Abortions for Some, Miniature Irish Flags for Others.

[Dartz]

As a bit of background. When the US was launching the Space Shuttle on its first flights, the Soviet Union was busy ossifiying and the New Wave was breaking across Europe's music scene, the Roman Catholic Church decided that it wasn't too happy with its influence on Irish society beginning to wane. The Magdalene laundries were still humming along, but there were some signs of reality breaking through A year before The Kerry Babies, and despite the Government opposing the motion, The Eighth Amendment to the Irish Constituion was passed by the good Catholic People of Ireland.

Effectively, it enshrined the prohibition on abortion into the Constitution.

It has somehow resited attempts to repeal it ever since, despite the best effort of everyone. Unfortunately with Brexit now a thing, the usual workaround may soon no longer be possible.

The next attempt comes in just over a fortnight.

And it's already gotten far more vicious than the usual.

There's no escaping the fact that one side in particular is getting funding from abroad. It's getting a lot of support from certain parts of the world were interfering in foreign referendums is the done thing.  Or as one Twitterbot so eloquently put it, "If they repeal the Eighth, what's to Stop them going after the Second?"

Right up until Google and Youtube shut that down. Even before that, the malign influence of foreign funding the campaign was visible across the intrnet in advertising spaces....   The Ad campaign has been utterly massive on a level that I haven't evber seen.

Needless to say, one side and one side alone has been screaming about it being unfair that they can't tap their massive base in that far foreign land. One is so utterly divorced from the reality of what's happening in the State that it still feels like it has a right to interfere in it becoming anything more than what their granpappy remembers it being.

... or maybe I'm just being bitter about how many canvassers have accents that're very distinctly west of fucking Garraun Point, who think they have a god given right to interfere.


Anyway. Some Choice headlines have already been generated:
Sex Slavery will be Normalised
Graphic posters outside Maternity hospital of aboiirted fetuses
Posters being faked.



But at least I wont have to look at dead babies on Reddit anymore.

[hazard]

Would that base be Russia or the Vatican?

What? It's a valid question, Russia is surprisingly Orthodox Christian fundamentalist. The Catholic Church's opinion on the matter is known.

[Norgarth]

I think he means Irish Americans blindly contributing funds to various lobby groups in Ireland

[DHBirr]

hazard, I think Norgarth is almost certainly right.  I looked up Garraun Point, and it seems west of it there's lots and lots of Atlantic Ocean.  Sure, if you go west far enough, you'll eventually come to Russia and then can veer a bit south to Italy, but you'll definitely reach Canada (and the Divided States of America, if you swerve south) first.

[Norgarth]

that 'If they repeal the 8th amendment what's to stop them going after the 2nd?' line he mentioned was a big clue (because of course he average American is going to assume another country has the exact same amendments as the USA, in the exact same order )

I have no idea what Ireland's 2nd amendment is about, nor do I know what America's 8th amendment is about, and in that I am likely no worse off than the average American.

[robkelk]

...
I have no idea what Ireland's 2nd amendment is about,

A whole bunch of stuff, including "restrictions on the right to habeas corpus, an extension of the right of the government to declare a state of emergency, changes to provisions on the reference of bills to the Supreme Court by the President and various changes that were needed to bring the official Irish text of the constitution into line with the English text." Or, at least, so says Wikipedia.

nor do I know what America's 8th amendment is about, and in that I am likely no worse off than the average American.

Prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment, and a few related items. Again, according to Wikipedia.

Pretty important stuff in both cases, actually.

(Ah, I'm so lucky to live in Canada, where the Constitution has never been amended. )

[Labster]

I have no idea what Ireland's 2nd amendment is about, nor do I know what America's 8th amendment is about, and in that I am likely no worse off than the average American.

Wait, abortion counts as "cruel and unusual punishment"?  And yeah, I had to look up number 8.  At first I thought the US 8th was maybe the one on quartering soldiers, but that's the 4th.

