hero in the slightest? He is the Anti-thesis of your kind of hero.
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You're right. I was trying to hard to find examples and didn't think Emochiha through beyond how he might apply. He's a turdling.
- CD
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