Fic/RPG Worldbuilding (Looking for Input)

[Bluemage]

The bells are ringing again.
Everything started in 2060, with the first Corporate Territory Act.  Seems the politicians thought they could attract businesses if they just gave them more power.  It worked... for a time.
Businesses flocked there in droves, bringing with them wealth and jobs.  Some called it an economic boom.  Others called it a new Renaissance.
The smart ones called it the beginning of the end.
At the time, you couldn't really see it.  Business was good.  Science was better.  
With the engine of commerce behind it, technology soared to heights only dreamed of before.  The corporate think-tanks and research labs turned out innovation after innovation, year after year, each one greater and more impressive than the last.  It was a time of optimism- a time of possibility.
...a time of endless ambition.
Under the CTA, the corporations had prospered- but the CTA had limits.  The governments that passed them... the politicians that ran the governments... were hungry for more wealth, more power.  The CEOs who lived under them wanted more land, more customers.  They weren't so different, really.
Everybody has their theories on who fired the first shots.  The megacorps will tell you that the politicians launched raids, trying to seize everything.  Propaganda, if you ask me.  If you can find a nationalist, they'll tell you the megacorps crossed the borders first... fired the first shots.  Nobody really knows, anymore.
We all know what happened, though.  Big Business beat Big Government.  The corporations expanded, became megacorps- and the old nations diminished.
This wasn't the end- not yet, anyway.  Still, you could see it from there.
The megacorps quickly found that Earth was too small for them.  Resources were running low.  Space- space to live... space to work... was at a premium.  Something had to be done.
The first colony bunch at Side 1 was seen as a triumph- for the megacorp that constructed it, for the concept of space colonization, and for humanity as a whole.  'January 1st, 2101 was the day when Man freed itself from the shackles of Earth- the start of the First Universal Century', they all say.  Gran heard the bells then.
The next sixty years lived up to the hype.  Everybody- corporations, nations, even a few private investors- had their eyes on the stars.  Sides began to pop up all across the Earth Sphere, as they called it, and the people followed.  By 2160, Earth was down to two billion of us, and starting to recover.  Will it last?  Prop says yes.  Most honest people say no.
Megacorps fight.  Fact of life.  Corporate war was a thing well before the "Liberation"; after it, it was literal... and bloody.  Most of the time, the wars run cold- a little hacking here, a kidnapping there, and espionage everywhere.  Sometimes they go warm.
People die.  Things explode.  If you're lucky, you're not one of them.
The vids talk about 'colonial defense forces', or 'corporate security', or 'private police organizations' all the time.  They never call them what they are- private armies.  Every 'corp has one- but they don't get used.  Catch an Anaheim soldier in a Zimmad bunch?  The whole Sphere'd go to war.
When businesses go to war, war becomes a business.
If the 'corps couldn't hit each other, they'd get somebody else to do it for them.  So they hired mercs.  Private soldiers, not tied to any one company.  Deniable assets.
Top of the group are the shadowrunners.  Some call them an urban legend.  I know better.  Sister saw a group of toughs break into a VersaLife embassy one night, when we were kids.  Slipped through the security like it wasn't even there.  In, out, and gone.  Mom heard the bells that night.
For the right creds, 'runners will break into anyplace.  Steal a prototype?  Sure.  Blow it up instead?  Why not?  Trash some files?  Of course.
Change is coming.  I can hear it, like flashes of ringing bells.
Sibs and I are going to Side 3.  Johnson wants some data from a Zeonic testing grounds.  Everybody but the testing team has the night off.  Get in, get some blueprints, get out.  Supposed to be an easy job.
Too easy, almost.  If it's worth stealing, it's worth guarding.  If it's worth guarding, it's worth guarding well.  What are we after?
I get the feeling it's something big.

I'm pleased to report the success of the MS-04 live test.
Intelligence is still going over the effects of the two surviving infiltrators.  So far, we've only managed to decrypt this one file (attached, above).  No news on the identity of this particular fixer (Codename: "Mr. Johnson"), but I'm sure we'll track him down soon.
Recommend Infiltrator 24601 be transferred to F. Inst., Lab NT-03MS for evaluation.
Your Obdt. Servant,Oberleutnant Roger Schmidt, Zeonic Intelligence
October 16, 2174
(Elaboration later.  Reactions first.  This is a side project, after all- it only gets so much mindwidth.)

---

My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.

I've been writing a bit.

[drakensis]

So Shadowrun/Gundam mash-up? Looks interesting/
D for Drakensis

You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.

[classicdrogn]

I can has http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banach%E2% ... ki_paradox]replicator nao?

The things you find on Wikipedia...

But seriously, having something like this exist but be the one thing every megacorp agrees to suppress (while still using it to their own benefit as much as they can cook the records to hide) is entirely in-genre for a magitech corporate dark future - it lets them have the benefits of a post-scarcity supply chain for "black" projects or stretching production per unit cost, while still selling material goods. It also makes the massive amount of air/water/dirt/etc. that would have to be transported out of a gravity well to make colonies much less troublesome to deal with, not to mention the inevitable losses from imperfect seals and that last wisp you can't pump out of an airlock before opening it.

