Automation in retail

[SilverFang01]

Maybe I am becoming a luddite, but I have a bad feeling about this:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/01/techn...mazon.html

And its not only the jobs issue, which is a big part of my worries with these "advancements", but also the reams of information which will be collected.

[hazard]

To be fair, things like customer/club/discount cards do most of the information collection already. The bigger issue is how all this information will be offered to a single company, of which Facebook in particular has shown recently just how dangerous that is.

And yes, it's likely this will decrease the number of jobs when it comes to the retail business. When steam engines and internal combustion engines became practical we had to reconsider our manufacturing processes, when the assembly line was invented we had to do that again, and the invention of robots that could do the same, repetitive jobs as factory workers forced another rethink. And not just in manufacturing, also in things like mining. But all of these had the disadvantage of needing relatively big robots and systems, that had limited mobility and no capacity to reason and merely did what limited things they've been programmed to do.

Modern technology has changed that. Pathfinding has been automated. Improved battery technology along with electrical engine improvements have solved the mobility issue. Dexterity equal to a human's has always been possible, but now we've got the sensors necessary to perform actual hand eye coordination and track how much pressure is actually asserted. All that has been needed now is putting it onto a single platform that can be afforded at a lower per hour of labour cost than a shelf stocker, and you can start replacing those people with a more efficient alternative.

Of course, at that point the question becomes 'now what,' as you either need to find a new form of labour for those with either no prospects or no interest in a better paying job, or you need to change the way society looks at labour and money.

[Rajvik]

Also remember that retail is where most teens get their first employment in after school and summer jobs. It is also where retirees go for extra income, but when states and government do things like forcibly raise the minimum wage to ridiculous amounts, they force retailers out of business or force them to automate these jobs.

[Labster]

Maybe hazard can explain to us how minimum wage works in the NL, because IIRC it varies based on age. I wonder if that would violate equal protection law here, but other than that, we could still have entry-level jobs at lower wages for people actually entering the workforce.

[hazard]

The (adult) minimum wage is geared towards covering the costs of living for a family (roughly speaking).

The minimum wage for teenagers is geared towards letting them have some extra pocket money without providing enough of an incentive to quit their secondary education to make a living working full time. It also scales upwards as the teenagers grow older.


This is rough, I need to get to work so more on this later if you want.

[robkelk]

The (adult) minimum wage is geared towards covering the costs of living for a family (roughly speaking).

The minimum wage for teenagers is geared towards letting them have some extra pocket money without providing enough of an incentive to quit their secondary education to make a living working full time. It also scales upwards as the teenagers grow older.


This is rough, I need to get to work so more on this later if you want.

However, teenagers are (supposedly) still in school, so they're only working part-time. The same wage per hour comes out to less for teenagers because they're working fewer hours.

[hazard]

However, teenagers are (supposedly) still in school, so they're only working part-time. The same wage per hour comes out to less for teenagers because they're working fewer hours.

That presumes they are in a situation where they have to remain in school or have the opportunity for it. Compulsory education ends after the school year you turn 16.

The minimum wage values (before taxes) varies between 15 and 22 years. Paying full wages at 16 means there's going to be a whole lot of 16 year old people who decide to stop their studies and start working, either because school has no interest to them, because their family's financial situation is that poor or because 1 500 euros (before taxes) is a lot of money in disposable income, especially when you can still mooch on your parent's wages for food and housing.

It also means that quite frankly there's no incentive for companies to hire kids when there's plenty of unemployed adults around who are far more flexible with their time, which is another concern. Yes, in general the young get shafted by the minimum wage law if they want to try to work full time, that's not a flaw. It is intended to encourage them to study for a better paying job, be it a skilled trade or otherwise.

The law for the minimum wage was first made law in 1968 (and was regularly updated, the first version declared the minimum wage 100 guilders per week for a 25 year old), the first compulsory education law in the Netherlands was first made law in 1901 (also updated several times).


From the national government's page, translated for your convenience.

Tabel: minimum wage per
Age month, week day (gross sums per 1 januari 2018)
22+ € 1.578,00 € 364,15 € 72,83
21 € 1.341,30 € 309,55 € 61,91
20 € 1.104,60 € 254,90 € 50,98
19 € 867,90 € 200,30 € 40,06
18 € 749,55 € 172,95 € 34,59
17 € 623,30 € 143,85 € 28,77
16 € 544,40 € 125,65 € 25,13
15 € 473,40 € 109,25 € 21,85

[Labster]

Thanks for the information. Looking at the hourly rate, it seems like you earn:
Age - %
15 - 30%
16 - 35%
17 - 40%
18 - 47,5%
19 - 55%
20 - 70%
21 - 85%
≥22 - 100%

That was actually steeper than I expected. It really does encourage you to stay in school. Of course, the American system is much better:
16 - 100%
university: -$30000 in student loans
graduate school: -$30000 (law: -$50000) (medicine: -$80000)

And we wonder why graduation rates are so low.

