'Major discovery' from MIT primed to unleash solar revolution

[SilverFang01]

From Article :

Scientists mimic essence of plants' energy storage system

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/oxygen-0731.html

I believe this is great news.

Edit: Sorry for the font size screwup. Could not find the way to correct it before.

[Bob Schroeck]

Hey, Silverfang, welcome to the forums.

You needn't use massive bold fonts to get a point across, you know.

And yes, this is very interesting; I heard about this on the radio yesterday and was looking for more info, as of course the news report I heard was all of
like 20 words long... Thanks!
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[VladimirTherin]

Is this particularly useful?

It talks about it being a new process to revolutionize fuel cells, but they describe the chemical process as having free oxygen as a result, not free hydrogen.

Free oxygen isn't that useful, is it? I always thought the valuable result of electrolysis h2o was the hydrogen.

Unless the resulting cobalt-hydrogen-phosphate stuff can be easily reacted into releasing the hydrogen without additional energy output.

I mean, why would you use this chemical process over say, a carburetor or some other air-breathing system?

[Foxboy]

Well, for one thing, it could allow solar cars that aren't just a bicycle with delusions of comfort. Using the Solar/Fuel Cell combo to power an electric
hybrid.

To Oil Companies: Chill-lax, we still need oil to make the plastics necessary to make the cars light and safe.
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[robkelk]

Is this particularly useful?
It talks about it being a new process to revolutionize fuel cells, but they describe the chemical process as having free oxygen as a result, not free hydrogen.

Consider that water is made of hydrogen and oxygen. You can split it to gather hydrogen and have oxygen left over, or you can split it to gather oxygen and have hydrogen left over, or you can collect both gasses. The semantics don't matter so much in such a simple case.

My question is, how is this process different from simple electrolysis?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Foxboy]

In this case, if I'm reading the article correctly, they've discovered a catalyst that does it easily at room temperature in neutral pH water. Making it much safer to have one lying about the house, gaseous hydrogen aside.
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[Rev Dark]

It is simply a better electolysis.

So simple to write, but the implications are rather stunning.

It means that you can cheaply and efficiently convert electrical power from any source into a portable fuel source. While solar power is the first and obvious
winner in this, there will still have to be work done on more and more efficient solar collectors.

A refuelling station for hydrogen vehicles could be serviced by an array of solar collectors and only tap into the grid at peak demand periods for fuelling.

There are certainly hurdles to go over, but it is another huge step in leveraging sustainable energy sources.

Shayne

[Morganite]

Cheaper and easier to set up, it sounds like.

I'm not sure about this "solar revolution" part though. Aren't large solar cells still themselves quite expensive to make?

-Morgan.

[Bluemage]

The point is that we have had solar tech for quite a while, and all that needs is refinement to a more cost-effective level. The major problem with using
solar energy on a large scale has generally been the fact that the sun isn't up more than a few hours a day, so any power you get has to be got in a
relatively short part of the day. While large solar cells are painfully expensive, the number of batteries/capacitors/flywheels it'd take to store enough
energy to make a full-scale solar farm capable of supplying power 24/7 is both prohibitively expensive and environmentally murderous.

---

My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.

I've been writing a bit.

[Ankhani]

The expense comes in to play in how you treat the silicon in the solar cells. A Single crystal wafer of Silicon covering a cell is much more efficient than
that of a polycrystalline Silicon, but is also much more expensive as you must cut the pieces from a refined cylindrical ingot rather than a molten lump.
---

The Master said: "It is all in vain! I have never yet seen a man who can perceive his own faults and bring the charge home against himself."

>Analects: Book V, Chaper XXVI

[Wiregeek]

If half of the SOLAR REVOLUTION OMG headlines bore fruit, we'd have solar panels pushing 1kw/sq ft @ 100$/sq ft.

wake me up when something actually is available to the public.
"No can brain today. Want cheezeburger."
From NGE: Nobody Dies, by Gregg Landsman
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5579457/1/NGE_Nobody_Dies

[OpMegs]

Wiredgeek wrote:

---

If half of the SOLAR REVOLUTION OMG headlines bore fruit, we'd have solar panels pushing 1kw/sq ft @ 100$/sq ft.




wake me up when something actually is available to the public.