To help avoid abuse, strictly applying the requirement to be a single solid object, not a group of objects such as an assembled machine, and a high energy requirement for the process should suffice when added to the "if someone unauthorised finds out about this, kill them and everyone they know, and burn everything they've touched since" factor.
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Bluemage]

Considering how good Centurion is, I'll take that as a good sign.  Thanks. ^^
So.  What this is is a setting concept I had recently, after a bit too much Zeon Quest, Armored Core, and Deus Ex... if there is such a thing.  The basic concept is simple.  The Universal Century Gundam setting seems to have started with the premise 'What if 1970s Earth got into space colonization?'
I'm changing that to 'What if future cyberpunk Earth got into space colonization, and it still led to some form of the One Year War?' 
We know UC 0001 is someplace in the late 2000s or early 2100s (or at least has been hinted to fit in there); what if the tech developed before that point was different?
The rub is that all those space colonies out there belong to different groups.  FC Earth had a number of megacorps on it before the UC era began; who's to say that one of the cylinders out there doesn't belong to VersaLife, or Eurocorp, or even GENOM?  Which 'corps will side with Earth, which ones will side with Zeon, and which will just sit back and backstab both sides while claiming neutrality?
Most of my ideas so far relate to how canon Gundam fits into this new structure- tying the return of magic in Shadowrun to the emergence of Newtypes, the sizably more complex political map at the start of the OYW, what all is left on Earth- that sort of thing.  What I'm looking to create is a setting that would work for fic and for pen-and-paper RPGs- I'm informed Mekton, GURPS, and maybe BESM could handle it well enough.  What I need is questions, ideas, and thoughts.

---

My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.

I've been writing a bit.

[Sirrocco]

ClassicDrogn - that works for infinite numbers of points because aleph null divided by two is still aleph null. It doesn't work for anything finite - and while it lets you do interestign thigns with volume, the stuff we care about also has finite (and measurable) mass.

I am amused by the idea of a run on a "poorly defended testing site" that winds up being the test procedure.

[classicdrogn]

Well, that's where the magic comes in, innit?

Step 1: Decomposition
Step 2: Translation/Rotation
Step 3: Recomposition
Step 4: (magic happens)
Step 5: Profit!

Edit to provide non-joke content:

Corp name: Motodyne Industries
Primary subsidiaries: Motodyne Heavy Industries/Wyvvern Armory
Products: ground/air vehicles, consumer robots/cybernetics, medical equipment, (MHI) construction equipment, industrial robots/lasers, spacecraft (WA) combat robots/cybernetics, firearms, energy weapons
Logo: arrowhead overlapping a circle, always mounted pointing up on stationary products or toward the front of mobile ones, (WA) arrowhead in the background with the general shape of the circle replaced by the silhouette of a wyvvern curled up in the foreground
Political Leanings: Spacenoid
Primary direct competitor: Afrikaans Vliegtuig Korporasie/AVK International
How Likely to Screw Hired Shadowrunners: Relatively low, as long as they keep to the agreed terms. Relatively.
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Angryoptimist]

Good lord, this is a great idea! I know you've mentioned gaming specifically, but I seriously hope you write something in this; I will read the hell out of it if you do!

Hmm. Armored Core, huh? Drawing influence from those games? Which ones? Are Murokumo Millenium or Chrome or ChemicalDyne present in this world? Taking inspiration mainly from the later Armored Cores? Plenty of megacorps to mine from there, given how they seemed to introduce new ones with every new sequel cluster.

Not that you're hurting for megacorps to draw from. There's plenty in many, many sources. GENOM, obviously, but how about http://redfaction.wikia.com/wiki/Ultor_Corporation]Ultor? OCP? Wayland-Yutani? Umbrella? http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Pre-war_companies]WestTek, RoboCo, Vault-Tec, Poseidon Energy?

I imagine you'll probably go with largely Gundam-y tech given how there's a lot of Rule of Fun and A Wizard Did It in Armored Core, whereas Gundam goes to great lengths to describe/document its (admittedly ridiculous) technology--maybe crib some stuff from AC4, though? Great themes of technology destroying the environment/world in the game (also, Primal Armor was pretty cool). Of course, there's always http://armoredcore.wikia.com/wiki/Destroy_%22Justice%22]Giant Space Gun "Justice". And http://armoredcore.wikia.com/wiki/Human_PLUS]Human PLUS, which would be way appropriate--can't have Shadowrun without street samurai, after all.

Where does Zeon sit in this? Are they fueled by a long-overdue reaction against dystopian corporate rule? The manifestation of a UC-esc space freedom movement? Just Zabi Corporation's hijacking of some movement? Against Shadowrun-y megacorps, a UC-ish Zeon could look almost heroic.

Are you considering an outright war and chaos/things fall apart arc in world progression? It'd thematically appropriate with Armored Core, but might not fit with what you want (depending on what you want), I'd guess.

And so many characters to choose from and play with! Planning on doing anything with those loads and loads of UC characters? Who's on the wrong side of the law? Who's with the corps? Like, does this mean Emma Sheen is working for a megacorp? Or, did her personal honor take her down a different path? Bright Noa? What places are there for idealistic young chaps like Amuro and Kamille? Obviously, in such a universe, Judeau would be on the wrongest side of the law he could possibly be on that still afforded him a good night's sleep and mirror privileges. http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Paptimus_Scirocco]Dear ol' Pappy? Hell, Char--we know where he'd be, but if the Zabi's are opposing the megacorps, can he really put giving the megacorps a bloody nose aside to get revenge for his father? Or is Char a sellout? (Or the Zeons corporate puppets/a megacorp themselves.)

Pardon me if I'm a bit overenthusiastic, but I'm just about dyin' for some good cyberpunk. And I'm a huge fan of (at least the older interations of) Armored Core.

• %[link=http://xkcd.com/1288/]XKCD #1288]
  
• %[link=http://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/foxreplace/?src=search]FoxReplace for Firefox]

Two great tastes that go great together!

