Elements of magic

[classicdrogn]

No, not like the classical elements, or an alternate system based on eastern philosophy, nor even the RL physical elements though the idea is closer; I'm trying to come up with a conceptual, effect-based system to model spellcasting. Using the following, can you think of an effect that CAN'T be done?

Actions:

separate
unite
move (as in A to C via B, "attract" and "repel" are also included via To or From)
->inertia is cancelled automatically for the force imparted by Move, but remains after the spell ends if the target is still in motion, and friction/lightspeed/time dialation effects are in full force unless specifically counteracted by other parts of the spell. Move spells must have a reference that they move relative to, which defaults to whatever the caster considers their own frame of reference but can be specified explicitly.
transfer (as in A to C, no waypoints)
->the relative motion of a physical target is not affected unless adjusted by a Move component, as compared to the caster's frame of reference or a specified secondary target. This makes teleporting long distances tricky if there is a significant change in altitude or latitude on a planetary surface, and even more so (for example) in a surface-to-moon transfer.
increase
decrease
create
negate
reshape (while observing conservation of mass and energy)
detect
conceal

Targets:

Matter/Energy (really, it's all energy, but some is bound up in little clumps)
-> solid, liquid, gas, plasma, Bose-Einstein condensate, kinetic, thermal, light, etc. (Yes, this includes all specific objects, from an enemy's body to a planet, as long as it is conceptually a single item.)

Space/Time
-> volume, distance, duration, stasis (area effects go in this category)

Mind/Soul (setting aside theology for the purpose of the discussion, a soul is a mind accumulating experience as it moves through time)
-> luck, telepathy, emotions (often used as a precursor stage for spells with ongoing effects so they can be mentally controlled)

Group
-> "red fruits" "glass objects" "members of (organization)" "children of (specify) bloodline" (a Space target to limit the area of effect is almost always also required, to avoid draining the mage to death while trying to affect every red fruit in the universe)

Magic
-> currently active effects can also be targeted, though the results of a spell that has finished are permanent unless a different spell is used to change them again. Two clashing effects with the same strength will draw increasing levels of power until one runs out or the caster cuts it off, though it is also possible to counter an effect in a way that does not directly conflict with it, such as changing the reference point of a shield's spatial location rather than overcoming its protection. Interlocking protections against such work rounds are the hallmark of capable and experienced casters.

Syntax elements:

To
From
With
And
Not
While
If/Then/Else
Or

Greater
Lesser
Equal
True/False
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Morganite]

Hmmm. I'm not really sure how enhancements (like FSN's reinforcement, or FFXI's haste spell) would work. Or things like clairvoyance. Scrying could be something like "increase and transfer energy", but if it's a just-seeing-it-in-your-head thing, there doesn't seem to be an obvious conversion path.

-Morgan.

[Bluemage]

I don't think I can really do much of anything with your system as it
is, without the ability to target specific people/places/things.  Either there's more to what you've got in your head, or I'm just not getting your concept.
I actually attempted to do this very thing, once upon a time.  Let's see.
A lot of effects can be modeled if you use 'cards' for more literal elements of magic, and give them both literal and metaphorical meanings.  The Fire (though I'd actually call it The Heat, for reasons explained later), in other words, would stand for flames, heat, strength, and passion, while The Earth would be solid matter, stubbornness, durability, and endurance.
You can reduce the card set significantly if you allow each one to be used in multiple ways.  Inverted and reversed meanings of cards
(invert a card, and you remove that attribute; reverse it, and you use
its opposite) let one card serve as two to four, depending on if the concept the card represents has an opposite that's different from its absence... and whether there's ever a time when the absence of the opposite of a concept matters.  Heat and Water, alone or in combination, would let you produce Heat, Cold, Water, Drought, Steam, and Ice- and that's just the obvious physical options!
It's also easier to make this work if you have a grammar, so to speak; when you can use the same 'card' as either target or effect, depending on where you use it in the line, you gain a lot of flexibility.  If my terminology hasn't made it obvious yet, I envisioned my system as being based on cards, with a spell being a line of cards read left-to-right.  Cards off the line (above or below) would modify the ones on the line (specifically, the card in a specific position on the line is modified by the cards directly above and below it).
My take on enhancements would've had something like being a strength enhancement (or upping your personal body heat, setting yourself on fire, or making yourself CARE MORE, depending on intent), while would be enchanting yourself with fire.  would be scrying- literally meaning something like 'Let my vision go from here to my target'.
Permanence would be simple.  Add Inverted Time- the absence of time- to something.  The same concept works for stasis, depending on how much you intensify the concept of 'absence of time'.
I actually have some notes back at home on what I developed.  This is what I remember off the top of my head.  Would you like to know more?

