All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part IX

[robkelk]

Still not usable, four hours later... "Cannot access the database: Connection refused (81.4.125.112)" error on ATT, the freebie wiki, and Meta.

We're on the net!
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[LynnInDenver]

LulzKiller wrote:

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@JFeri. His known previous experience was at the practical predecessor of Miraheze, Orain, that got hacked/shutdown of course, I believe John left before that happened but other users here would be able to tell you more because I was never at Orain or even aware of it during it's existence..

I was mostly asking because the actions of late are under the assumption of "surely they've jettisoned the toxic behaviors", which doesn't really happen in my experiences. Miraheze is on the cusp of "will they decide toxicity isn't worth not permabanning" or "we've decided that fostering a proper community is worth the potential damage of telling someone to leave", and it's looking like the decision is for the former rather than the latter. Thankfully I actually have no dog in the fight here; I don't have an account on Miraheze, and that's in part because I'm really reluctant these days to create accounts anywhere, particularly places like forums and blogs; I've walked away from several enthusiast forums because I witnessed trolls turning on people for not doing the right actions, and the mods did nothing to shut it down.
And regarding such, can we please no longer put scare quotes around gender? It's a dickish way of showing one's dislike when we already have plenty of better ways to do so, and I'm pretty sure any trans folk passing through here would take one look and decide this forum isn't for them because it would read, on it's face, like deliberately misgendering a potential trans person just because you disagree with her actions. This is not to say Amanda is potentially trans and discovered it via a potential deception, but I'm going to give her at least that benefit of the doubt, the rest of her actions are still to be considered suspect, including the potential maintaining of two identities trying to be admins.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[Labster]

Agreed on the scare quotes thing.  As I've said before, I refer to Amanda with masculine because I believe that it is a person pretending to be female who does not identify as female in real life; it is an entirely false identity.  This is not in any way meant to trivialize trans people, but the "quotes" might make people think badly about us.
Although that I suppose that you can argue that net identities are also people as well, as we all play different roles in different situations.  Is the net version a female if it's associated with a male in meatspace?  But then, completely separated from the body in the wired space, is it even possible for online-only identities like this to even be trans, if they were originally created as female?  That would be like calling Motoko Kusanagi a transwoman because her creator is male.  Or "was male", if the death of the author applies?  Maybe I shouldn't be so hard on Amanda, as it's possible to identify as multiple distinct genders simultaneously.
Ceterum censeo Amandam esse delendam
-- ∇×V

[LulzKiller]

It's more that the policy that the person who calls themselves Amanda makes it so you can't call into question who they are by making it so that you're violating policy by making it about gender identity. Makes me feel like Jordan Peterson but there you go.

My use of quotes pertain solely to that person, tbh the whole trans thing I wasn't really thinking about ever during this; because I'm pretty sure the person who calls themselves Amanda has claimed themselves to be trans or otherwise.

[robkelk]

This is why I refer to the person(?) in question as "LP/Amanda" or "Amanda/LP" interchangeably.

And the question mark is there because LP/Amanda claims to be two different people, despite all evidence I've seen in LP/Amanda's posting style, spelling idiosyncrasies, choice of grammar, and online actions.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[LynnInDenver]

I would say that, in this case, avoid hammering on the gender thing at all with Amanda/LP. They might be one and the same, but there's so much else to hammer on them about at this point, it would be at best potential salt in the wounds. At worst, someone else would come in here and determine this forum is too toxic for them.

Do hammer on them about the idea of sockpuppetting, though. Just, if they've stated a gender, use that, or avoid the use of pronouns entirely.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[Bob Schroeck]

Meanwhile, on the chance that Miraheze will become too toxic to bear at some point, what options do we really have for moving the wiki?
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[robkelk]

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Hosting_services
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Bob Schroeck]

Ah, yeah, you mentioned that before, actually. Forgot about that.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[LulzKiller]

http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Topic:Tp5yvbafv4e1u8b6

New user is letting you know he's going to be making some deletions unless some of you object.

[robkelk]

Thanks. Commented.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[GethN7]

And that page is "Tropes Are Not Lego Blocks"

Of the most common reasons many anti-troper communities mock tropers, and if you ask me, very rightly so, is due to the belief many tropers take tropes like legos and build a story out of them without trying to do anything deeper with them. Worse, they turn tropes into cliches, not a starting point for doing something interesting with the tropes by using them in creative ways.

Another thing that is roundly mocked is when this is crossed over with story analysis. Instead of trying to actually dissect the usage of tropes, they don't really analyze the way the tropes are used, they just give a lego block style trope list for what the story contained while missing the real message, which was how the list of tropes they spit back was used to convey a story.

Basically being so focused on counting all the leaves they forgot they are but small parts of a tree.

Maybe I'm just being a bit critical here, but I cannot shake the feeling this criticism must be consciously addressed, not only for PR reasons, but because those bad practices are bad for writing and story analysis.