It's kind of surprising how some of the amendments are central to our culture, and others are basically irrelevant.  The Ninth Amendment in the U.S. is basically the exception that proves the rule.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people

[hazard]

Not really. An 'exception that proves the rule' means that a given case or event tests a rule. The US 9th Amendment to the Constitution is 'just because we wrote all these rights down doesn't mean the list is exhaustive, and does not mean that just because any right we did not write down is not on the list it may be used as a reason to deny such an unwritten right to anyone.' It's not an exception clause, it's an inclusion clause.

[robkelk]

Back to the original topic (sort of)... the annual "March for Life" is taking place in Ottawa today. Here's hoping I don't need to go downtown.

[Dartz]

They do get in the way some.

There is a proposal to allow citizens abroad to vote in referendums. I think, one look at the funding of this campaign, and how it's being run, should tell you everything you need to know about why that's a bad idea. You have millions of people who hjave no real understanding of the country beyond it being the hole their grandparents left - and sometimes it feels like they get dissapointed when it turns out it's not the utter hole they theyve been brought up thinking they escaped.

It is telling that only one side in the referendum is complaining about a private organisation imposing a ban on adverts funded by non-Irish entities - and are calling it an attempt to rig the election and are basically admitting that foreign-funded advertising has been a cornerstone of their campaign. If you're relying on metric fucktons of foreign money to buy the referendum, there's probably a lack of substance there somewhere, maybe it's not the people stopping you from doing it who're rigging the thing.

But that Irish American money is still being felt. There's 5 'No' leaflets been dropped in the door in the last week. While the ones through the door paint a picture of a happy mammy cradling a tummy  - they save the graphically aborted fetusus for the maternity hospitals. A handy thing to be confronted with when not everyone going to the Rotunda is going there for the good news....  


---

As a historical curiositry, the amendments to the Irish constitution have been as follows

Irish Constitutional Amednments

• The Constution Iteself, by vote, in 1937 - to replace the earlier Free State constution which was a bit 'East of Duiblin'.....
  
• The 1st enabled the State to declare an emergency for War - even in the event that the War did not involve the State directly. It was passed on Sept 2nd, 1939....
  
• The 2nd, was as described above. A lot of detritus about the Supreme Court, the Emergency, Habeus Corpus and language changes.
  
• The 3rd, permitted the State to join the EEC - it passed in 1972
  
• The 4th, also from 1972, lowered the vote to 18 years old
  
• The 5th, formalised the seperation of church and state by removing any reference to the 'special place for the Catholic Church, or acknowledgement of other churches, from the Constitution
  
• The 6th, Was to reverse a judicial finding on adoption
  
• The 7th, adjusted how the Seanad could be elected, but it's never been actually enacted
  
• The 8th, constitutionally prohibited abortion - except in the case of danger to the mother
  
• The 9th, allows citizens of other countries to elect to the Dail (So if you live somewhere, you've a say in things)
  
• The 10th - The Single European Act
  
• The 11th - The Maastricht Treaty
  

• The 13th explicitly allows travel outside the state for the express purposes of obtaining an abortion.
  
• The 14th explicitly states that information about abortion is permitted
  
• The 15th removed the constitutional ban on divorce.
  
• The 16th allows a court to refuse bail if it thinks someone will committ an offense while on Bail
  
• The 17th allows the High Court to order the disclosure of cabinet discussions
  
• The 18th The Amsterdam treaty
  
• The 19th. The Good Friday agreement
  
• The 20th. Local Government Elections to occur every 5 years. Local Government given constutional standing rather than just being 'A thing'
  
• The 21th. Capital Punishment, and legislation for the same, constitutionally forbidden. Even in an Emergency.
  
• The 23th. The State ratifies the ICC
  
• The 26th. The Nice Treaty at it's second attempt
  
• The 27th.  Constitutional jus soli abolished.
  
• The 28th. The Lisbon Treaty at it's second attempt.
  
• The 29th. Judges could have their pay reduced.
  