[hazard]

Note; Dutch student loans are handled centrally (it's a government program), and it has changed recently. Previously there was a basic purse (no seriously, that's the literal translation, 'beurs' is a somewhat archaic term for a pouch with money) that would be remitted upon successful completion of the study within the study's expected time to completion, which was fairly rare an occurrance. There's also a supplementary loan system that would have to be paid back, period.

Average study loans for graduates appears to be around 11 000 euros in total. Unless you can live in with your parents to study somewhere close by and/or are willing to live on water, bread and your old study books you would need a supplementary loan. Due to changes in the student loan system we're currently seeing a rapid increase in student loan debt.

Thank you so much VVD (Union for Freedom and Democracy), the local equivalent of the Republican party. Your economic policies work wonders.


These days it's all loans and I'm not sure remittance is possible anymore nor what chunk could be remitted.

[Bob Schroeck]

'beurs' is a somewhat archaic term for a pouch with money

Which appears in English embedded in words like "disbursement" and "reimbursement".

Just a bit of irrelevant trivia from your board admin.

[Inquisitive Raven]

'beurs' is a somewhat archaic term for a pouch with money

Which appears in English embedded in words like "disbursement" and "reimbursement".

Just a bit of irrelevant trivia from your board admin.

I expect also "bursar."

[Rod.H]

'beurs' is a somewhat archaic term for a pouch with money

Which appears in English embedded in words like "disbursement" and "reimbursement".

Just a bit of irrelevant trivia from your board admin.

I expect also "bursar."

You ninja'd me as I'd that thought too, though my link to that was from Pratchett with the Unseen University's bursar being mentioned a few times to be known to have said sack on his person & the chancellor asking him to pay the bar tab.

Oh and back to the topic, retail automation is a temperamental thing as most of it is off the shelf hardware being asked to do its thing consistently with no manual fallback if it or another tech it depends on fails as seen down here recently when something took out most of a grocery chain close to a peak time. What the something was I've not found out, though I'm thinking it was telecoms related, which has also taken out banks for a day when the sole coms link failed.

[Black Aeronaut]

IN regards to the whole minimum wage thing, I must beg the question of the economists out there.

What happens when you have a few million families that can't even afford basic subsistence suddenly have the financial means to live modestly comfortable lives? That is, at least enough so that they can realistically not rely on any form of government welfare assistance?

What happens with all that money?

Short answer: it gets spent.

Yes, some of it does get saved, but this is a good thing, too. Banks actually LIKE it when people pump savings accounts full of money. That's money that they're able to pump into the stock market, and all in exchange for a bit of interest paid back to the person that deposited the money.

But by and large? Spent.

Spent on what?

Let's see....

Rent or Home Mortgages. This benefits the housing sector, of course, but also contractors that build houses and the companies that make the materials. And that's a big deal right there.

Food. Children eat a lot. And they need the good stuff. Not instant meals and fast food. This benefits the agricultural sector, as well as food retail chains.

Clothing. That's another big one. Clothes are not like cars or homes. They wear out, are outgrown, and need to be replaced on a regular basis. HOw old is your oldest article of clothing? (Not some family heirloom, please.)

Cars. They have life expectancies. For certain, if they are well cared for they can vastly outlive those expectancies. But the thing is that as a young couple begin having children, their needs in regards to automobiles changes drastically. And being able to afford a loan on a new car lends far more peace of mind than settling for a used car, as there are fewer liabilities in the form of surprise breakdowns. This would be a huge boon to the automotive sector.

Utilities and Telecomunications. These are essentials for certain, but for families with one wage earner bringing home less than $15/hour? You can be certain that they're relying on some kind of assistance, even if it's not to directly help with their utility bills. Instead, they'll get SNAP and/or TANF and/or WIC. Usually all three at once. Additionally, people will be able to upgrade to having better, more efficient appliances, which means fewer and fewer kilowatt-hours used, which reduces strain on the power grid and local generation capacity. And also, not having to deal with the hassles expenses of trying to collect on past-due bills. Yes, those are expenses, and one that takes a noticeable chunk out of their human resources investment.

I can go on and on, but the basic point is that if you really want to make lots of money, you have to be willing to invest that money in the first place. And the payrolls of your employees are the most critically important investment any business owner makes. Because if no one gets paid, then no is a customer and no one is making money.

[SilverFang01]

Humans Need Not Apply by CGP Grey

Makes one think.