[OOC] Villains and Destroyers

[Labster]

... damn, that means Mr Morden is in the background making deals

"Tell me, Kuubey: What do you want?"

From the "Montreal residence" thread, where Rob appears to be trying to divide the Metacontinuity by zero.

I think it's time to address what the primary villains in our story should look like.  We have strong creators in our story, like Washuu and the Choushin.  We have strong preservers in the story, like Belldandy and the Norns.  So we need a set of strong destroyers in the story, and we should be talking about who they should be.

We can have smaller scale villains, that's fine.  The biggest canon villain in the first three stories I chose is Kimura-sensei, who spends a little too much time ogling high school girls, but also keeps the city clean fueled only by Love Wife Lunches.  Eriol is an antagonist, but his challenges are to help the protagonist grow up with all of her friends.

Our main antagonists should be destroyers, people who aren't just out for themselves, but people who actually want to destroy the world or universe.  People who could be plausible enemies to the gods.  Salem is actually a good starting choice, now that we know her aim is to prove her gods wrong and to replace them.  The Sailor Moon enemies make good choices too, like Metalia and Pharaoh 90 and especially Chaos.  It's not just evil people, since we're working with Hild and Ciel, but those who are trying to destroy the cosmic order entirely.  And from there, we can move on to who they will use to achieve their goals.

And from that perspective, Kyubey and Mr. Morden just aren't evil enough to be major antagonists.

[Black Aeronaut]

It'd be interesting to include the cosmology of Diane Duane's Young Wizards series. Not sure how to do it, but having The Lone Power skulking around would be interesting. He would be sympathetic to Salem's cause, but at the same time would pursue His own objectives behind their backs.

[Bob Schroeck]

The thing about the Lone Power is that it doesn't want to destroy for the sake of destruction -- it felt death and entropy were a necessary and positive addition to Creation. It has no more interest in Creation's end than any of the other Powers, it's just ... iconoclastic and dedicated to its own vision? If big, cosmos-destroying villains try to recruit it, it just might oppose them even if it was sympathetic to their reasons. Spite the other artists? Sure. Burn the canvas? Hell, no.

Edit: Hell, the fact that the Lone Power sees entropy as good thing means it would be massively opposed to Kyuubey's people and their plans. The Lone Power is complicated -- it's going to look like a good guy and a bad guy and both and neither to everyone at one time or another.

[Black Aeronaut]

The thing about the Lone Power is that it doesn't want to destroy for the sake of destruction -- it felt death and entropy were a necessary and positive addition to Creation.  It has no more interest in Creation's end than any of the other Powers, it's just ... iconoclastic and dedicated to its own vision?  If big, cosmos-destroying villains try to recruit it, it just might oppose them even if it was sympathetic to their reasons.  Spite the other artists?  Sure.  Burn the canvas?  Hell, no.

Edit:  Hell, the fact that the Lone Power sees entropy as good thing means it would be massively opposed to Kyuubey's people and their plans.  The Lone Power is complicated -- it's going to look like a good guy and a bad guy and both and neither to everyone at one time or another.

Pffft!  Patron God of Anti-Heroes much? 

EDIT: Come to think of it, I think some anti-heroes in fiction would not mind hanging their hats in The Lone Power's personal demesne. Living in a place like that keeps a person SHARP.

[robkelk]

...  The Sailor Moon enemies make good choices too, like Metalia and Pharaoh 90 and especially Chaos.  It's not just evil people, since we're working with Hild and Ciel, but those who are trying to destroy the cosmic order entirely.  And from there, we can move on to who they will use to achieve their goals.

Usagi will complain that she's already destroyed all of her opponents, only to be reminded by somebody (Rob? Ben? Tomo?) that she never actually destroyed Chaos, just sent it packing for a while. And somebody else will point out the Book and Wash and Pyrrha are back, so...

And from that perspective, Kyubey and Mr. Morden just aren't evil enough to be major antagonists.

True, but they're easily-understandable antagonists, unlike those who they work for. Think of them as the Face in front of the Abomination, much like Beryl was to Metalia.

[Dartz]

Killgrave - as an antagonist for the Girls.

What happens when he meets someone he can't control?