• The 30th. The European Fiscal Compact
  
• The 31th. The Rights of the Child
  
• The 33th. A new Court of Appeal
  
• The 34th. Same sex marriage.
  

A lot of them are EU treaties. An odd quirk of constutioinal interpretation has required the government to put treaties that modify the foreign relations of the State to the people.

As for the dumpster in the back alley, we have some interesting ones too.

We've a pair of failed EU treaties:

• The 24th. Failed Treaty of Nice. It was time for Second Referendum
  
• The first 28th, Failed Lisbon and another Second Referendum.
  

It has lately become the done thing to vote No to the EU treaties to embarrass the government in front of the big countries and remind them we still have a say in the full knowledge that there'll be a second referendum soon enough. That might not happen in the next one for obvious reasons, after a lot of Breitish people tried it and were surprised that 'Second Referendum' is an Irish thing and not a British thing. The utter schadenfreude of Brexit makes it so worth it

An honest question on what form we want the government to take and whether on element served a worthwhile purpose or not:

• The 32th asked if the Senate were to be abolished in favour of just having a Single House. The purpose of the Senate as debated, and it was decided to keep it around. If only because nobody wanted to see David Norris on the Dole. The Government accepted the vote with class and decorum and carried on.
  

We have the ignored and uncarred about:

• The 35th, which was to lower the minimal presidential age was proposed alongside the thirty-fourth. Nobodyu cared. Everyone voted No just because they had to demonstrate they could, life carried on
  

On the other hand, we've also had some Government power grubbing being stopped by the people....

• The first 3rd - an attempt by the largest party, and the party that started the Civil War - to institute a First PAst the Post system. Ir was defeated.
  
• The other failed 3rd - an attempt by that same party - to enact a form of constutionally gererymandering in favour of its rural base
  
• The first 4th - another attempt by that same party to intitute FPTP voting. There were no further attemptes.
  
• The failed 30th - which was supposed to overturn a court ruling that determined the Constution prevented the government from making findings on individuals and their conduct in inquiries. The long and the short of it was that the wording was stupid, and that it contained the phrase 'the appropriate balance between the rights of persons and the public interest' which ruffled feathers.
  

And Finally, the Catholic Church rearing it's head again...

• The First 10th, to permit Divorce was roundly defeated in 1986.
  
• The 12th was proposed  after the Supreme Court ruled that suicide counted as a threat to life for the purposes of the Eighth. It would've constitutionally removed suicide as a danger to the mother, with reference to the Eighth
  
• The other 25th was a repeat of the Twelfth with a few years to reconsider....
  

[Rajvik]

I am staying out of this discussion for several reasons, the two most prominent being,
1. Not my country.
2. Not my body.

Even if my questionable morality had anything to say on the subject in general, those two reasons are enough for me to not be involved.

Add to that, arguing anything with an Irishman is a good way to end up hurt.

[Epsilon]

https://liveblog.irishtimes.com/d1719622...dum-count/

Good for personal choice.

[Dartz]

It's a fairly enthusiastic Yes, alright.

The sheer scale of it has taken the country by surprise. To the point where the exit polls were assumed to be wrong at first.

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2018/05...eferendum/

There's some interesting statistics that can be dug down. The majority of voters still identified as Catholic. Howerver, few 'Yes' voters regularly attended mass . On the other hand, No Voters were most likely to be elderly, and attend Mass at least once a week.

Meanwhile
American Conservatives who moved to Ireland claim referendum was rigged.

This, of course, ignores the constant reminders to ensure you were on the register of electors in the months beforehand (It takes 5 minutes online) because the process can make mistakes, and then subsequently, that there is actually a voter I.D. requirement that goes beyond just handing in the voting card at the desk.

Or, how about lying to immigration officials to come in and campaign

There're anecdotal reports of Americans setting up shop outside polling stations, in contravention of regulations, and being encouraged to move along by police before a posse of locals descended upon them.