---

My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.

I've been writing a bit.

[classicdrogn]

People are physical objects and therefore fall under matter/energy, for most purposes, and soul/mind for the rest. Area effects are targeted as Space or Group, "everything within (specify) bounds," with group being for things like "every red fruit" rather than being in a physical area. Buffs and scrying are, indeed, not so obvious, aside from toughening the body's physical structure and increasing muscular strength with Reshape - that only works within the bounds of physics, though.

No, wait, conceptual magic. "Increase" with the proper target definition would take care of strength/endurance and even reaction time, but Detect and Conceal as added action keywords make sense. I've thought of something more myself - probability manipulation as such is really difficult to define, even if a light touch of Move, Detect, and possibly Transfer would suffice to cheat like a boss at so called games of chance.

Bluemage, go ahead and expound on your system, though I'll note that the closest what I'm working toward gets to traditional elements is the five states of matter under physics. I've kind of toyed with the notion of assigning a vowel phonene to each action and consonants to the targets, with the x/y ones being the plosive, sibilant, and fricative groups so they can be split into subcategories for more directly nuanced meaning, but it didn't really work well in my initial attempts. The original vague concept was to combine them into syllables that could then be worked into Bleach-style nonsne incantations, but that remains only a vague and unlikely looking concept at the moment.

I will reiterate, I am very specifically saying "forget game balance, design a logically laid out system that does everything" here; any limitations for dramatic effect will be placed on it by the user's skill and power to include it in a story or game system.
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Bluemage]

Still at work, but some things occurred to me.
-Your design as it stands seems to be syntactically incomplete.  You have no way to make a spell that, say, throws a cup at a table.  You have the action for throwing, sure- could do it.  You can target an object, so you can designate the table as the end target.  How do you add the cup to the action of throwing?  As it stands, you could go , but that's ambiguous.  In fact, given that there's no way to indicate the - connection, I'd read that as 'Move to these two objects.'
Or consider the buff example.  would work for an action.  The proper subset of and/or could work for a target or a qualifier, but is several different kinds of gibberish.  Your language has the classic 'A woman without her man is nothing' problem.
-How do you shield something/someone?
-What fifth state of matter do you have in mind?  I know the basic four.
-Using conceptual materials and a scientific toolbox at the same time is like trying to create the Mona Lisa with a calculator and a CNC painting rig.  You're eating your cake and having it too.  Your system will be a lot more consistent if you choose one, and stick to it- and I'd stick to the more conceptual, mystical side of things, for your own sanity. 
-Probability manipulation with a proper list of concepts is really simple- just add to your list.  , anybody?  ?
-How do you create a fireball?  , , or something really funky like ?
-When I went in this direction, I was attempting to create a language of magic for use with runes.  Just saying.

---

My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.

I've been writing a bit.

[Bob Schroeck]

Back in the eighties I worked up the outline of something I called "magian assembly", which was basically a programming language for magic. I'd do it very differently now, but for what it was at the time, I was rather proud of it. Its solution to the fireball problem was to remotely grab piece of solar core material the size of a dust speck and teleport it to the target. Somewhat around the barn for the goal, but I thought it was a cool idea.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[classicdrogn]

Fireball would be Create Matter(plasma) - but yeah, I get your point about needing more syntax. I should look at some conlang enthusiast stuff, I guess, or maybe programming. Five states are solid, liquid, gas, plasma, and Bose-Einstein condensate, the latter of which is not especially useful in practical terms but still falls under

Luck and chance... for apparently random external phenomena, it's probably more effective to use the methods I brought up above - Detect (opponent's card) works just as well on the memory of a digital card game as paper rectangles, it's just a different flavor of matter/energy target. Luck in the sense of "being lucky" or "seven years of bad luck" seems like something that should go under Soul targets, more than anything.