And Wired would have reason for skepticism. I imagine this would be useless to him at least one month out of the year.
---
"Oh, silver blade, forged in the depths of the beyond. Heed my summons and purge those who stand in my way. Lay
waste."

[Black Aeronaut]

The thing is that this is not so much a solar power revolution as much as it is an ENERGY STORAGE REVOLUTION, thank you.

You can easily apply this in the form of a large-scale electrolosys plant in the middle of a wind farm and WHA-BAM! Now ya don't gotta wait for the
wind-gods to be gratious enough to supply ample wind for your peak power consumption periods. Oh, and how about those off-days when the wind just doesn't
blow that much? This is way beyond just mere solor power. You can apply this to any major or minor power system in whatever form you wish. Why? Because
hydrogen is a beautiful element in that it is just that fucking useful. Burn it in your car. Converted it into electricity. Hell, you can even use it as
cryogenic coolant in a super-conductive power-transmission system, and at the end of the line it can still be used as fuel!

Anymore naysayers?

[Morganite]

Then why does the bloody article say "solar revolution"?

Actually, since you mention it, this is probably *better* for wind than for solar, simply because (as I understand it) the generation equipment can be
cost-effective. A good storage system with a bad generation system is still of limited use, but a good generation system with a good storage system is a
valuable asset.

However, I still don't see it as being a complete replacement for centralized power, even in locations where the wind can generally give you enough energy
to suit your needs. It is, after all, still influenced by the weather, and thus cannot be considered totally reliable. It's still important to have a
backup system. (Also, if they ever get the especially shiny power grids I once read a magazine article about, a person who the weather really favored could
sell their excess energy back to the power company...)

-Morgan. This advance does nothing to improve the operation of my bitchin' meatcar.

[Black Aeronaut]

It says that because the researcher was thinking about solar power and 'synthetic photosynthesis'. But like you said, solar needs to come a little
ways more. Not much, I think, because we got people in Phoenix, AZ that are getting checks from the power company for the energy their solar panels put back
into the grid.

So you want centralized power? Say hello to my little friend, the pebble bed reactor. It is a nuclear reactor that scares the shit out of the oil companies because its inherent passive
safety features render all the active and highly redundant safety features in the common light-water reactor completely useless.

And that article you mentioned... Did it happen to be this one?

This advance does nothing to improve the operation of my bitchin' meatcar.

I guess I need to remind you of this while I'm at it. Just replace that internal combustion engine and generator with
some hydrogen fuel cells and we'll be good to go.

Yeah, I got all this shit sussed out. Now I just need a couple metric fuck-tons of liquid cash to make the revolution happen.

[Morganite]

blackaeronaut wrote:

---

It says that because the researcher was thinking about solar power and 'synthetic photosynthesis'. But like you said, solar needs to come a little


ways more. Not much, I think, because we got people in Phoenix, AZ that are getting checks from the power company for the energy their solar panels put back


into the grid.

It doesn't really sound like photosynthesis at all though...

And that's good for people in Phoenix, but they are from my understanding in an ideal location for solar power. For places with less sun, they'll have
to get a lot cheaper to be economical. After all, whether you're getting a significant amount of energy from them or not, they still end up needing to be
replaced after a while...

So you want centralized power? Say hello to my little friend, the pebble bed reactor. It is a nuclear reactor that scares the shit out of the oil companies because its inherent passive


safety features render all the active and highly redundant safety features in the common light-water reactor completely useless.










And that article you mentioned... Did it happen to be this one?

Anything that works. I'm a fan of redundant backups. (I've seen nuclear with gas/oil/whatever for backup suggested as an ideal system.)