[Bluemage]

Sirrocco: Well, the facility *is* poorly defended.  There's only one person there!
...in the cockpit of the second model of prototype Zaku, but still...
CD:  Why that particular list of products?  Who is that rival company, and why are they rivals?  Why would they be pro-space? 
Are they ideologically driven?  Financially linked to Zeon/Zeon-affiliated companies/other pro-space powers?  Out for revenge against Sovereign Earth for some sort of legal slight?
Don't get me wrong- I like content.  Content is good.  The point of this, though, is to establish the world- and you can't have a world without reasons and connections.
Angryoptimist:  Wow.  This is the sort of reaction I was hoping for.  You've given me a reason to explain more of what I've come up with to date, and (hopefully) spark more discussion.
I don't (yet) have any plans to write anything in this.  I'm trying to develop a setting, partially to get others to write/GM in it, and partially because I liked the idea too much not to.  My Nanoha fic takes up all my writing time at the moment.
Now, to answer your questions:
-I'm drawing influence from the entire AC series, save for AC4/4A, for reasons (for and against) that come out across this entire post.  As far as I'm concerned, any and all of the megacorps from AC can exist in it; and the Layered can be closed-type colonies off on one of the other Sides, someplace.
-I can't simply describe the techbase in one simple statement.  I can say that Shadowrun and Deus Ex: Human Revolution are good sources for the pre-space techbase.  Space and mobile suit tech starts out basically as per Mobile Suit Gundam canon, up to the time of the One Year War.  Figure that Zeon has the same edge in mobile suit development and Minovsky tech usage they had in canon Gundam at that point- everybody else has fusion and potentially particle spreaders, but nobody else has the ultracompact (MS-sized) reactors yet.  After the One Week War, expect megacorp leaders the Sphere over to take one look at the Zaku, call in their R&D departments, and yell "GET US SOME OF THAT!"... then call in their space ops department, and tell them to set up a rush salvage op to that area of space/orbit, and expect to have to fight off the competition when they get there.  At the start of the OYW, EVERYBODY is working on mobile suit theory and mechanics.
Figure that, once everybody gets a handle on how to build giant war machines, then they'll start trying to add in their own special features.  Zeon and Earth have things like psycommu and EXAM to develop- Human+ would fit in right alongside that, and build off of the preexisting human augmentation technology.  OCP... well, if they ever had another successful Robocop, I could see them trying to pull a Ghor with him.
At some point, either during or after the War, some bright sort is going to figure out that mobile suits are far too large for much of the urban combat that the now-cyberpunk colonies will require, and look into miniaturizing the tech.  Enter the urban suit- a mecha someplace in between personal armor, and the multi-story war machines the space and land wars are fought with.  This was another piece of AC influence- AC1-4 had their ACs be 30+ feet tall, but AC5 cut that in half, and scaled the power levels down appropriately.  No more constant boosting, for one thing- AC5 ACs lost the ability to fly.  Figure urban suits are 10-20' tall, while a standard Zaku is 57' tall.  Urban suits won't start out able to power energy weapons of any kind, but I have some delightful ideas involving E-caps on that front.  Some might even be powered by E-caps.
ESWAT's landmates, motoslaves, and the AMP suits from Avatar are roughly what I'm aiming at for that urban suit category.  AC5 Armored Cores are on the tall end, and a bit advanced, but fairly close.
-Zeon isn't actually all that different from canon.  Figure Side 3 was mostly colonized by private investors- the sort of people who would throw mountains of cash into an idea.  Idealistic mega-rich, collections of like-minded upper-middle class investors, and maybe the odd former sovereign nation, here and there.  Then zum Deikun came along, and unified them.  His philosophies would be slightly different in this setting than in canon, mostly because Newtypes wouldn't be the only types of beings to come into existence as a result of space colonization.  The other races of Shadowrun started to be born around the same time- I'm figuring space colonization triggered the return of magic in this setting, by means I have yet to reasonably explain- so his theories took them into account.  Zeon ended up being one of the few nations in space that welcomed elves, dwarves, and orcs because of that.  The Zabi family would be corporatist nobles- probably in charge of a war-essential industry or two.  Figure that Degwin takes over Zeon, and starts a war.  If he wins, he's expanded his power by taking over the Earth.  If he loses, he's expanded his power by making gobs of money on the war economy, and has friends who've done the same that he can flee to.  Either way, he wins.
-While I love AC4, the theme of technology destroying the Earth by being used doesn't really fit UC Gundam.  Now, if one were to postulate a Gundam 00 cyberpunk setting, one could tie together GN and Kojima particles... but I digress.
-Post-OYW, I'm thinking there'll be some danger of things getting nasty.  Not sure how much.  I do know one of the things I want to have happen is the commercialization of the 'Gundam' name.  Basically, the scientists behind Project V start up an independent company that owns the rights to the name and likeness of the RX-78 line.  Given the war, and the effectiveness of the Gundams, everybody wants one of their own... more than that, everybody wants to make the NEXT Gundam.  So they trade on that, and basically say 'Send us a mobile suit, its blueprints, and a pile of money.  If our impartial testing process deems it good enough, we'll declare it a Gundam, and give it the right to use the name and the helmet.'  To get the cert, your suit basically has to be bleeding-edge good... and if you try and use the name and design without it, they sue you so hard your colony explodes.  Oh, and they certify both urban and mobile suits, and reserve the right to remove the cert at any time, for a handful of reasons, including your suit no longer performing well enough in comparison to the current-gen.  There is such a thing as a former Gundam, not that even ex-Gundams can be taken lightly.
I suspect that nothing past the halfway point of the War will be recognizable as Gundam canon any longer, so really anything could go from that point on. 
-As for characters, I really don't know.  This is part of why I wanted to get this idea out where people could pick it up for themselves- I don't have enough Gundam background to do it justice.  I haven't actually seen any of it- all my knowledge is from fic, games, reference materials, and the like. 
The start of the metaplot should have most of the canon UC characters still exist, though not all as you know them.  Some will end up being metahumans, cyborgs, or both.  Others should end up playing different roles than before.  Some will stay entirely the same, or close enough that you can say 'Yeah, that's basically the same person.'  I can't see Bright as having been changed at all, for one thing.  Dozle Zabi might be an orc, or just naturally big- not sure which is more fitting.  I suspect Johnny Ridden will end up becoming an ex-Zeon corporate soldier, probably for one of the 'corps that are pro-spacenoid and anti-Zeon, only to crash a fight between the Gundam and a certain red suit later on... not that anybody understands why.  
The Amuro/Char dynamic is both too classic and too good to change without a very good reason, and I don't have one yet.  I suspect, given that I like the idea of the Zabis being corporatist usurpers, Char will end up having to make a tough choice- destroy the Zabis' corporate interests for REVENGE and weaken Zeon when she least needs it, or leave them intact and let his father's killer make more money?  By 2193, he's probably more interested in wiping out the megacorps than the Earth, so whatever version of CCA happens will be decidedly different.
"Dear ol' Pappy", as you call him, will be mostly unchanged, save of one little thing.  Which Jupiter Fleet will he be from?  I mean, there's the Jupiter Energy Fleet, UAC Jupiter, Shinra Fusion Power Company...
-Hey, contribute as much as you want.  I want to see fic in this universe written as much as you- I just don't have the time, or the skills to do it justice.  The more we do, the more we have to offer to somebody who does.