[Norgarth]

*snerk* Now picturing Jessica Jones trying to deal with someone like Usagi, who Jessica being a jerk won't push away, because she can sense the heartache/pain that is the cause of her attitude and wants to help Jessica heal.

Edit to add:
An idea for a Destoyer agent, Owlman from the JLA: Crisis on two Earths movie wanted to annihilate the multiverse.  He'd be a willing (and damn smart/capable) agent for Salem and co.

[Black Aeronaut]

Hmmmm....  I beg to differ with Kyubey.  That little fucker knows what it's doing, even when you account for Blue and Orange Morality.

Recall in my stream of consciousnesses notes, that Kyubey uses the excuse that someday humanity will ascend to the stars, and wouldn't it be nice if the universe was preserved in its current state for them to enjoy it?  But here's the thing: Even if Kyubey doesn't understand why what it does to these girls is so horrifying, it does know that it is, nonetheless, horrifying to them.

And there's your litmus test: EITHER Kyubey refuses to change the way the collectors do things because it feels that eventually Humanity is gonna come around on the matter, OR it's lying through its teeth on the matter.

The thing is that Kyubey saying that means one of two things: 1) They are completely disregarding human history and the fact that our history has a tendency to repeat itself; OR, 2) It knows that this will go over about as well as a lead balloon and there's likely to be a fuck-off huge interstellar war once Humanity gets off world and goes interstellar.

Scenario 1) is very unlikely because even with Blue and Orange Morality taken into account, the Collectors aren't so stupid as to not recognize a pattern.  Which means that - Hello there, Occam's Razor! - they're expecting Scenario 2) and have every intention of either crippling or destroying humanity in order to satiate their needs before they even have a chance to do anything about it.

This is also supported when we see, in the flashbacks depicting the end of one of Homura's many time loops, where Madoka has become a Witch so powerful that she's going to destroy the Earth.  Kyubey could honestly care less about the matter - it's quota for energy collection on Earth has been fulfilled, and therefore humanity's plight is of no concern at all.

So, I don't believe that Kyubey and The Collectors is going to be anything other than a major threat.  So long as it's Civilization is unmolested, it will do as it see fit in order to secure sources of energy for them to exploit.  And when you have that kind of amoral ruthlessness running around?  I think even Salem is going to take pause and carefully consider The Collector's place in her plots, because that's a piece that cannot be emotionally manipulated - if it's in their best interests to turn against her, then they'll do it, no questions asked.

[Black Aeronaut]

Killgrave - as an antagonist for the Girls.

What happens when he meets someone he can't control?

*snerk* Now picturing Jessica Jones trying to deal with someone like Usagi, who Jessica being a jerk won't push away, because she can sense the heartache/pain that is the cause of her attitude and wants to help Jessica heal.

Sorry, you guys came in while I was working on my.... aheh - long winded argument. Whoops!

Anyhow, yeah, let's go ahead and bring in characters like that. It'll be interesting to see how Killgrave deals with that sort of outside context problem. And Jessica Jones.... I haven't really seen any of that series, but I know about the general story beats. Let's go ahead and throw her in and see what happens.

[Norgarth]

Edit to add:
An idea for a Destoyer agent, Owlman from the JLA: Crisis on two Earths movie wanted to annihilate the multiverse.  He'd be a willing (and damn smart/capable) agent for Salem and co.

Hey BA, here's an idea I was adding to my post as you were making yours, dunno if you saw it.

[Labster]

Kyubey makes an argument for his own moral rectitude that can't be simply dismissed out of hand. From a human point of view he looks like a freaking monster, but assume he really is all that much more advanced than us. He certainly believes so. Taking the life of another species through tricking it something that humans have done since before civilization. Traps, buffalo runs, and domestication are pretty common examples. You can communicate with a dog, right? Well, some people think it's okay to eat dogs, same argument with horses. One of the inescapable facts of animal life is that we must take other life in order to continue to live ourselves.

And if it is immoral to cause humans to despair and die, is God immoral for causing/"creating a universe with" natural disasters? The last days at Pompeii must have been terrifying, with no escape after a certain point. Is the morality different if you're "above" a creature? Kyubey does seem immune to the problem though -- as are many people. On the other hand, kosher meat has existed for millennia, so at least we're aware there is a problem here.