And no. The article I read would have been something in a magazine over ten years ago.

This advance does nothing to improve the operation of my bitchin' meatcar.

I guess I need to remind you of this while I'm at it. Just replace that internal combustion engine and generator with


some hydrogen fuel cells and we'll be good to go.

Now why would a bitchin' meatcar have something as silly as an internal combustion
engine in it? After all, it already has something much sillier...

-Morgan. Infinite oregano!

[Black Aeronaut]

It doesn't really sound like photosynthesis at all though...

It was his inspriation.

And that's good for people in Phoenix, but they are from my understanding in an ideal location for solar power. For places with less sun, they'll
have to get a lot cheaper to be economical. After all, whether you're getting a significant amount of energy from them or not, they still end up needing
to be replaced after a while...

Of course - solar panels do have a ways to go before they become much more efficient, but not too much more, I think.

NEWS FLASH: It has suddenly occured to me that this guy may be trying to go in the direction of non-photovoltaic solar panels - they simply crack the water
directly using this new catalyst he discovered, which would be a helluva lot cheaper to manufacture and even more efficient. He's probably working on it
right now.

Now why would a bitchin' meatcar have
something as silly as an internal combustion engine in it? After all, it already has something much sillier...

Ah. I am enlightened. When yo said 'meatcar' I automatically assumed you meant 'muscle car,' i.e.: Plymouth Baracuda, Chevy GTO,
Ford Mustang...

[TheTwisted1]

I'd just like to ask how exactly they plan to store the hydrogen, because, safety concerns
aside, hydrogen is not exactly easy to store with any real density; the storage problem has been one of the big barriers to a hydrogen economy.

--The Twisted One.

---

"If you
wish to converse with me, define your
terms."

--Voltaire

[Black Aeronaut]

For home use, metal-hydride alloys will suffice. There, you don't have to worry so much over the weight or the size. Don't forget that we live in the
same world where people routinely keep 200-gallon fuel tanks in their homes for heating oil. I don't think a metal-hydride tank or two is going to be much
worse than that.

For automobiles though... I have interesting thoughts. Stay with me here.

Remember that electric Mini Cooper? Speedy little shit that got 80 mpg going
cross-country? Yeah, efficient as all hell. Probably still has it's original gas tank too, since it's total range is 932 miles. Here's the deal.
We use a standard liquid H2 tank system, appropriately nerfed for safety purposes, that feeds a bank of fuel cells. Yes, we take a hit in range, but is it
that bad of a trade off? As efficient as the PML Mini-Cooper is, a hit like that will bring it's range down to about half as much as the standard
ICE-and-generator system. Which is about the same we have for the regular gas guzzlers (and even the gas sippers) we use now.

So, tell me now what the big problem is.

[Foxboy]

*keens in the back of his throat* I wish I had the green stamps to convert my Neon... That would be awesome.
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[Black Aeronaut]

It would be, indeed. It really is such a shame that PML only wants to do business with big companies that want to use their product in bulk. I myself, however,
have every intention of starting a business where such operations are carried out on existing vehicles. Now all I gotta do is convince PML to permit me to be a
licensed distributor/installer of their product. Neons will definitely be zippy, but I think even an old Crown Vic or (*gasp!*) a Cadillac DeVille would have
some aprreciable get-up-and-go! Though the range could definitely be impacted... But then again, those cars have HUGE spaces inside, and not just for the
passengers. Hell, they might even have MORE range than a Neon would.

HERE'S TO THE RETURN OF THE HIDEOUSLY LARGE AMERICAN CAR!!! ^_^

Ye gods, do I have fond memories of my grandfather and his Caddy...

[Foxboy]

*European importer blinking rapidly at the 2012 Cadillac Ginormous*

This is an energy efficient Electric?
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[Black Aeronaut]

Hey, it was European technology that made it happen.

BEHOLD THE FLIGHTS OF FANCY THAT YOU HAVE WROUGHT! ^_^