All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XIV

[robkelk]

He keeps thinking that the status quo will remain, and the fact we failed to implement the subpage immediately is partially at fault for that.

Yeah, that's our fault for not following through immediately. All I can say there is that I thought that cleaning up one trope was less important than getting headers onto trope and work pages and getting license information onto image pages - my bad.

Now, going ahead with it before the vote might be wasted work - and those headers and licenses still need to be done.

[LulzKiller]

As someone who also worked on headers and licenses, I am not disputing the importance of their work, but it didn't help that it coincided with all this CM bullshit.

Also can someone tell me who https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Special:Co...lyNadesico is? They've made a new account only to talk to me with practically the exact same proposal as Doc.

[GethN7]

I've had enough:

https://allthetropes.org/w/index.php?tit...4ur7e5ru6q

Consider me in favor of burning the field. I worked really hard to be the mediator, willing to reach an accommodation, wanting to find a middle ground to cause everyone the least upset, but if THIS is how that effort will be rewarded, I'm more than happy to take a stand for what buys some long term peace, and if that means torching the examples from this tare ridden field called the Complete Monster trope, then so be it.

EDIT:

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Special:Co...DocColress

This ends now, dammit.

[LulzKiller]

I'm abstaining from CM future vote because I don't really care now. My subpage suggestion was my compromise, and if he is on both self-imposed and externally posed exile, it becomes redundant.

I only hope that this will lead to a more welcome atmosphere for new users, who don't have to see edit wars amongst admins.

[GethN7]

Small update, since I'm effectively the only one maintaining our Wikia branch, I've already taken the liberty of rendering the Complete Monster trope exampleless there.

Whether we do it on ATT Miraheze is still to be decided, but given most of the sockpuppets originated in my personal backyard, I want that to END.

[Bob Schroeck]

Geeze. Sleep late and then go on an all-day shopping expedition with your wife, and the entire wiki explodes.

I feel partly responsible for everything escalating as it did -- I was up way too late last night and feeling very irritated at DocColress and his hysterical shrieking about the impending end of the wiki if we didn't do exactly as he said and called him out on it -- a couple times. Which only drove him to new extremes of hysteria. Honestly I should have dealt with him more diplomatically, but this mess has been going on for weeks in one form or another and I've gone from "I don't care about Complete Monster" to "burn it to the ground and salt the earth", in large part because of him.

I support any action that will deny the CM loons a reason to crap in our sandbox -- whether that's removing examples or removing the trope, I'm ok with it.

[Bob Schroeck]

By the way... does anyone else think "LilyNadesico", who came out of nowhere in the last few days to argue DocColress's side, sounds a whole lot like him?

[GethN7]

By the way... does anyone else think "LilyNadesico", who came out of nowhere in the last few days to argue DocColress's side, sounds a whole lot like him?

I can confirm,no, they are not a sock.

LilyNadesico is a TV Tropes alumni and even writes fanfic on Fanfiction.Net, I even read some of it.

Doc called in a buddy to argue his side, that's all.

[Labster]

Posted my opinion, expecting all sides to call me a complete fucking moron. I just felt like no one is even trying to think laterally, so I should try.

EDIT: ducking autocomplete censors

[Bob Schroeck]

Doc called in a buddy to argue his side, that's all.

Fair enough. I noticed some similarity of phrasing; Doc probably just gave them some speaking points.

[robkelk]

Posted my opinion, expecting all sides to call me a complete fucking moron. I just felt like no one is even trying to think laterally, so I should try.

EDIT: ducking autocomplete censors

(goes and reads)

Uncouple the trope from its current name? That's crazy enough that it just might work. I'm tempted to add that to the vote as an alternate to what I proposed (option 1: my idea; option 2: this idea; option 3: both ideas (which I wouldn't expect to get any votes); option 4: status quo), but would that require postponing the vote by a day or two in order to be fair?

---

Changing gears so hard the clutch breaks...

We have a lot of "Heartwarming" pages - over 500, the maximum that DPL3 will show at a time - that don't use the "Heartwarming" template. Does anybody have a working bot that could add that template to the pages? I've already determined that the template works just fine even if it's at the very end of the page.

[robkelk]

Happy Thanksgiving, everybody! Here's a present: A new list of something that needs to be fixed.