---

My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.

I've been writing a bit.

[classicdrogn]

CD: Why that particular list of products? Who is that rival company, and why are they rivals? Why would they be pro-space?

Are they ideologically driven? Financially linked to Zeon/Zeon-affiliated companies/other pro-space powers? Out for revenge against Sovereign Earth for some sort of legal slight?

In order: The product list basically grows out of starting as an automobile manufacturer, then extending into building industrial robots rather than hiring someone else to build their production lines, then to construction equipment and other kinds of vehicles, then as cybernetics and mecha developed from earlier robotics technology expanding that to suit, medical equipment having been the stock in trade of a company acquired to facilitate entering the cybernetics market. Wyvvern Armory was a more recent merger, done mainly for vertical integration with the combat mecha/cyber business and on the other side for Motodyne optics and high-energy technology, with the name kept for brand recognition purposes.

The rival company is pretty much just a name to be attached to similar products on the other side of whatever dividing line ends up getting drawn, with their headquarters in South Africa instead of on a colony cylinder. It can be ignored if something more interesting develops in its place.

They're pro-space because they build a lot of the equipment used in space, from actual ships to the extraction equipment used on Luna, Mars, and asteroid mining, and zero-g construction/maintenance robots - cutting lasers and plasma torches make up a lot more of their high-energy product line than weapons sales. Microgravity and a manufactured environment with no foreign contaminants are also good for producing the ultra-high-quality optics and components they need.

So, yeah, while they have groundside interests in automobiles, aircraft, and robotics, and the factories they and others use to produce them for that matter, the high-end stuff is mostly space-based and promoting it is in their interests. I'm not sure what political faction the corporate culture tending toward minimal backstabbing even in their shady dealings (to foster the idea "Like them or loathe them, you can do business with Motodyne") would lean toward, as I'm not all that up on Gundam lore, but that very reputation would make it possible that they could remain at least nominally neutral unless forced to take a side.

Actually, I like that as an unofficial/shadowrunner's version corporate motto - the official one being "The Engine that Drives the Future".
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Norgarth]

On the topic of Urban Suits, you may also be able to draw some inspiration from the Front Mission games.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_Mission

In the games you pilot 'Wanzers', customizable mecha roughly in the Landmate size catagory. Here's the 2 intro demos from the FM 4:

There was a fair variety of available weapons to choose from: Grenade/Rocket or Missile Launchers for the shoulders, while hand held gear included Bazookas, Sniper Rifles, SMGs, Shotguns, Flamethrowers, Sheilds and 3 kinds of melee weapons (Batons/clubs, 'Brass' knuckles, or pneumatic spikes (the last show at the end of the first vid). Oh and rare energy beam weapons.

There were 4 kinds of 'legs' I can recall from them as well: standard bipedal, quadrupedal, hover, and tracked
___________________________
"I've always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific." - George Carlin

[Acyl]

Two thoughts:

On megacorps replacing governments - This is a cyberpunk staple, but it's always vaguely annoyed me. Most fiction in the genre doesn't adequately acknowledge the fact that governments and corporations are already in bed, in many countries. Especially Asia, where a lot of the big firms literally are state-owned, or otherwise government-linked in some way. It's not a very nuanced treatment. Granted, some cyberpunk stories do somewhat acknowledge this, generally with reference to China and Japan. Shadowrun had a sort of neo-Imperial corporate Japanese thing going down.

On cyberpunk and Mobile Suits - I've personally always felt giant humanoid mecha actually make a lot more sense in a cyberpunk setting. Mostly because...aside from rule of cool, a giant mech that has hand-held weaponry doesn't make an awful lot of sense. But in a cyberpunk world, there's presumably a great deal of neural interface going on. The pilot's probably jacked into the mech, with interface technology based on that developed for hackers/deckers diving into cyberspace, or cyborgs controlling their mechanical limbs.

So in that context, having the mech basically be a giant soldier with handguns, rifles and swords makes sense. It's maximum familiarity for the pilot, and they can do all their training in 'meatspace' before translating that to the giant robot...
-- Acyl

[Bluemage]

Timote:  I'm quite familiar with Front Mission.  Fond of it, too.
...I just forgot about it.  Dangit.  Good catch. ^^
If anything, I'd like to see the wanzer and the Grafwanzer compete with the Armored Core for the modular all-purpose mobile suit market...
Acyl:
As far as the government/megacorp connection goes, I sort of envision there being a continuum of situations out there.  Some governments ban (or try to, more often) megacorps from their territory.  Others allow them in.  Still others are comfortably tied to them, and yet more are in bed with them.  Then you have places where the government is the 'corp.  Five different categories, I'd say.
I envision Earth as being a patchwork of all five.  Mostly types 3 and 4, with good representation of 1 and 5.  Zeon is someplace between a 3 and a 4- Zeonic, Zimmad, and whatever the Zabi family business should be called are powerful, but they don't run the government.
The thing about living under a government, in this setting, is that, if you have enough money, you can opt out.  You can make your own land, and be your own government... with blackjack, and hookers... IN SPACE!  Colonies sort of change the game.
As for before space colonization, I figure the CEOs of that time were under a good bit more pressure to keep their properties and their wealth and their technology, so they lashed out.
As far as jacking in goes, that's most likely the (first) wave of the future.  The second would be full-conversion mobile suits, quickly followed by full-conversion cyborgs with mobile suit linking capability, shortly after followed by full-con MSes with remote brain stasis capability, since that much cyber would probably cause plenty of  'psychosis, plenty fast...
Or maybe not, depending on who does the cyber, and how.  I've not decided how much in the way of SR Essence mechanics should be included, so it might not even be an issue.
Carriers full of Newtype brains remote-controlling the ship's MS complement via psycommu, anybody?

