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How Does an RBMK Reactor Explode
RE: How Does an RBMK Reactor Explode
#26
(09-08-2019, 10:03 PM)hazard Wrote: IIRC the world's biggest (and only) long term nuclear waste storage is supposed to be build in some far off corner of the USA in an inhospitable landscape. The people living there love the idea of oh so many federal dollars for keeping an eye on the world's deepest pit. Every community around that would see the nuclear transports roll past? Not so much, which is why that nuclear waste storage facility isn't operational.

Hrm.

Here's a wild thought.

Build the powerplants adjacent to the nuclear waste facility and use the superconductive powerlines to transmit the energy into the various regions.

Of course, that would never happen because why on Earth would you do something so sensible?</s>
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RE: How Does an RBMK Reactor Explode
#27
Do we have superconductive power lines yet?

if not, then we still need to do things the current way.
--
Rob Kelk

Sticks and stones can break your bones,
But words can break your heart.
- unknown
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RE: How Does an RBMK Reactor Explode
#28
(rimshot) Big Grin
--
‎noli esse culus
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RE: How Does an RBMK Reactor Explode
#29
The cryogenic technology has been there for some time.  We use it in MRI machines all the time now.  And there's even been a few pilot programs here in there, as mentioned in the following article:
https://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?secti...id=1320733

The trouble is, it seems, is that electricity providers just don't want to pony up the cash.  Why fix what isn't broken, after all.</s>
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RE: How Does an RBMK Reactor Explode
#30
Well, there'[s also the factor that cryogases are rather dangerous to be around let alone directly work with, added on to the expected issues of dealing with high voltage and current. Keeping a significant volume topped up with them would be expensive to operate as well, and depending on how much power it takes to run the support equipment might not even end up any better than conventional copper wires, though I'd want to see some numbers on that before even beginning to assert that such a conclusion is accurate.
--
‎noli esse culus
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RE: How Does an RBMK Reactor Explode
#31
I've started Part III for this on The Liquidation a couple of times - if only to fill out the ATT page (No, I haven't forgotten it). There is more to come.


The RBMK reactor was flawed from the beginning, but that's fine. The problem with all of these advanced nuclear technolgies is that the effort to eliminate each and every risk gets extraordinary expensive and convoluted to the point where the cost inflates massively.

One may argue that the consequences of an accident justify such a thing, but the real cause of the Chernobyl disaster wasn't that the reactor exploded - but that the explosion wasn't contained. Legasov remarks on this in his memoirs - that the one thing that must be done for any potentially dangerous technology, is to put it into a box it can't get out of, no matter how safe you think you've made it. Because an accident that can happen, will happen.

That said, RBMK is a perfectly valid thing to build if you want the benefits of nuclear power - or think that the potential environment cost is less compared to the realised environmental costs of the alternative. Just build with your eyes open and make sure everyone involved knows the dangers the technology poses. It's one thing to tell people to be mindful of a limit - and quite another to explain to them why the limit exists.

Then again, the modifications to eliminate the positive SCRAM are reasonably basic - at its most basic an operating proceedure change to the control rod schedule to prevent the tip-effect. Once it's known about a skilled operator can work around it. Eliminating the positive void coefficient requires higher enrichment and more absorbers in the core which removes one of the key advantages of the design. But the void coefficient only appears if you've chewed through the majority of your fuel - running a core with fresher fuel and reprocessing on a short cycle will solve that. Fresher fuel also mitigates the tip-effect.

Also A translation of Legasov's tapes

I love the smell of rotaries in the morning. You know one time, I got to work early, before the rush hour. I walked through the empty carpark, I didn't see one bloody Prius or Golf. And that smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole carpark, smelled like.... ....speed.

One day they're going to ban them.
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RE: How Does an RBMK Reactor Explode
#32
(09-10-2019, 11:50 AM)classicdrogn Wrote: Well, there'[s also the factor that cryogases are rather dangerous to be around let alone directly work with, added on to the expected issues of dealing with high voltage and current. Keeping a significant volume topped up with them would be expensive to operate as well, and depending on how much power it takes to run the support equipment might not even end up any better than conventional copper wires, though I'd want to see some numbers on that before even beginning to assert that such a conclusion is accurate.

It's not people actually perform work on energized high-voltage lines.  The same applies here.

