2020 US election - The fat lady is warming up in the wings

[robkelk]

Old thread is still vitriolic

---

In Georgia, Trump supporters eye Biden term with anxiety, fear

[hazard]

Different thing, unless I've gotten my Incidents mixed up. There's been quite a few to keep track of, this year.

I suppose I was excessively oblique.

I mean that there were, in fact, those snatch gangs working their ways through the cities of the USA. In so far as they could be identified, being anonymous snatch gangs, all known cases point at them being law enforcement personnel acting in a manner that is at best less than legal and in any sensible society very illegal.

[classicdrogn]

Ah, yes, that was part of my point as wellas the directly stated, wasn't happenin' in the CHOP.

[robkelk]

A quote in response to last Thursday's statements by the incumbent regarding the supposed "stealing" of the election:

"No Republican should be okay with the President's statements just now."
-- Jeff Flake (R-AZ, retired)

More from past-Senator Flake here

[Labster]

Yeah, that's cool and all, but Joe Biden has received more messages of congratulations from foreign heads of state than the number of elected Republicans (at any level) who acknowledge his victory.  I mean, there's just 196 heads of state, it can't be that hard to beat.

Notably, Biden has been congratulated by Kumamoto Mayor Yutaka Umeda (梅田 穣) whose name kanji can also be read as Jo Baiden.

Heck, Queen Elizabeth even endorsed Biden! 

[Norgarth]

[Jinx999]

Someone ought to send the Trump team a dictionary. Expand their vocabulary.

Frankly the way that Trump is doubling down on his claims (which as far as anyone can tell are based entirely on his hurt feelings) again and again and his willingness to throw America under a bus to prop up his ego is distinctly worrying.

[robkelk]

Someone ought to send the Trump team a dictionary. Expand their vocabulary.

Frankly the way that Trump is doubling down on his claims (which as far as anyone can tell are based entirely on his hurt feelings) again and again and his willingness to throw America under a bus to prop up his ego is distinctly worrying.

We had advance warning of this behaviour - he was the only GOP candidate who refused to say he'd support another candidate in the 2016 primaries.

(And this behaviour is exactly why I would have preferred Pence to Trump in 2016.)

[Dartz]

Nothing will be worse for democracy than an election decided by a court

Especially one against the run of voting. And where the court has a noted political bias towards one of the candidates.

That's who civil disobedience commences.

And that's not including the world response.

[hazard]

There are 3 viable responses in case Trump ends up with a second term.

1) Fleeing the country
2) Trusting the system works and that the system will keep working
3) Revolt

And given Trump, number 2 isn't that viable.

[Dartz]

Anyway, apparently a lawyer has weighed in on all of this. Assuming the system works and the courts follow the actual rules and shit. I think he's a real lawyer - there's such a shine off his tie I can almost see my face.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha7iWECm_8E

[classicdrogn]

I like the suggestion to replace all mentions of "Trump" in headlines with "Florida Man" from now on, from the comments on that.

[Black Aeronaut]

.....

Ya know, that'd really explain a lot about Trump. He's just a highly evolved version of Florida Man.

[classicdrogn]

Well it is The Orange State, after all.

[Labster]

Someone ought to send the Trump team a dictionary. Expand their vocabulary.

Frankly the way that Trump is doubling down on his claims (which as far as anyone can tell are based entirely on his hurt feelings) again and again and his willingness to throw America under a bus to prop up his ego is distinctly worrying.

We had advance warning of this behaviour - he was the only GOP candidate who refused to say he'd support another candidate in the 2016 primaries.

(And this behaviour is exactly why I would have preferred Pence to Trump in 2016.)

At least Trump isn't being egotistical.  In fact, he's the least conceded President in American history!

[Norgarth]

What's the Line from Amish Paradice?

"You think you're pretty rightious, you think you're pure of heart?
Well I KNOW I'm a million times as humble as thou art!"

[GethN7]

Guys, here's a thought: Let Trump have his recounts, let the courts weigh the arguments.

Now, let's say after the recounts are done and the courts make their decision, the revised numbers still go to Biden.

In that case, you get the best of both worlds. Trump looks like a petulant manchild and loses the Oval Office, and Biden wins clean once any possible fraud (on either side) has been winnowed out. If that happens, Trump was well and truly trumped (pun intended) and Biden avoids being regarded like Rutherford Hayes was and might actually get something accomplished because he's seen as truly legitimate.


Now, let's examine another possibility. Trump wins, but Biden is still discovered to be personally honest, and any actual fraud, if any, is in no way tied to him and his people (at best, a few morons who decided they were going to go rogue on one or both sides), and you still get a decent consolation prize.

That prize being that Biden and the Democrats are revealed to not be what the Republicans insist (dirty as pigs) and even if Trump wins, he looks like a petty jackass who had to shake his fist and cry foul out of fear he wouldn't get reelected, which would long-term give the Democrats a second wind and allow them to regroup handily at the mid-terms so long as they play the nice guy to the Republican douchebags.


In the interests of honesty, let's consider the worst situation: Trump wins, Biden loses, and there is massive fraud that was used to push Biden over the finish line by a sickening degree. In this case, the best thing to do is to accept it and simply encourage the Democrats to clean house and make sure things are scrupulously honest next time, so there is no reason the Republicans could cry foul save crying wolf. The benefit of doing this is that the Democrats can still regroup if they play their cards right and the American political system can purge any hint of scandal before it leaves a cloying cloud over the losing party for very long.