---

My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.

I've been writing a bit.

[classicdrogn]

Cyberpsychosis, as commonly expressed anyway, was never anything but a crappy game balance mechanic anyway - having issues because of the trauma of injuries that require prosthetics, sure, power tripping assholes who get off on having machine superpowers, okay, but the soccer mom who gets caught in a running 'frame battle on the freeway and has three cyberlimbs and full synthskin, all of which respond somewhere around as well as the original? Not going to go bugnuts crazy just because. Not likely to laugh it off and be back to her cubicle the next day, either, but with reasonably mature cybernetics technology the major issues will be "Oh god what if my kids had been in the car?" and paying the increase in insurance premiums, not "Billy's hugs don't feel the same anymore.... KILL HIM! KILL THEM ALL!" Someone who goes for voluntary augmentation shouldn't even have that much problem, bar pre-existing mental issues that might be exacerbated.

So basically... (and especially if you're going to include non-human races anyway) kick it to the curb, I say, and limit cybernetics with availability, cost, and story/plot concerns, not some fake sanity points counter.

ETA: You should also have cybernetic component options specifically made to increase magical aptitude, by using special materials or runic arrays or whatever jive you decide it runs on. And don't forget the steam power! Moving water is highly magically active, and what else IS steam, in the end? (see last minute of this video)

--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Acyl]

Agreed, having people go crazy simply because they've now got artificial parts...is a staple of the cyberpunk genre, but it's one that probably needs a little bit of thought on how you want to handle it. It's a very very common idea in fiction, but it doesn't necessarily hold up under close examination.

You can play the trope straight to good effect - Global Frequency (the comic book) did:

"Try to imagine. You're a multiple amputee who's been flayed alive. You can't feel your own heartbeat. You can't feel yourself breathe. You can feel metal rubbing against your muscles and organs. And you don't recognize the man in the mirror."

But that implies cybernetics suck and don't produce good quality of life. That may not be the case. Depends on whether you're playing up the horror factor or not.
-- Acyl

[drakensis]

You might want to look at Star Blade Battalion, a space opera RPG by Ral Talorsian (who also came up with Cyberpunk 2020) for a post-cyberpunk science-fiction setting.

There's a pretty good fanfic for the setting by Shawn Hagen
D for Drakensis

You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.

[Bluemage]

I think what I'm going to do is create a spreadsheet/table of companies- try and map out the different industries you'd need in a world like that, and then set about developing a reasonable number of 'corps for each of them.  I've already got something like six different ones in mind for food production, covering new-growth agriculture, recycled nutrients, and a couple of different methods of protein creation... but then, agricorps are easy.  Nobody's going to screw with the food supply- why, you'd have to be some sort of madman to even... oh.  Right. ^^
Drakensis: I found it, and read the first chapter.  Have to say, it's really aged.  That was written back when gratuitous Japanese was cool, wasn't it?
On Cyberpsychosis:  I think this might illustrate my current opinion on the effects of getting 'borged.

"Y'listen to those Purity whackos out there- you'll be thinkin' chrome makes you crazy.  Look, man, I know crazy.  Crazy is the old man down the street who was cuttin' up kids 'cause he never had any.  Crazy is that guy in the Reds- you know the one- was blowin' up schools and hospitals couple of years back.  Y'want crazy?  Look in the mirror, 'cause both those guys?  Nothin' but meat.
S'not the chrome that makes psychos, 'less you get it wrong.  Seen docs'll hack at your brain, just to see what happens.  Had a brother go in for some quick new arms- said he found a doc would fix him up, cheap.  Next day, he snapped.  Started slashin' people up like some kind of animal.  Took three of us t'put him down. 
Get an eye that don't see right, or a leg that don't quite fit?  Yeah, I could see it drivin' you nuts- that stuff hurts like a mother... or maybe if you're already dancin' on the line, a bit of cyber'd push you over- 'specially if you didn't ask for it.  Y'gotta accept who you are- what you are- but who doesn't?
Plenty of normals don't accept themselves, go out killin'.  Y'don't blame them for being meat.  Why blame us for havin' chrome?"

-Anonymous member of the New Detroit Blues to Helena MacOlafsson, as recorded in the documentary Cyber In The Streets: How The Common Man Sees Human Augmentation.February 16th, 2164.

---

My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.

I've been writing a bit.

[classicdrogn]

Ah, an important part of my counterexample to cyberpsychosis that got left out, is that cyber-soccer-mom's metal was installed before she was conscious again in a more than drifting-on-a-cloud-of-the-good-drugs way, so she didn't have the "wake up in a hospital, my nose itches, why isn't my arm responding? OH GOD NO ARMS!" experience. That's not to say that suddenly having, say, a 15-20% reduction in sense of touch from the all-over synthetic replacement skin and having it match the color that was on your driver's license photo from three years ago isn't a shock, and had she really picked up taht many laugh lines? So strange - but with cybernetics developed to the point that getting some installed is expected to increase a mook street thug to a miniboss with just a couple of days to recover, it makes NO GODDAMN SENSE AT ALL that a competent, reputable cyberdoc can't make quality of life issues next to a nonissue if the main point is compensating for drastic injuries.
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[drakensis]

One thing that Cyberpunk did was have therapy that would follow up on adding cyberware and significantly reduced the humanity loss. Of course it's expensive, time consuming and appears on legal records. So cyberpsychosis is more of an issue for black market cybernetics or people on a tight budget who can't afford the therapy.
D for Drakensis

You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.