EDIT: Sorry, no - despite this template apparently being coded correctly, the results are incorrect; it's showing all pages in the category whether they use the header template or not. This one has been commented out until I can debug it.

[GethN7]

Okay, I really want to keep the Wikia crap away from us, but I just had to report this because TV Tropes could get mad at us:

https://tvtropes.fandom.com/wiki/Special:WikiActivity

This was set up by the same idiots who can't leave the Complete Monster trope alone, and they are ripping off our Wikia fork without attribution and their use of TV Tropes name could get them mad.

I already reported this to Wikia to keep them from getting anyone into trouble, least of all them or us, have no doubt they'll do so.

Leaving notice with TV Tropes I'm reporting this to make clear we have NOTHING to do with it as well.

Note: I wouldn't mind if they did an XML dump and/or attributed our content in the edit reasons, but they won't, and their name is a trademark battle waiting to happen we could get dragged into, so I'm dealing with this ASAP.

[robkelk]

Happy Thanksgiving, everybody! Here's a present: A new list of something that needs to be fixed.

EDIT: Sorry, no - despite this template apparently being coded correctly, the results are incorrect; it's showing all pages in the category whether they use the header template or not. This one has been commented out until I can debug it.

Found and fixed the bug just before I had to leave for Thanksgiving dinner. This list works now.

[Labster]

So um, Doc is asking me to unban him. Can anyone give me a good reason why we gave an indefinite ban? Or rather, a good reason not to shorten that ban from eternity to a month? I mean yeah, he's annoying, but that's because he's so autistic he hasn't figured out that antagonizing everyone doesn't win arguments.

[Bob Schroeck]

Have you seen some of the things he was posting on individual admins' pages? He utterly flipped when I said I thought getting rid of Complete Monster entirely was a good idea (even though I acknowledged it was unlikely to happen) and demanded of Geth that I be tempbanned for it, shrilly and hysterically accusing me of emotional instability for not agreeing with his point of view. Doc is as much part of the problem as any of the other loons who obsess over Complete Monster. I do not want to work with him as a fellow admin, and I have serious concerns about simply co-existing with him as a user.

[Labster]

Nevertheless, I'm considering it.  Here's what I emailed him:

Thanks for your email.

I'm still thinking about unbanning you, or at least reducing the duration from "eternity" to something more reasonable.  But consider writ of certiorari granted.

But the last time we spoke ( https://allthetropes.org/wiki/User_talk:Labster ), I asked you to try not making things worse.  Yet here we are, again.  Did you read HPMoR like I asked?  I had a very specific reason to mention that fic -- first, it's free, so no excuse for not reading it.  Second, one of the main things that Professor Quirrell teaches rationalist!Harry in that book is how to lose.

And that's what I think is missing from you: you don't know how to lose.  You don't know when to lose.  I can't explain it as well as the book does, but when you start to get into a situation where you won't win, you need to get out of that situation fast.  Don't dig yourself in deeper; just fail when it doesn't cost you much.  You could have tried to be accommodating back when people first had issues with some of the deletions and new user bans.  But instead you've managed to turn a moderator rights into a ban, and you're trying to convince me to overrule every member of the wiki staff because they're all treating you unfairly.

Really?  That's the argument you're going with?

You and all of the mods have said stupid things in this mess, but your strategy seems to be to keep pushing people's buttons until they agree with you.  And then once they react poorly, holding it up as evidence you've been mistreated.  Instead, well, you could have just agreed to a little change in behavior, a small loss, back at the beginning of this.  Or in the middle of this.  Or at any time before the permaban.  Before your post where you say, and I paraphrase, "fuck all y'all, I'm leaving."  But you obviously didn't want to leave, or you wouldn't have emailed me.

So yeah, of course GethN7 overreacted with the permaban.  But I can't blame him.  When you work with people, you need to find common ground.  You can't win every time.  You try to compromise, and occasionally have to lose and accept your loss.  If you can't do that, you can't be part of the community.  Being accepting of group decisions is a fundamental requirement of belonging to any community, and if you can't do that, then there's really no point in removing the ban.

Now if you can learn to accept group decisions, we have something to talk about.  I can and will overrule everyone else here, and they'll abide by it.  But understand this: in trying to win your argument, you've burned every single bridge, save one.  This is your last appeal.

So take some time, and think about what you're going to do next.  If you choose to be part of the community, I would begin with an apology.