I guess for villains, I like to be able to see it from their perspective. That more than anything is why I write so much slice of life. Getting into villain headspace is so... dirty. On the other hand, the argument about the gods causing suffering is not too far from a position Salem would hold. She takes further steps, blaming the powers, believing she could do a better job herself, and making a long plan to replace them. Dangerous, that woman.

[robkelk]

(blows dust off thread)

So. Time Away. Boomers upgraded with flight packs. Whodunnit? (It doesn't mater to that story, but they're still out there to appear in other stories.)

My thinking at the time was Leonard Testarossa and AMALGAM, but I already said Musujime is working for him so his having flying Boomers as well as his canon human-sized Arm Slaves and a teleporter is just getting greedy. But, off the top of my head, I can't think of anybody else who has the know-how to upgrade a 55C Boomer that way.

Anybody have any alternate ideas here?

[Labster]

Andy Weir, maybe?

[Black Aeronaut]

How about the distinct possibility that they aren't working together per say, but rather they've exchanged some technologies?

Cause let's face it - even Amalgam's AIs are primitive compared to a Buma.  A Buma is so freakishly advanced in that field that it's essentially a true synthetic mind.  Literally a synthetic brain.  And one that is enslaved, at that.  How can you imagine Leonard not passing up something like that?  His man-scale armslave-bots are bad news, but they're not very bright.  Just imagine if they had human-like capabilities of sideways thinking and problem solving like some of the smarter Bumas do.

Meanwhile, our GENOM villains would probably be drooling all over the floor to get their hands on Lambda Driver technology - which could arguably provide a much more efficient means flight, with the added possibility of shielding and structural integrity systems.  This could just be a test to see how combat effective a flight system powered by a Lambda Driver would be - to see if a Buma could handle the strain of a Lambda Driver.

This has the advantage of fitting into the narrative at this time frame - the bad guys aren't working together or even collaborating just yet... but the more savvy ones (such as Leonard Testarosa and whoever is behind the Bumas here) are aware of each other and they are sharing technology and other things.

Thoughts?

[Norgarth]

Makes sense to me, even if both villains in question plan to (eventually) stab the other in the back 'once they no longer need them' 8)

[robkelk]

Yeah, that could work. It isn't as if the good guys are the only ones who recognize the advantages of cooperation.

As for who's behind the Boomers... that can wait until somebody else needs them.

[Labster]

TIL that Belldandy and Salem have the same seiyuu. o_O

[Black Aeronaut]

So.

I had a crazy thought.

What if we added Bungie's Destiny to the mix?

Not right now right now.  But likely sometime like second or third season.

This will bring a lot of great stuff to the table, such as:

Another "Base of Operations" in the form of The Last City - probably located on the post-apocolypse Earth
Totally cheese-off Usagi once Crota and The Hellmouth show up on the Moon (Even if it's not *her* moon...)
Give us a lot of fun places to play in all over the Sol system
Lots of awesome allies
A fair number of anti-hero types
Uber-powerful Villains
Extragalactic threats
The Traveler
The Guardian (nee Dr. Shin) and his fireteam
And So.  Much.  Plot Potential.

I'm putting this in the "Villains and Destroyers" thread because there are just so many Big Bads (many of them in the "True Evil" category) in Destiny that it makes others seem kinda tame by comparison.

Thoughts?

[Labster]

I have zero knowledge of what you're talking about. I'm vaguely aware that Bungie is a software company.

In general game crossovers are a bit more difficult in a shared universe than all of the others because of
1. You have to play to experience it. This takes time, and often skill. I'm pretty terrible at FPS, might not be able to get most of the content. I got sick of waiting for summons and never bothered to play to the end of Final Fantasy VII. Books/movies/podcasts can be experienced passively.
2. Games enforce the logic of their genre pretty hard, with a few exceptions. Otherwise, you couldn't play it. Most of the time, those exceptions are minigames. Drizzt clones are the start of the thing.
3. Game characterization is weaker, most of the time. The setting elements are fine. But there's a reason why there are so many different interpretations of the Touhous.
4. Games tend to be bad at random access for fanfic reference material. Some are better than others, but the best bet involves multiple saves and/or hoping someone put the cutscene on the net.

