So, looks like the experiment was a success

[LynnInDenver]

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/04/tor-bo ... year-later

To sum it up, they've seen no difference in piracy rates going DRM free, nor any drop in sales.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[Black Aeronaut]

Too bad outfits like RIAA and MPAA won't budge regardless, citing an apples-to-oranges comparison of industries.

[Jorlem]

But apples and oranges are both fruit...
-----
Stand between the Silver Crystal and the Golden Sea.
"Youngsters these days just have no appreciation for the magnificence of the legendary cucumber."  --Krityan Elder, Tales of Vesperia.

[robkelk]

But apples and oranges are both fruit...

... they're both roughly spherical, they both get juiced often, they're both found in abundance in North America ...

Time for the shareholders to ask the associations why they're throwing away so much money on DRM that has been shown to make no financial difference.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Bob Schroeck]

I think I'll have to write a letter or two to the various SFWA publications praising Tor now...
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[DHBirr]

robkelk wrote:
... they're both roughly spherical, they both get juiced often, they're both found in abundance in North America ...

Meaning they have a lot in common with the corporate fat cats of RIAA and MPAA.  
-----
Big Brother is watching you.  And damn, you are so bloody BORING.

[LynnInDenver]

robkelk wrote:
Time for the shareholders to ask the associations why they're throwing away so much money on DRM that has been shown to make no financial difference.

Well, to be fair, I've figured that, for years, it's not really been about piracy, that's just the convenient strawman they're using.
It's really about control of how the product is consumed, and if they work things right, making it a lot harder for this upstart called the Internet to take away their ability to gatekeep popular culture and determine who the next successes are. Then there's the idea that you have to buy media again and again for every single device you want to have it on ("Got it on disc? We still want you to shell out for the rights to a digital file that will only run on part of the devices on the market. And that doesn't include your phone, that's a whole different file altogether."), and some of them want you to have to pay a microtransaction for every single listen, based on the number of people who can hear it (after all, we don't really own the content we buy, we just own a license on their terms).
And the "always on" DRM schemes of video games aren't to stop piracy, they're to ensure that you step up to the next game when they think the old game needs to be retired from play, and to ensure you have to buy the game from them brand-new, not used from a private party.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[hazard]

In other words it's about outright robbery?

Wouldn't surprise me one bit, except that it's legal.

[LynnInDenver]

Hazard wrote:

---

In other words it's about outright robbery?

Wouldn't surprise me one bit, except that it's legal.

In a sense, yes. Definitely with the RIAA and MPAA, it is about "you want something other than a tiny tiny local audience, we want you to have to sign yourselves over to us."This is, literally, the biggest threat they do face from the internet... we are no longer dependent on them to "make it" in terms of gaining an international audience. The incredible ease of copying (let's face it, digital distribution is a quantum leap compared to all advances before, perhaps even all advances before put together) makes it incredibly easy and cheap to reach people anywhere with your content, as long as they have an internet connection, with no worries about producing, tracking, shipping, and reproducing inventory.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[CrimsonKMR]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/vi ... ce-Problem

"We think there is a
fundamental misconception about piracy. Piracy is almost always a
service problem and not a pricing problem," he said. "If a pirate offers
a product anywhere in the world, 24 x 7, purchasable from the
convenience of your personal computer, and the legal provider says the
product is region-locked, will come to your country 3 months after the
US release, and can only be purchased at a brick and mortar store, then
the pirate's service is more valuable."

There is no coincidence, only necessity....
- Clow Reed

[LynnInDenver]

CrimsonKMR wrote:

---

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/vi ... ce-Problem

"We think there is a
fundamental misconception about piracy. Piracy is almost always a
service problem and not a pricing problem," he said. "If a pirate offers
a product anywhere in the world, 24 x 7, purchasable from the
convenience of your personal computer, and the legal provider says the
product is region-locked, will come to your country 3 months after the
US release, and can only be purchased at a brick and mortar store, then
the pirate's service is more valuable."

This is effectively part of the "control" aspect, although only somewhat. Remember, what pirates can use to move it, people with "legitimate" needs can also use to move their products around. And, also, it means that the Copyright Cartel, by all rights, has to actually be GOOD at customer service now, including knowing at which point their efforts to maintain control and try to freeze out the upstart competition crosses over from "good business" to "you're *BLEEP*ing with the customer, and they're NOTICING."
And for the record, because of the whole fight, I effectively stopped dealing in new media a long time ago. If I feel like I need a particular piece of music that isn't locally made and not through a big label, or I want a copy of a particular movie, I schlep myself down to the nearest indie store that handles used media, and buy it used. And part of me wonders if I should even be doing that.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[robkelk]

If I feel like I need a particular piece of music that isn't locally made and not through a big label, or I want a copy of a particular movie, I schlep myself down to the nearest indie store that handles used media, and buy it used. And part of me wonders if I should even be doing that.

Indie stores are good - you're supporting local businesses (who have at least a clue about what does and doesn't work in your town, and hire local employees) instead of sending your money to a big corporation (who treat every market the same, and hire employees from who-knows-where).