[Angryoptimist]

Bluemage: thanks for the reply. Having read it, I've got a few thoughts right away.

- A Layered colony seems like it might be a bit problematic to integrate into the setting, though. In AC3, IIRC, the majority of people didn't know there was an aboveground at all--I can't recall, but I think the Important People who dealt with the Controller might have known--and it was implied to have been that way for a very long time (long enough for, say, the Earth's surface to stop being inimical to human life/lethally radioactive). If you really wanted to, you might be able to shoehorn that in--Shadowrun (from what I understand; all I know of it is, unfortunately, second-hand knowledge) already has its concept of lost, prior civilizations; you'd just be adding one in between this world's Earthdawn equivalent and the 'present day'. As a bonus, you'd get a very different reason for Armored Core's "Great Destruction" and an altogether less self-destructive use for THE GIANT SPACE GUN "JUSTICE" (I love that overwrought name)--but one or two colonies managed to dodge trouble and cling on for survival. Tada, an explanation sealed and forgotten (even to its inhabitants) spaaace colony full of http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lostech]lostech.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that this is not what you have planned for the setting.

So, alternately, I guess you could probably decide what "Layered" means in this context--say, some sort of advanced model, black projects sort of colony with limited access and egress. Like a Black Mesa in spaaace. I mean, after all, what's authorial power if you don't ever use it? Best part, you can have such a thing managed by a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SHODAN]benevolent AI and have all kinds of [link=http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Renraku_Arcology]interesting developments there, if you want that kind of thing in the setting.

- One particular thing leaps to mind with techbase stuff: the human augmentation bits. It seems to me that the inevitable thing is that someone will--beyond making cyber-newtypes, try to enhance the abilities of natural newtypes, and then someone will try to put it all together. Seems like this could be taken places. I'm picturing a cadre of superhuman newtypes with god complexes--which some megacorp somewhere thought they had much better control of then they actually did--resembling nothing so much as a cross between Khan's band and technomancer I-Jin; PC encounters with something like that have tremendous potential for http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Losing]!!FUN!!

- A good picture you paint of the Zeons here. Not much to add right now, except: does Ghiren end up killing Degwin with the sun here, too? If so, I guess it won't be as win/win for Degwin as he imagines it'll be.

- Yes, and I see it now that you've pointed it out.

- I like the commercial absurdity of this idea. Also: maybe implies that Tem Ray survives without brain damage? Who knows what ripple of change that'd cause.

- It's my understanding that, because of the Gundam rightsholder's current international strategy, it's fairly difficult and expensive for anyone to be really well-informed on the UC bits of the Gundam franchise. For myself (in the UC continuity), I've seen a fair stretch of the earlier parts of Mobile Suit Gundam (right about until they're defending... Jaburo, is it?). I'm up to episode 21 of Zeta Gundam (and this thread has inspired me to continue with that, now) and I've seen a handful of episodes of ZZ. I've also read a bunch of Char's Deleted Affair, which is so-so, but I'm interested to see how they got from the start of that Zeta Gundam. Oh, and 08th MS Team. I don't even know where I'd find that now... So, I've really only got a smattering myself. I kinda get the impression that Gundam fans that've seen all of the UC stuff are pretty thin on the ground outside of Japan.

It may end up being best to simply reject the canonical UC Gundam reality and substitute your own. After all, you're already venturing into AU territory...

- I'll contribute as much as I can. I must cogitate on what everyone's saying in the thread a bit.

Since we seem to be on the subject of cyberpsychosis: I've personally always wondered about the whole 'cybernetics eat your soul' thing. I mean, if removing and replacing bits of the body eats at the soul, does that mean body parts host bits of the soul? That bits of the body are equivalent to bits of the soul? So, like, an elbow is 1/200th of a soul? Or is it the presence of metal and artificial materials in the body? So, like, nipple rings and hip replacements gently nibble on the soul?

I mean, the soul doesn't necessarily have to be a soul here. That's just the standard metaphor. You get the picture. I mean, is one elbow approximately 1/212th of the sum-total of a person's love, and anger, and passion and etc.? Or is there some kind of critical mass like, "Welp, I've got metal elbows and a chrome left buttock, I definitely feel %5 less human now."

Maybe I'm just reading too much into a simple bit of setting flavor/game mechanic.

The idea of it being a trauma thing that can be managed with proper outpatient therapy and in-patient care like you guys have been hashing out makes a lot more sense to me. It's just generally an idea that's easier to suspend disbelief for.

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Two great tastes that go great together!

[Bluemage]