So, syntax.
To, From, With, And, Not; "Or" is not included
True and False should be, though, and combining those with While or If is neccesary for delayed or repeated effects.
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[deadpan29]

The Pathfinder RPG has an optional magic system based on Words of Power.  To sumarrize:
Start with an effect word.  These aren't just "illusion" or "acid" or "divination" or "binding".  The words have conotations so there is "acid burn", "acid bolt", "acid wave", "acid cloud", etc.  Generally these could be considered verbs.  These words seem to contain more than one word of information, but it's not uncommon for one language to have a single word for a concept that takes several words to describe in another language.
Target words range from "me" or "that guy" to "burst" or various shapes.  These would be the nouns.
Meta words are the adjectives that boost things like range, durration, ability to penetrate defenses.  Other words of this sort reduce the extra requirements commonly needed for spellcasting. (Wand/focus, movements, etc.)
Some words are more powerful than others and only more experienced casters can get their minds around those words. (It's not just pronunciation, and dictionary definition.  You have to KNOW the word on a metaphysical level.)  Also, the more words that go into a spell, the more power you need.
As noted, this doesn't realy deal with conjuctions or prepesitions or the like.
----------
No, I don't believe the world has gone mad.  In order for it to go mad it would need to have been sane at some point.

[Bob Schroeck]

IIRC, GURPS Grimoire has something similar as an optional system.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[classicdrogn]

Hmmm... I got 4e GURPS Magic (which the SJG page for Grimoire says contins all the content from that book) as an ebook along with a few others before my finances went totally down the flusheroo, but never actually looked at them in detail do to comptuer problems right after. I'll have to check that out. I know the standard GURPS magic system is complicated as a sonofabitch, and doesn't seem all that powerful to make figuring it out worthwhile either.
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[classicdrogn]

Still at work, but some things occurred to me.

-Your design as it stands seems to be syntactically incomplete.  You have no way to make a spell that, say, throws a cup at a table.  You have the action for throwing, sure- could do it.  You can target an object, so you can designate the table as the end target.  How do you add the cup to the action of throwing?  As it stands, you could go , but that's ambiguous.  In fact, given that there's no way to indicate the - connection, I'd read that as 'Move to these two objects.'

I never did get around to answering this: You Move Matter(the cup) and apply a vector to it that heads for the table, is the simplest way. Or you Increase Mind(self) Move Matter to give yourself telekinesis, if you want more direct control and less math or guesswork.

-How do you shield something/someone?

-Using conceptual materials and a scientific toolbox at the same time is like trying to create the Mona Lisa with a calculator and a CNC painting rig.  You're eating your cake and having it too.  Your system will be a lot more consistent if you choose one, and stick to it- and I'd stick to the more conceptual, mystical side of things, for your own sanity. 

Alas, when the universe works on physics unless you specifically pummel it into submission, there's no handy elemental paper-rock-scissors or water=healing to be had, and while you can get results by casting Create Matter(acid) Move(at enemy) you'll get much a much stronger combat spell if you know some actual chemistry and can specify HCl or H2SO4. There's several different ways to put up a shield in front of someone, depending on what kind of shield you want, but variations on Create or Move(matter/energy, or time for a stasis effect, within a set Space) are probably the most effective.
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Foxboy]

The current "cool system" for GURPS is Ritual Path Magic with 9 loose paths that all can be manipulated by various verbs.

Let's see, a fireball is a Greater Create Energy effect, modified for target, range, and damage.

Polymorph is a Greater Transform Body, with perhaps a lesser or greater transform mind if the subject gets appropriate mentality.