[Bob Schroeck]

No, you're right, we need this. I know there's a passage somewhere where we actually say something like "hack writers use tropes like legos, thinking they're complete elements in and of themselves, but they're really just starting points". We need to find that and expand it.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[LulzKiller]

I'm surprised this wasn't proposed sooner, considering that this was a main view from the people of KF for ages to criticise us as well.

you'd imagine Cynical after writing this http://kiwifarms.net/threads/tv-tropes ... st-1994086 and this http://kiwifarms.net/threads/tv-tropes ... st-1984123 would have told his #1 Geth about this

IS THE DELETED TEXT STRIKETHROUGH WORKING ON YUKU

[robkelk]

I think we're all agreed that this is A Thing We Need.

I suspect we would all agree that it should go somewhere in Writer's Tools - if not, then we can work that out later.

Who has time to write the first draft?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Bob Schroeck]

Bob Schroeck wrote:

---

No, you're right, we need this. I know there's a passage somewhere where we actually say something like "hack writers use tropes like legos, thinking they're complete elements in and of themselves, but they're really just starting points". We need to find that and expand it.

And there it is, on the "Mechanics of Writing" page itself:

The first thing that must be understood is that in the process of creating a story—a good story, at least—a trope such as The Hero or Celebrity Lie is, by itself, not a complete element. It is a beginning—a bare-bones outline that is little more than a placeholder. A hack writer might take this placeholder, drop it into his story as-is, and think his work with it is done, but that's one of the things that makes him a hack. The good storyteller starts with a trope and then customizes it—expanding, refining, even subverting it—whatever is required by his vision and his story. The end result will always be an example in some way of the trope, but is never exactly and only the trope. The Hero is not Luke Skywalker, but Luke is recognizably The Hero.(It may help some of our readers to think of this in terms of object-oriented programming. A trope, ultimately, is similar to an ancestor class or an interface. It is not a fully-functional story component by itself, only the framework on which one may be built. The skilled writer takes a trope and extends it, adding required elements and occasionally overriding features of the original to customize its function to the needs of the story he's creating. The result inherits most or all of the properties of the ancestor trope—and is recognizably that trope underneath everything—but is uniquely configured and implemented for the task at hand.)

Whichever of us takes up the challenge, there's a starting point for you.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[robkelk]

No, you're right, we need this. I know there's a passage somewhere where we actually say something like "hack writers use tropes like legos, thinking they're complete elements in and of themselves, but they're really just starting points". We need to find that and expand it.

It's on the main http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Category: ... of_Writing]Mechanics of Writing page:

The first thing that must be understood is that in the process of creating a story—a good story, at least—a trope such as The Hero or Celebrity Lie is, by itself, not a complete element. It is a beginning—a bare-bones outline that is little more than a placeholder. A hack writer might take this placeholder, drop it into his story as-is, and think his work with it is done, but that's one of the things that makes him a hack. The good storyteller starts with a trope and then customizes it—expanding, refining, even subverting it—whatever is required by his vision and his story. The end result will always be an example in some way of the trope, but is never exactly and only the trope. The Hero is not Luke Skywalker, but Luke is recognizably The Hero.

RE-EDIT: ninja'd by Bob!

EDIT: Oh, and an out-of-context quote:
{{quote|If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.|Douglas Adams, ''The Salmon of Doubt: Hitchhiking the Galaxy One Last Time''}}

Re-Re-Edit: How's this for the page image?
%[link=http://www.timeslikethis.com/comic/625]http://www.timeslikethis.com/comic/625]
Caption: This isn't the way to do it
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Labster]

I gave creating Tropes Are Not Legos a shot.  I figured someone had to start the thing.
-- ∇×V

[GethN7]

I gave creating Tropes Are Not Legos a shot.  I figured someone had to start the thing.

Thanks. It looks like a pretty good way to summarize things so far.

[robkelk]

Top 10 wikis on Miraheze:
http://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/User:Rec ... p_10_wikis

So... ATT has five times as many pages (and five times as many images) as the next nine wikis hosted on Miraheze put together. No wonder that we can't keep up with it all.

(And the freebie wiki has a bit of work to do in order to get into the top three...)

---

Oh, look. Is this a surprise to anyone?
http://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/User_tal ... ki_creator
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[LulzKiller]

So everyone who isn't John and Reception seems to not want it?

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On a similar note; feel free to look at how the CoC is formulating : http://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests ... of_Conduct

It should be fun to see how it can be abused.

[robkelk]

Yeah. Hence the comment I just made.

---

So far, the CoC looks good to me.

(CoC? Ia! Ia!)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[LulzKiller]

BTW on the Pozer wiki you ask users to message you so you know they are human and can give them rights of confirmed to edit, but they can't do it if they can't edit your talk page or your own without such rights.

[robkelk]

They can send me a message without being in the Confirmed group - I've received more than one email message in response to that request.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[LulzKiller]

There's an obvious subtext to my reply and I'm basically waiting for you to understand what I'm asking.