[GethN7]

Nevertheless, I'm considering it.  Here's what I emailed him:

Thanks for your email.

I'm still thinking about unbanning you, or at least reducing the duration from "eternity" to something more reasonable.  But consider writ of certiorari granted.

But the last time we spoke ( https://allthetropes.org/wiki/User_talk:Labster ), I asked you to try not making things worse.  Yet here we are, again.  Did you read HPMoR like I asked?  I had a very specific reason to mention that fic -- first, it's free, so no excuse for not reading it.  Second, one of the main things that Professor Quirrell teaches rationalist!Harry in that book is how to lose.

And that's what I think is missing from you: you don't know how to lose.  You don't know when to lose.  I can't explain it as well as the book does, but when you start to get into a situation where you won't win, you need to get out of that situation fast.  Don't dig yourself in deeper; just fail when it doesn't cost you much.  You could have tried to be accommodating back when people first had issues with some of the deletions and new user bans.  But instead you've managed to turn a moderator rights into a ban, and you're trying to convince me to overrule every member of the wiki staff because they're all treating you unfairly.

Really?  That's the argument you're going with?

You and all of the mods have said stupid things in this mess, but your strategy seems to be to keep pushing people's buttons until they agree with you.  And then once they react poorly, holding it up as evidence you've been mistreated.  Instead, well, you could have just agreed to a little change in behavior, a small loss, back at the beginning of this.  Or in the middle of this.  Or at any time before the permaban.  Before your post where you say, and I paraphrase, "fuck all y'all, I'm leaving."  But you obviously didn't want to leave, or you wouldn't have emailed me.

So yeah, of course GethN7 overreacted with the permaban.  But I can't blame him.  When you work with people, you need to find common ground.  You can't win every time.  You try to compromise, and occasionally have to lose and accept your loss.  If you can't do that, you can't be part of the community.  Being accepting of group decisions is a fundamental requirement of belonging to any community, and if you can't do that, then there's really no point in removing the ban.

Now if you can learn to accept group decisions, we have something to talk about.  I can and will overrule everyone else here, and they'll abide by it.  But understand this: in trying to win your argument, you've burned every single bridge, save one.  This is your last appeal.

So take some time, and think about what you're going to do next.  If you choose to be part of the community, I would begin with an apology.

I'm personally willing to reconsider the permablock in a few months at least, assuming he keeps his nose clean and stays out of further trouble. I admit I was a bit brutal with the permablock, but this nonsense needed to stop.

Once all the raw feelings have died down and we've all adjusted to the changes, I'm not unwilling to reconsider the length, but for now, I believe a harsh lesson is the best reminder, based on what we've dealt with prior.

[Labster]

Well, he's already replied to me. Twice. Not a good sign, since every time I talk to him I tell him to slow down and think.

I'm feeling like unless he has an epiphany of empathy a one month ban is not long enough. The second email is kind of a rambly one where he goes into how Complete Monster is perfectly clear and it's not his fault that everyone else can't understand it. He should get a job on Boeing's legal team.

[robkelk]

Nevertheless, I'm considering it.  Here's what I emailed him:

Thanks for your email.

I'm still thinking about unbanning you, or at least reducing the duration from "eternity" to something more reasonable.  But consider writ of certiorari granted.

But the last time we spoke ( https://allthetropes.org/wiki/User_talk:Labster ), I asked you to try not making things worse.  Yet here we are, again.  Did you read HPMoR like I asked?  I had a very specific reason to mention that fic -- first, it's free, so no excuse for not reading it.  Second, one of the main things that Professor Quirrell teaches rationalist!Harry in that book is how to lose.

And that's what I think is missing from you: you don't know how to lose.  You don't know when to lose.  I can't explain it as well as the book does, but when you start to get into a situation where you won't win, you need to get out of that situation fast.  Don't dig yourself in deeper; just fail when it doesn't cost you much.  You could have tried to be accommodating back when people first had issues with some of the deletions and new user bans.  But instead you've managed to turn a moderator rights into a ban, and you're trying to convince me to overrule every member of the wiki staff because they're all treating you unfairly.

Really?  That's the argument you're going with?

You and all of the mods have said stupid things in this mess, but your strategy seems to be to keep pushing people's buttons until they agree with you.  And then once they react poorly, holding it up as evidence you've been mistreated.  Instead, well, you could have just agreed to a little change in behavior, a small loss, back at the beginning of this.  Or in the middle of this.  Or at any time before the permaban.  Before your post where you say, and I paraphrase, "fuck all y'all, I'm leaving."  But you obviously didn't want to leave, or you wouldn't have emailed me.