As for keeping the system "topped up" with cryogenic coolant, that brings us back around again to using liquid hydrogen as the coolant.  Though volatile, it has the benefit of being lighter than air so it's easy to disperse.

Other cryogenic gasses are Helium isotopes, Nitrogen, Neon, Argon, Oxygen, and Fluorine.

Helium is prohibitively expensive due to its rarity.  Neon and Argon are inert, but also present asphyxiation hazards in the event of a leak (and are expensive in large quantities).  Oxygen is highly corrosive and makes any environment it's concentrated in into a literal powder keg.  And Fluorine is just plain nasty.  The only good thing about it is that it'd react and combine with everything nearby until there's no more left, making it (relatively) safe to clean up after the fact... but holy hell the damage it'd do in the process.

Nitrogen is about the safest thing to use - it's literally common as dirt and the common form (N₂) reacts with few things.  But it would still present an asphyxiation hazard, and is otherwise useless in this application for anything other than a coolant.

Which brings us back to Hydrogen.  Easy to produce, abundant, useful as an energy medium (fuel), and lighter-than-air so it doesn't collect and pool in low-lying areas.  It is corrosive, but materials that safely contain and move hydrogen have been available for a substantial amount of time.  And while highly flammable, this is also mitigated by its lighter-than-air properties, as well as careful anti-explosion measures (e.g.: use of brass tools, stringent measures to prevent electrical arcing, etc).

To mitigate damage from environmental factors, the infrastructure can be placed underground.  Simply burying it will work and provide additional insulation, but I think it would be better to use tunnels that can act as carriers for other infrastructure (fiber optic, steam, water, sewage, storm drain) as well as improve ease of access to said infrastructure.

I have other ideas as well that would make such a project worthwhile, but that's best saved for another discussion.

As for numbers in the economic sense...  I wouldn't know where to look, but I'd imagine that industries where cryogenic gasses are commonly used (e.g.: food preservation) would be a good place to start.
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RE: How Does an RBMK Reactor Explode
#33
Next Post

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The explosion is logged as two sharp shocks in the reactor 4 logbook.

In the control room of Reactor 4, there is no 'Core Exploded' light. There is no information at all. Power has been lost. Indicators for the control rods show they've stopped less than a third of the way into the reactor. The indicators have frozen at the moment of explosion. There is no way for the men in control room four to know that the control rods have been torn free of the remnants of the reactor. Naturally, the reactor has to be intact. It's out of control. It has to be recovered to prevent a catastrophe.

This is what the men in room start doing.

The first order from Dyatlov is to start the emergency diesels - to get power to the control room and to the main circulating pumps. He runs to the auxiliary control room to try lower the rods by disconnecting the power to the drive motors to allow them to drop manually - this fails. He then runs to the Unit 03 control room to instruct them to shut down the reactor. Finally, he orders two trainee operators - Aleksandr Kudryavtsev and Viktor Proskuryakov - to the reactor hall to crank the control rods down manually.

The first communication from outside the room is a call from the Turbine Hall. The building's on fire. Naturally, the Fire Brigade are called. Nobody thinks they're being asked to put out an open reactor fire. More reports of damage come in from around the building.

Radiation levels in the control room are high - but manageable. The control room dosimeter reads in Microroentgen per second - one measurement comes it at 800 - another in a different part of the room maxes it out at a 1000. That's high - but in a situation this dangerous it can be worked in. 500 Roentgen over 5 hours will kill 50% of those exposed to it. The control room is nowhere close to that. The values in the control room were believed to be correct. Radiation levels elsewhere in the plant are measured at the same upper limit of 1000uR/s - where in reality they could be far, far higher. Someone, somewhere decides to record this as 3.6R/hr to hide how curiously specific the figure is. A higher ranged meter is locked away in a safe where the ordinary workers can't get at it.

Elsewhere in Unit 04, Aleksandr Yuvchenko is in his office at the time of the explosion. The entire room collapses around him, dust and steam turning the air a mily white. He meets Yuri Tregub from the control room, and sets about making his way to the pump room. On their way they meet Viktor Degtyarenko who has been scalded by steam. Viktor askes them to search for Valery Khodemchuk in the pump room.

Aleksandr enters the pump room to find nothing but rubble and stars. Above him, he can see the blue laser glow from the reactor. It is immediately obvious that something dreadful has happened - far more than a water hammer or hydraulic blast.