Right, so unless I've missed something, here's the final summary on how cyberware (replacements for organic parts) and augmentations (cyberware that adds capabilities not normally part of the human experience) effect the mind:
-'Cyberpsychosis' is what happens when the mind cannot adapt to the changes cyberware makes to the body.  The term is a misnomer; there's a whole spectrum of symptoms, from slight irritability/social alienation to full-on insanity, depending on the severity of the disconnect.  There are also ways to minimize the disconnect, or decrease it after the fact.
-Generally speaking, a consenting individual who gets properly fitted, properly installed cyber designed to minimally change the human experience will come out of the surgery as sane as they went into it.  Note all the qualifiers in that.  For somebody getting chromed at a reputable, above-board private clinic (or a corporate doctor, if the patient is of value to the 'corp), that's what'll happen.  In other situations, not so much.
-Used cyber, unless you really know what you're doing, is a bad idea.  Cyber designed for one person will, more often than not, not physically fit somebody else.  This typically hurts, anywhere from a dull ache to stabbing pains, and can also feel wrong (see the Global Frequency example above).  Even if it does physically fit, you can't just rip it out of Corpse A and stick it in Schmuck B; it's 'learned' to read the neural patterns of its original user, and won't behave the way it should.  You can 'zero' the interface, but it has to be done while the cyber is disconnected.
-Less reputable doctors might skip steps... like knocking you out before amputating your meat, or fitting/zeroing used cyber before sticking it in.  Part of minimizing the disconnect is making sure the patient is never conscious mid-procedure; the trauma of being without parts of themselves makes it harder to adapt to having new, slightly different ones back.  Some are also known to be... less than careful... with patients' remaining meat, leading to infection, brain damage, and other issues.
-Being chromed against your will tends to be a one-way ticket to Crazyville.  It generally turns the new parts, no matter how useful they might be, into an imposition in the mind of the recipient.  For most people, this means they'll resent having them, desire their old meat back, and actively oppose the thought of accepting them as parts of themselves.
-Augmentations are generally harder to accept than standard cyberware, which is harder to accept than typical prosthetics.  It's easier for a human to accept a new arm that looks human than a chrome arm, unless they're already in the right frame of mind to desire significant changes to their body.  When you add in features like retractable blades, 360-degree rotation, and integrated kinetic weaponry, the disconnect between the old arm and the new arm only gets bigger.
-Counseling can help patients accept and adjust to their new body parts.  The problems are all mental, after all- good therapy can help you get past them.  Its necessity depends on how much disconnect you're having- a transhumanist might need none at all, or maybe just a little coaching on how to use posthuman abilities.
Let me know if I missed any points- I'll add them to the concept.  NOW, BACK TO SPACE!

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My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.

I've been writing a bit.

[Bluemage]

Angryoptimist:  My thought with the Layered was that it'd be established in a non-conventional location, early in the UC colonization era, and then forgotten about.  The UC Gundam timeline officially continues into the 0200s, so I was figuring it could basically be a Chekov's Gun for a far-future story.
Black Mesa IN SPACE!?  I like it, though that's what many of the 'corps are doing there to begin with.  Now you have me imagining a Side where one colony is Raccoon City (from the first movie, so include the Hive), one colony is Black Mesa, a third is Aperture Science, the fourth belongs to Weyland-Yutani...
Oh, yes.  Very likely, though I want to start by getting the OYW picture in focus, so I can see who would do such a thing, why, and how.
As far as Gihren goes, I'm not sure yet.  I do know that a lot of companies are going to be VERY WORRIED by Operation British.  Corporate war until then will be basically an extension of what it was on Earth, with colonies taking the place of cities/provinces/what have you.  When Zeon drops a colony on Earth, a lot of powerful people are going to realize that, yes, they knew things could be destroyed in war, but they LIVE in things now.  They hadn't really considered colonies themselves as weapons or targets, except in the sense of places to suborn, occupy, or take over.  Oh, and Degwin's plan isn't nearly as good as he thinks.
Maybe.  There'd have to be a good reason for it.  I was sort of anticipating using the five scientists from Wing, or at least their aliases, in that plan- maybe he survives, and becomes Doctor J?
As for knowledge, I'm drawing on normal Internet resources, Dynasty Warriors: Gundam 2, Zeon Quest, and everything I've managed to learn about Gihren's Greed.  If I ever write this, I'm going to make it a priority to see everything from the original out to CCA, and complete a GG game or two first, just for background knowledge.  Sure, canon will go out the window right quick, but the more I know about it, the better I'll be at repurposing bits of it that still work.
The canonical Shadowrun explanation, as I understand it, is that how much meat you still have influences how well your soul is still connected to your body, not how much of it is intact.  Think synch ratio, not fractions remaining.  Lose too much meat, and there's a real chance your spirit might fail to recognize your body as a) alive, and b) yours.  They actually have implants meant to force your soul to stay in you, which is, obviously, not pleasant.  I'm not a fan of that concept, which is why I'm going more with mind/body disconnect as a mechanic.

---

My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.

I've been writing a bit.

[classicdrogn]

Well, one of the things I was trying to put into the Elements of Magic thread was the concept of a soul being to a mind like time is to space, or maybe the other way around; the process of a mind changing as it observes itself and its surroundings, where a "soulless automaton" only acts as it was created to act. Not always the same things as how it was intended to act, as any programmer can tell you, but without the capability to self-modify; it's basically just a more developed way of saying that "soul" is what's called fluid intelligence, as I put it in Bubblegum Disaster.

Which is all a long winded way of looking at what you've got in those two posts and saying "Seems legit!" I guess, but I'm trying to get back in the habit of articulating these things instead of just spitting out a quip.
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Bluemage]

Right, so I've been working on the support infrastructure- mostly food production.  There's a bewildering variety of things what need making, even there, and I'm not nearly done.  PLEASE add details/companies/questions on what I've got, which will be edited as I come up with more.
Food Production:

The Daikoku Group:Location:  Multiple colony cylinders, primarily in the corporate SidesProducts:  Asian staple foods: primarily rice, soy, seaweeds, fish, and the likeFounded:  2104Likes:  Space colonization (a captive market), All megacorps (the keiretsu are some of their best customers).Ambivalent Towards:  Earth (they grow their own food), Zeon/Spacenoid Independence (doesn't matter who rules- people need food)Dislikes:  SynthPaste (for intruding on their market share), Soylens Fuscus (none of the agricorps like reprocessed organics)Liked By:  Culturally Asian spacenoids (for providing good, cheap food), most keiretsu (same), Kubota-Deere (for buying so much harvesting equipment)Disliked By: 
Likelihood of Screwing Shadowrunners: Schizophrenic.  One must remember that Daikoku is still very strongly tied to the businesses that founded it, even though they no longer own shares in it.  If you attempt to harm those businesses, Daikoku will be your worst enemy.  Otherwise (if you're no threat to the company or its interests), they have no reason to mess with you.
History:  The Japanese keiretsu always had a strong relationship with the national government.  When nations around the world began to covet the wealth of the corporations they'd ceded power to in the 2060s, Japan was not one of them.  The keiretsu and the government simply came to a deal, and business went on as usual.
At the start of the Universal Century, the keiretsu looked to space, and saw opportunity.  Japan had always depended on other lands for its natural resources- now they could mine their own metals.  The Japanese people looked up to space, and saw a chance to expand- to move out of the capsule apartments of the great Earth cities, and have rooms of their own in the colonies.  Instead of rushing straight into colony production, though, Japan went about their push to space slowly and deliberately.  Studies were done, and requirements collected.  One of those requirements, one that all the right people agreed upon, was the need for an independent food source.
The Daikoku Group was founded as a collaborative venture between the Japanese government and the major keiretsu in 2104- UC 0004.  They were given control of the first Japanese space cylinder, Takusan, upon its completion in 0012.  Two years of experimentation and one year of preparation later, Takusan was converted over to full-scale production, and construction was started on the first two corporate colonies.
Over the next fifty years, the Daikoku Group focused on expanding to match demand for its products, and buying out its investors' stakes in the company.  The last shares were transferred into company hands on June 5th, 0064- the company's sixtieth anniversary- in a ceremony attended by hundreds of dignitaries from across the Earth Sphere.