[Bob Schroeck]

On the topic of imports, I just had an... interesting? amusing? idea while making breakfast. What if one of the imports was a different president of the US? Like Bartlett from West Wing, Harrison Ford's from Air Force One or Morgan Freeman's from whichever film you want to pick from? He (or she) gets slotted into the Metacontinuity along with all key staff -- and they're aware of what's happened, but as far as the rest of the world is concerned they've always been there. And maybe one of the staff is a contact for the Goddesses...

[robkelk]

On the topic of imports, I just had an... interesting? amusing? idea while making breakfast.  What if one of the imports was a different president of the US?  Like Bartlett from West Wing, Harrison Ford's from Air Force One or Morgan Freeman's from whichever film you want to pick from?  He (or she) gets slotted into the Metacontinuity along with all key staff -- and they're aware of what's happened, but as far as the rest of the world is concerned they've always been there.  And maybe one of the staff is a contact for the Goddesses...

This is fake news! Fake news, I tell you!

Although, if trying to tell stories about and around the RL POTUS starts getting in the way of telling stories, this could be a patch...

[Black Aeronaut]

I have zero knowledge of what you're talking about.  I'm vaguely aware that Bungie is a software company.

In general game crossovers are a bit more difficult in a shared universe than all of the others because of
1. You have to play to experience it.  This takes time, and often skill.  I'm pretty terrible at FPS, might not be able to get most of the content.  I got sick of waiting for summons and never bothered to play to the end of Final Fantasy VII.  Books/movies/podcasts can be experienced passively.
2. Games enforce the logic of their genre pretty hard, with a few exceptions.  Otherwise, you couldn't play it.  Most of the time, those exceptions are minigames.  Drizzt clones are the start of the thing.
3. Game characterization is weaker, most of the time.  The setting elements are fine.  But there's a reason why there are so many different interpretations of the Touhous.
4. Games tend to be bad at random access for fanfic reference material. Some are better than others, but the best bet involves multiple saves and/or hoping someone put the cutscene on the net.

Well, Destiny is pretty much *The* FPS-MMO if your tastes run to high science fiction/fantasy.  Others have tried to make the "Destiny Killer" that would triumph over Bungie's title, but they usually fail horribly in one way or another.  (Bioware's Anthem came real close, but they screwed the pooch with - what else? - the story line.)

I wouldn't let the FPS part kill the joy - it's actually a very easy FPS, if for no other reason than it allows an absurd variety of weapons for every type of play style from in-your-face spray-&-pray, to "You, that dude about a kilometer down the road?  You're dead."  Oh, and the aim assist on this thing is outrageous to the point where it's almost a hindrance.  (I've been sniping in a target rich field many a-time and almost had a peach of a headshot, just for some other rando mob character jump out of cover and have the aim assist drag my targeting reticle off my intended target.)

Just stay out of the PvP stuff (Crucible, Iron Banner, and Gambit) and you can have yourself a grand old time.

By the numbers here...
1. Destiny's lore is actually VERY accessible.  In fact, I'm pretty sure someone's done a good fan-novelization that covers all the important stuff plus some of the more fun apocrypha (such as the lore behind certain "Exotic" level armors and weapons - Tommy's Match Book is a fun one.)  There aren't very many cut scenes, and they're all the same no matter what class or race of character you're running.
2. True, but I don't think I've seen anything yet in Destiny that would clash any worse than say, Sailor Moon and Star Trek.  The only big thing is that some of the Big Bads in Destiny would give The Culture a pretty damn good run for their money.
3. About the only characterization that is weak at all is the player character.  Your character has no memories of their past life (you've been dead for some several hundred years when your "Ghost" finds you and resurrects you) - the only clue we get is during one mission on Venus where the security system in an old lab recognizes you and greets you by name - Dr. Shim.  Otherwise, all the characters have pretty strong characterization.  Even the ones you wind up not seeing often.  (Put it this way - one of the major characters was voiced by Nathan Fillion - and he fit the role like a glove.)
4. Again, the lore is very accessible.  And also the story is pretty linear.  There's not much branching going on here because it's an MMO where everyone is playing the same role of The Big Damn Hero, but from your perspective they're just other Guardians.  And what cut scenes there are, they've been available on Youtube for quite some time.  Here's all the cut scenes from the first Destiny game, plus all the DLCs.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6N7h1F92Qs