They both return to the building, where they meet Valery Perevoschenko, Aleksandr Kudryavtsev and Viktor Proskuryakov. Yuvchenko goes with the three to the reactor hall. A strong man - he agrees to hold the damaged door open while Perevoschenko, Kudryatsev and Proskuryakov enter the reactor hall.

They emerge high in the building - far above where the top of the reactor is supposed to be. There should be a crane beside them, but it has collapsed. Above them should be a roof - but there are only stars.

Below them is the maw of hell itself - graphite in the core burns a hot red beneath the tangled gorgon's hair of broken control rods and fuel channels torn free from the reactor. The spent fuel pools have been filled with graphite thrown from the reactor which is glowing like a demonic barbeque. The radiation levels are unimagineable. The very air around them is glowing blue, molecules of oxygen being torn apart by high energy gamma rays. The same thing is happening to the molecules that make up the DNA in their cells. The smoke they breath is aerosolised carbon and reactor fuel. In the few seconds it takes them to understand what they are looking at, all three receive a lethal dose of radiation.

Yuvchenko, who held the door, would receive radiation burns to his body from the dust on the door. He survives until 2008. Viktor Degtyarenko, Valery Perevoschenko, Aleksandr Kudryatsev and Viktor Proskuryakov will die within a month. Valery Khodemchuk is still entombed beneath the rubble of the pumproom, having never been found.

In the turbine hall, engineers work to keep the fires from causing an even bigger disaster. The turbine is lubricated by tons of flammable oil. The generator is cooled by hydrogen gas. The release of either of these could make a terrible situation far worse. A fire spreading inside the turbine hall could threaten the other three reactors. Reactor debris - broken fuel channels and pieces of hot nuclear fuel, have fallen onto the machinery. A single piece of reactor fuel has lodged on a transformer beside a turbine. It is radiating at at least Ten Thousand Roentgen an hour - a lethal dose in less than a minute.

The turbine workers slog through contaminated water and reactor debris to shut down the turbine. They are lethally irradiated. Viktor Lopatyuk, Vyacheslav Brazhnik, Anatoly Baranov, Aleksandr Lelechenko, Oleksandr Novyk and Kostyantyn H. Perchuk will die within a month.

Firefighters have arrived to tackle the blaze. Some have no idea what they're facing. Others don't expect to survive the night. The air around them tastes of metal, the taste of radiation itself.
They get about doing what they do best - putting the fire out. Firefighters clamber over chunks of reactor and graphite so radioactive they are glowing. They climb the rubblepile that is the pumproom, making their way to the roof of the building above the reactor.

Major Leonid Telyatnikov - head of Chernobyl's own firefighting unit - will survive until 2004 despite climbing to the roof of the building multiple times. He is listed as an official casualty of the disaster nevertheless. Most of those who went onto the roof will die within two weeks. These are Vasily Ignatenko, Viktor Kibenok, Vladimir Pravik, Vladimir Tishura, Nikolai Titenok and Nikolai Vashchuk. The radiation field is so powerful it turns Lieutenant Vladimir Pravik's brown eyes blue

The majority of the firefighters live to tell their story. Including a truck driver who managed to pick up a chunk of irradiated graphite wondering what the fuck it was.

By 5am, the fires are under control.

Only the reactor itself is still burning.

The reactor operators continue to try to save it. Valery Perevoschenko, Aleksandr Kudryatsev and Viktor Proskuryakov return to the control room to report the reactor as being destroyed. Despite the radiation giving them an insidious nuclear tan, and despite them already being in the opening stages of radiation poisoning, they are not believed. Akimov insists the reactor can be saved - they have to be wrong.

Of course they have to be wrong. The alternative is that an open nuclear reactor is spewing hot fission products into the upper atmosphere. The alternative is the radiological sterilisation of the Soviet Union - of a future Europe where life is short and painful and large swathes of the world are left utterly uninhabitable. The consiquences are unimagineable - so unimagineable as to be impossible.

He orders an engineer to manually open the emergency cooling system valves which had been closed prior to the test - this will take hours. He then leads Leonid Toptunov to the ruined feedwaters rooms near to the reactor core. They wade through water contaminated with dust from fuel and shattered graphite, spending hours beneath the core manually opening valves to try and flood water into the reactor they still believe to be intact. This is, in fact, futile. Any water which makes it to the reactor is instantly vapourised.