So yeah, of course GethN7 overreacted with the permaban.  But I can't blame him.  When you work with people, you need to find common ground.  You can't win every time.  You try to compromise, and occasionally have to lose and accept your loss.  If you can't do that, you can't be part of the community.  Being accepting of group decisions is a fundamental requirement of belonging to any community, and if you can't do that, then there's really no point in removing the ban.

Now if you can learn to accept group decisions, we have something to talk about.  I can and will overrule everyone else here, and they'll abide by it.  But understand this: in trying to win your argument, you've burned every single bridge, save one.  This is your last appeal.

So take some time, and think about what you're going to do next.  If you choose to be part of the community, I would begin with an apology.

He might not be able to learn how to lose, at least, not in this situation. How much of his self-image does he have tied up in that trope?

And DocColress has been very good at apologizing: he's apologized to me at least twice, immediately after another mod told him to and immediately before showing he'd learned nothing from the circumstances leading to him being told to apologize. He seems incapable of understanding what an apology is beyond the form of the words, let alone what an apology means. I would be happy - and surprised - to be proven wrong here.

I'm personally willing to reconsider the permablock in a few months at least, assuming he keeps his nose clean and stays out of further trouble. I admit I was a bit brutal with the permablock, but this nonsense needed to stop.

Once all the raw feelings have died down and we've all adjusted to the changes, I'm not unwilling to reconsider the length, but for now, I believe a harsh lesson is the best reminder, based on what we've dealt with prior.

Judging from the comments posted in this thread and on the wiki, the only one of the moderation team who is not at or past the end of his or her patience with this situation is Labster.

We all need a time-out. Including Doc.

However, we need to show that we're serious about accepting the will of the majority. No matter how the vote goes, we need to implement the decision: if we're getting rid of the examples, then we need to do it immediately (after making a backup of the pages); if we aren't, then we need to implement the previously-reached consensus and make CM a subpage type. Status quo is no longer an option.

Well, he's already replied to me.  Twice.  Not a good sign, since every time I talk to him I tell him to slow down and think.

I'm feeling like unless he has an epiphany of empathy a one month ban is not long enough.  The second email is kind of a rambly one where he goes into how Complete Monster is perfectly clear and it's not his fault that everyone else can't understand it.  He should get a job on Boeing's legal team.

I'm guessing here: was the first reply an apology? If it was, then he's showing the same pattern of behaviour that he showed toward me earlier.

[Bob Schroeck]

If it weren't for the fact that he's been active on the wiki for almost seven years, I'd ask if he was, like, twelve years old. He seems to have that level (or less) of socialization and maturity.

[Labster]

I'm guessing here: was the first reply an apology? If it was, then he's showing the same pattern of behaviour that he showed toward me earlier.

Well, close.  The first email was an attack on Bob and Rob followed by an apology. But the apology has the feel of quid pro quo, you know.

If I am unblocked, I have already determined that the first thing I'd do is make a public apology before the entire Wiki. I will absolutely grovel at the community's feet and beg them for forgiveness if that's what it will take. I'll never touch Complete Monster again if it means it can at least stay up as it is right now.

That's an awful lot of bargaining.

All I was ever trying to do was find common ground with you people. All I ever wanted was to be part of group decisions, even if you seem to think I'm a walking case of The Complainer Is Always Wrong. I was willing to give these guys every chance in the world, if only they could've given me that same chance.

It gets worse from there.  I don't think it's fair to anyone to publish the whole letter.

I'm not at my wits end, but I'm not seeing behavior that would indicate ability to integrate with the community.  Or any community.  I suppose it's not really all that surprising that someone obsessed with identifying villains would have a black and white view of other humans.

[Bob Schroeck]

Basically he's still trying to get things his way. It's like you said -- he cannot accept that he's losing or lost, and he's still trying to finagle a way to get what he wants and only what he wants.

[robkelk]

It gets worse from there.  I don't think it's fair to anyone to publish the whole letter.

No need, as far as I'm concerned. What little you did share shows me he hasn't changed at all.

[robkelk]

I've called for the vote. One day should be plenty of time, considering how active the discussion was.