And the First Sale Doctrine pretty much guarantees the Music And Film Industry Associations don't get a cent of the money you spend on used media.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Bob Schroeck]

JFerio wrote:

---

This is, literally, the biggest threat they do face from the internet... we are no longer dependent on them to "make it" in terms of gaining an international audience. The incredible ease of copying (let's face it, digital distribution is a quantum leap compared to all advances before, perhaps even all advances before put together) makes it incredibly easy and cheap to reach people anywhere with your content, as long as they have an internet connection, with no worries about producing, tracking, shipping, and reproducing inventory.

From that file of quotes I've mentioned a few times, which are of dubious provenance but of often appropriate content:

The greatest threat of the personal computer and the Internet is not so-called "piracy", but the loss of control over the creation and distribution of content.  These dangerous, disruptive technologies take the power to dictate American culture out of our hands and put it into the hands of every two-bit loser who thinks he has something worth listening to.  If we cannot control access to the cultural domain, we lose both our revenue stream and our influence over society at large.  -- Cary Sherman, president, RIAA

I just want to make it very clear -- the idea that the people own the culture is extinct.  We own the culture.  Without us there is no culture.  We are the gatekeepers who determine what is allowed into the culture, we are the arbiters who determine what is of value in the culture, we are the distributors who determine who may have the culture, and we are the enforcers who determine who is to be deprived of the culture.  No one has a right to the culture.  They only get temporary access, as we see fit to allow it, at the price we see fit to set.  -- Jonathan Lamy, spokesman for the RIAA

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Black Aeronaut]

Ohhh man... People that think they can own and control culture... that just plain pisses me off.

[hazard]

Wow, that is amazingly patronising and arrogant.

[LynnInDenver]

Hazard wrote:

---

Wow, that is amazingly patronising and arrogant.

Certainly, they haven't actually said it that way... but they have certainly ACTED like they're really the owners of culture, in a lot of ways. And that they want to REMAIN in that position.
Um. No. Put your sabots back on, gentlemen, and figure out how to live in the brave new world. You still have a significant distribution system in place, SELL ON THAT. That is now your product, not the material coming through it. The people producing that material are now among your customers.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[ECSNorway]

JFerio wrote:

---

Hazard wrote:

---

Wow, that is amazingly patronising and arrogant.

Certainly, they haven't actually said it that way... but they have certainly ACTED like they're really the owners of culture, in a lot of ways. And that they want to REMAIN in that position.
Um. No. Put your sabots back on, gentlemen, and figure out how to live in the brave new world. You still have a significant distribution system in place, SELL ON THAT. That is now your product, not the material coming through it. The people producing that material are now among your customers.

Uhm, no, JFerio.
Those are actual quotes Bob quoted.

That is what the RIAA and MPAA actually think and the way they want the world to work.

That's why so many of us call them the MAFIAA.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[Bob Schroeck]

Again, let me emphasize: I came across that file of quotes some years back, exactly where I can't recall now, during the one of the early heights of the RIAA's "let's sue everyone who's ever heard of the Internet" campaign, and I've never been able to verify them. One is explicitly marked as coming from "a private industry conference", so maybe they're a case of "47%", or maybe they're just a propaganda release. Don't put too much stock in them.

That said, I don't mind throwing one or two out every once in a while to make a little trouble. But I'm concerned enough about their authenticity that I have serious qualms about posting the entire file, especially as I've never been able to find the source again, and if they are propaganda, I don't want to take the fall for it.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[LynnInDenver]

ECSNorway wrote:

---

Uhm, no, JFerio.
Those are actual quotes Bob quoted.

That is what the RIAA and MPAA actually think and the way they want the world to work.

That's why so many of us call them the MAFIAA.

I refer to them, personally, as the Copyright Cartel. And I do believe it is the way they want the world to work, because to a certain extent, that's what it looked like they could do from their ivory towers for a rather long time. After all, no one can remember the way things were before recordings and radio, much less before printed music.
But the quotes only sound realistic... although I wouldn't be surprised if the sentiments had been expressed behind closed doors, away from those who don't think like that. On the other hand, all of their actions make it clear they would rather the internet just fade back away and leave their empires intact.
 
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[Black Aeronaut]

Actually, this would probably be the RIAA's and the MPAA's worst nightmare.

Think about it... petabytes of untraceable data, being shipped around the globe... and if you use USPS, they're doubly screwed because it's a government agency. The USPS is not in the business of investigating the contents of mailed data and the very thought that a commercial industry demand that the USPS waste time and money they don't have to do so?  Utterly laughable.

[Bob Schroeck]

JFerio wrote:

---

After all, no one can remember the way things were before recordings and radio, much less before printed music

Not entirely true.  One of the other quotes in that file reads:

Our predecessors fumbled the ball when it came to player pianos, and it ultimately led to our problems today.  We need to revive their idea, that of an industry group which has the final veto power over any new technology that acts as a medium of musical expression.  With our much greater financial and political power, we can accomplish what they failed to do.  -- Barry K. Robinson, Senior Counsel, RIAA

Somebody remembers.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.