Ivan Orlov, Leonid Toptunov and Aleksandr Akimov will die within three weeks. Akimov is so irradiated, the skin on his legs detaches like a loose sock while he is in hospital. To his final day, he insists he has made no mistakes.

Dyatlov tours the station perimeter with Tregub, surveying the ruins. It's clear that something catastrophic has happened - far more catastrophic that a burst steam line or an explosion in the de-aerators. Tregub compares what they are witnessing to Hiroshima. Dyatlov admits that not even is his nightmares could he have imagined. The facade that the reactor is intact begins to crack, but it is not yet broken.

Station Director Bryukhanov is in the station civil defense bunker with Chief-Engineer Fomin. They still do not understand that the reactor has been destroyed - despite Perevoschenko, Kudryavtsv and Prokuryakov looking directly into it. Dyatlov and Tregub repoer to the bunker, detailing their findings. Bryukhanov and Fomin need confirmation - the sickened engineers and firefighters apparently not being enought for them.

Dyatlov is overcome by radiation before he can provide it. He will survive until 1995. He lives long enough to write a book explaining his side of events.

Anatoly Sitnikov, Deputy Chief Operational Engineer from the now arriving dasyshift, is ordered to take the measurements

The station's high-range meter frys itself the moment it's turned on. The fire-brigade has a lower-range meter that can still read up to 200R/hr. (In three hours, a lethal dose). Sitnikov and his team use these to measure radiation around the plant. Many of their measurement are somewhere beyond the top of the scale. By 10am, there is only one place left for Sitnikov to measure - the roof of Reactor 4.

He climbs through the building and steps out beneath the ventilation shaft. Around him are fragments of fuel and graphite still steaming. The needle on his meter pegs all the way to the right as he steps towards the ledge. Something awful has happened, but this is his job. Below him should be the roof of Reactor 4.

Instead, he peers down into the still burning core itself. In daylight, the full horror is visible.

The lid is off. The entire graphite stack is burning. The world is facing a catastrophe unlike any other in history. He reports this to his superiors.

Anatoly Sitnikov receives 1500 rads - certain death two times over. He will die on the 30th of May. For the entire time that he can speak, he refuses to blame anyone for what happened.

Sometime after mid-day Bryukhanov reports to Moscow 1000uR/sec as the maximum radiation dose in the vicinity of the plant.

I love the smell of rotaries in the morning. You know one time, I got to work early, before the rush hour. I walked through the empty carpark, I didn't see one bloody Prius or Golf. And that smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole carpark, smelled like.... ....speed.

One day they're going to ban them.
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RE: How Does an RBMK Reactor Explode
#34
Found something a bit relevant to the subject matter here: a complete breakdown of everything that happened at Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant, leading up to and after the events of the reactors melting down.  Complete with very informative graphical cutaways of the reactors.

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RE: How Does an RBMK Reactor Explode
#35
Another explanation, from Japanese Youtube - IIRC

Daichi was one of three plants hit by the wave. Fukushima Daini - just a few kilometres down the coast was succesfully shut down with the help of some engineering to impress Scotty, while Onagawa, closer to the epicentre, survived without incident, functioned as a local shelter and is due to restart soon.

I love the smell of rotaries in the morning. You know one time, I got to work early, before the rush hour. I walked through the empty carpark, I didn't see one bloody Prius or Golf. And that smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole carpark, smelled like.... ....speed.

One day they're going to ban them.
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RE: How Does an RBMK Reactor Explode
#36
I bet someone at Daini got promoted for that stunt.

Let's round out the collection with an excellent dissection of the accident at Three Mile Island Unit #2.  This video is great because this man goes into great detail about the causes of the accident - including the role of human error and what it really means - while keeping it relatively brief.

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RE: How Does an RBMK Reactor Explode
#37
Actually.... touching on something I tried to do with that accident story in Fenspace. (Which is why I started this whole research thing)

Also, Care and Feeding of your RBMK reactor. From Ignalina. Slightly different from Chernobyl.

When someone asks me why the hell I want to add an RBMK or three to Fenspace, the true answer is because I did all this damned reading.

I love the smell of rotaries in the morning. You know one time, I got to work early, before the rush hour. I walked through the empty carpark, I didn't see one bloody Prius or Golf. And that smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole carpark, smelled like.... ....speed.

One day they're going to ban them.
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