Scrying a transdimensional portal is "Sense Crossroads"

So on and on.
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[classicdrogn]

Having just tracked that down, I will note that it is called "Syntactic magic" and is on p202 of 4e GURPS Magic. It's also pathetically weak game balanced, but I was expecting that from GURPS. It really is fairly similar in concept, if afflicted with fantasy "elements" and missing some of the more exploitable useful bits here (most notably explicit space/time effects) but altogether a worthwhile thing to look at as a developed example.
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[ECSNorway]

And of course it all started with Ars Magica...

'Ars' had 5 verbs - Creo (Create), Perdo (Destroy), Muto (Transform), Rego (Control), and Intellego (Perceive/Understand).

It then had 10 nouns - Animal (what it says on the tin), Auram (Air/gases), Aquam (Water/liquids), Corpus (the human body), Herbam (plants & fungi), Ignem (fire/light/heat), Imaginem (Image/Sound), Mentem (Intelligence / The Mind), Terram (Earth, any non-living solids), Vim (power, magic).

A character would have a rating in each of the 15, and combine a verb+noun for whatever the type of thing they wanted to do, and the primary subject of the spell.

So if you wanted to throw a fireball, that's Creo Ignem. If you want to do 'throw the cup at the table', the table is a targeting problem, and it's Rego Terram.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[classicdrogn]

While we're talking about fantasy elements, you'll have heard of ice hockey, field hockey, and air hockey, but did you know about [link="[video=vimeo]//player.vimeo.com/video/48026783[/video]"]fire hockey?[/url]

Edit: If you're wondering why this thread popped up to the top of the list again, I edited the first post to clarify things a little more. I think, to really work the kinks out of the system, I'd need to go through something like the Marvel Super Heroes Ultimate Powers Book and TriStat dX making more or less equivalent effects.

Which is far more labor intensive than I want to get into for now, honestly. I never even finished retypsetting the UPB with the Ultimate Addenda Addenda from... some issue of Dragon I forget.
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Stephen Mann]

Bob Schroeck wrote:

---

Back in the eighties I worked up the outline of something I called "magian assembly", which was basically a programming language for magic. I'd do it very differently now, but for what it was at the time, I was rather proud of it. Its solution to the fireball problem was to remotely grab piece of solar core material the size of a dust speck and teleport it to the target. Somewhat around the barn for the goal, but I thought it was a cool idea.

Back in the late '90s Robert Reimann posted his "Mage 2 Mage Combat System" that followed a pseudo-programming language syntax. The part that was posted was only the first step in what was to be a complete magic system with biological and magic/psychic effects added to the elemental magic in the first installment. Unfortunately, the elemental version only went to version 0.89 and the other two parts were never posted.

[classicdrogn]

Hmm, interesting, but once again based on classical elements, which are not the direction I'm looking at for this. The rigorous approach to shaping the spells is definitely worth giving more than a glance, though.
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Cobalt Greywalker]

I did have a thought several months ago about transposing the Classical/Oriental Elements to a more scientific basis.

Basically it mapped them to states of matter e.g. Earth=Solid, Water=Liquid, Air=Gas, Fire=Plasma, and Ki/Spirit=Energy. You've done something similar in your original post, but essentially grouped it all in Matter/Energy.

[classicdrogn]

Well, that's because as best physicists can tell, what we call matter is actually just little globs of energy anyway. Basically, the point here is a system of magic that doesn't require an underlying cosmology different from meatspace, just undiscovered methods of manipulating reality as currently understood. That's also why I seperated Magic off of Eneergy in the most recent edit; if it was related to known energies/forces there would be signs of it in physics.
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[ECSNorway]

Rick Cook wrote a series of fantasy novels about a computer programmer tossed into a fantasy world. His response to being told he was useless at magic was to dig down, research the elements of magic, and write a programming language for it. He ended up confusing the heck out of just about everyone.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[Stephen Mann]

ECSNorway wrote:

---

Rick Cook wrote a series of fantasy novels about a computer programmer tossed into a fantasy world. His response to being told he was useless at magic was to dig down, research the elements of magic, and write a programming language for it. He ended up confusing the heck out of just about everyone.

I liked that magic system - spells manifested as physical effects.

[BronzeSpider]

If you don't mind d20, there's, well, Elements of Magic.