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My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.

I've been writing a bit.

[classicdrogn]

They'd probably be a subsidiary of one of the food megacorps, whether Daikoku or a competitor, but -

Name: FungiMonkey
Location: Luna
Signature Products: Moon Cheez Munky Munchies, Piya Popo (The Snack That Flies Through Space,) Luna beef
Other Products: mushrooms, milk, cheese, yoghurt, ice cream, genemod seed stock
Logo: Monkey riding a cow jumping over a crescent moon, waving a cowboy hat
Yerwot?: One of the things that's expensive and difficult to transport up to space is animal-based food products. The animals themselves typically take up large amounts of space and require lots of resources, so even with cyberwombs for cloning them rather than loading cattle onto a rocket, having them aboard a colony cylinder is troublesome. The moon at least has plenty of space once appropriate workbots are set to mixing up mooncrete and forming it into habitats, and they can easily be kept separate from the other environmental systems to avoid having a whole colony smelling of methane and ammonia. Some modification was necessary to adapt a breed of dwarf milk cattle to the lower gravity, and to produce high-yield, energy dense feed for them as well. FungiMonkey's genuine meat and dairy products remain high-priced luxury items similar to Kobe beef, but their mushrooms and the soy and rice grown from their seed stock are staples of the spacenoid diet and their artificially flavored snacks (formulated not to leave crumbs and cheez dust to gum up equipment while tasting like the familiar snacks of Earth) can be found in every vendobot and res-deck corner shop.
How Likely to Screw Shadowrunners: Forget their cute image, the geeks who originally pitched the idea may have been good sorts but that stuff's just for the rubes these days. If you go to a meeting with an FM rep, leave your wallet at home, count your fingers, toes, eyeballs and kidneys before and after, and have a toxmask and chemsniffer on your belt. God help you if you actually hire on for a job. They have in-house security (and a parent corp's Black Ops group, most likely) and outsiders are only hired to be disposable.
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Bluemage]

...I like it.  Clever, fills a niche, and I hadn't gotten to meat/dairy products yet, so that's perfect.
Daikoku doesn't really have much competition, though.  They fill one fundamental niche- Asian foods- which the other 'corps don't generally touch.  If anything, most of the other agricorps out there are closer to cultural counterparts than competition.  Most of them.
This one isn't... and would work as a FungiMonkey parent company.

Consolidated Consumables, Inc.:Location:  Three installations in the asteroid belt, roughly equidistant from each otherProducts:  Preprocessed food.  All of it.Founded:  2123Likes:  Asteroid Mining (local customers), wage slaves (their colonial customer base), armed forces (for rations), Jupiter Energy (CCI is the closest supplier they have)Ambivalent Towards:  Earth (they grow their own food), Zeon/Spacenoid Independence (doesn't matter who rules- people need food)Dislikes:  SynthPaste (CCI and SP directly target low-income spacenoids), Soylens Fuscus (none of the agricorps like reprocessed organics)Liked By:  People who need cheap food that lasts (armies, miners, the lower class)Disliked By:  SynthPaste, Soylens Fuscus (competition, see above), all other agricorps (for being 'the cheaper option' when compared to them), every gourmand in spaceLikelihood
of Screwing Shadowrunners: Entirely tied to one question- "How much does it cost?"  If it's cheaper to kill you than to work with you, they'll kill you.
History:  The colonial boom that took place early in the Universal Century both created and required unprecedented levels of extraterrestrial industry.  Colonies needed to be built- before that, the tools and ships used to create the colonies needed to be built, and the resources needed for all that construction needed to be acquired.  That meant mining, and lots of it.
CCI was founded early in the rise of asteroid mining, as a conglomeration of twenty-seven smaller companies.  The founding members of CCI saw the growth of asteroid industry, and envisioned the creation of a company that could provide affordable food to that captive market... and they knew just how to do it.  They secured rights to two carbonaceous asteroids of significant size, and began to dig.  While useless for mining, C-type asteroids contain large amounts of carbon and phosphorous, making them natural sources of nutrients for farming applications.
In time, the demand for new colonies began to taper off, and with it, the need for cosmic quantities of metals.  CCI knew there would always be some need for asteroid mining, but their board of directors had their eyes set on a greater prize- the Earth Sphere.  They purchased three industrial mass drivers- industrial surplus, from mining groups that had gone bust- and repurposed them to send cargoes to the various Sides.  Back in the Sphere, CCI executives were busy making deals- securing distributors in the civilian markets, contracts in the government ones, and diplomatic channels to the Jupiter Fleets.  By UC 0052, CCI had climbed out of its slump, and was seeing its greatest profits for twenty years.
This was not without cost, however.  By wedging itself firmly in the lower-middle-class market, CCI had made enemies of both the reprocessed food corps and the unprocessed food corps, starting a series of skirmishes, vendettas, and economic wars that would last decades.

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My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.

I've been writing a bit.