Just some ideas I wanted to toss out there. I'm willing to accept whoever is decided as the legit winner, but I see several ways this could still redound to the Democrats long-term favor even if the worst occurs, but it requires showing maturity even in the face of what could be the worst outcome.

[hazard]

Guys, here's a thought: Let Trump have his recounts, let the courts weigh the arguments.

Now, let's say after the recounts are done and the courts make their decision, the revised numbers still go to Biden.

In that case, you get the best of both worlds. Trump looks like a petulant manchild and loses the Oval Office, and Biden wins clean once any possible fraud (on either side) has been winnowed out. If that happens, Trump was well and truly trumped (pun intended) and Biden avoids being regarded like Rutherford Hayes was and might actually get something accomplished because he's seen as truly legitimate.

Trump will loudly trumpet the courts are corrupt in that case, even though he's assigned more judges than any other president in recent history.

Now, let's examine another possibility. Trump wins, but Biden is still discovered to be personally honest, and any actual fraud, if any, is in no way tied to him and his people (at best, a few morons who decided they were going to go rogue on one or both sides), and you still get a decent consolation prize.

That prize being that Biden and the Democrats are revealed to not be what the Republicans insist (dirty as pigs) and even if Trump wins, he looks aa like a petty jackass who had to shake his fist and cry foul out of fear he wouldn't get reelected, which would long-term give the Democrats a second wind and allow them to regroup handily at the mid-terms so long as they play the nice guy to the Republican douchebags.

Trump and the Republicans' behaviour has been such that it's difficult to trust they won't exploit it to dismantle more of the US and its government functions. Indeed, it's far easier to trust it will only get worse.

In the interests of honesty, let's consider the worst situation: Trump wins, Biden loses, and there is massive fraud that was used to push Biden over the finish line by a sickening degree. In this case, the best thing to do is to accept it and simply encourage the Democrats to clean house and make sure things are scrupulously honest next time, so there is no reason the Republicans could cry foul save crying wolf. The benefit of doing this is that the Democrats can still regroup if they play their cards right and the American political system can purge any hint of scandal before it leaves a cloying cloud over the losing party for very long.

Most likely result is that the Democrats start to splinter, with the democratic socialists and similar separating from the establishment on the basis of the establishment being too far gone to be rescued. Establishment democrats probably maintain position for a few house election cycles only to over time fold into the Republican party, there's going to be a monopole political system for at least several cycles while that all happens.

US elections may continue, but (permanent) abolishment of the election system is likely. The USA devolves into an authocratic state like many other democratic states in crisis and doesn't crawl out for decades, or at least until the fellow up front keels over and triggers a succession crisis. Given the current candidate for being the front man is old, it may not take long, but I can believe they've got a replacement for him in mind already. While that's going on the US economy and living standards collapse further along with its world wide influence.

Just some ideas I wanted to toss out there. I'm willing to accept whoever is decided as the legit winner, but I see several ways this could still redound to the Democrats long-term favor even if the worst occurs, but it requires showing maturity even in the face of what could be the worst outcome.

I'm unfortunately not as optimistic as you.

[Isodecan]

The fundamental problem is I believe that the Republican Leadership believes that they can't actually win based on their actual policies, and since they want (need) to stay in power in order to bring those policies to fruition, they are willing to do anything to do so.  More, they don't believe that if they lose that after the Democrats have actually been able to use the power that their victory would grant them, that they will be able to return from that to have political influence.

I don't personally believe they are correct (particularly on that last part), but that is the way they are behaving.

[robkelk]

Guys, here's a thought: Let Trump have his recounts, let the courts weigh the arguments.

Now, let's say after the recounts are done and the courts make their decision, the revised numbers still go to Biden.

In that case, you get the best of both worlds. Trump looks like a petulant manchild and loses the Oval Office, and Biden wins clean once any possible fraud (on either side) has been winnowed out. If that happens, Trump was well and truly trumped (pun intended) and Biden avoids being regarded like Rutherford Hayes was and might actually get something accomplished because he's seen as truly legitimate.

And in the meantime, the President-elect is not getting daily presidential briefings and his staff are not being allowed to take part in the transition activities that must take place before the country can be governed effectively, leaving the USA as a whole in a weakened position globally.

Now, let's examine another possibility. Trump wins, but Biden is still discovered to be personally honest, and any actual fraud, if any, is in no way tied to him and his people (at best, a few morons who decided they were going to go rogue on one or both sides), and you still get a decent consolation prize.

That prize being that Biden and the Democrats are revealed to not be what the Republicans insist (dirty as pigs) and even if Trump wins, he looks aa like a petty jackass who had to shake his fist and cry foul out of fear he wouldn't get reelected, which would long-term give the Democrats a second wind and allow them to regroup handily at the mid-terms so long as they play the nice guy to the Republican douchebags.

A precious small "prize", and only worth anything if politics is a war between enemies instead of a contest between rivals.

In the interests of honesty, let's consider the worst situation: Trump wins, Biden loses, and there is massive fraud that was used to push Biden over the finish line by a sickening degree. In this case, the best thing to do is to accept it and simply encourage the Democrats to clean house and make sure things are scrupulously honest next time, so there is no reason the Republicans could cry foul save crying wolf. The benefit of doing this is that the Democrats can still regroup if they play their cards right and the American political system can purge any hint of scandal before it leaves a cloying cloud over the losing party for very long.

That's a "why is the sky green?" question - it's possible to answer the question, but it's proceeding from a false premise.

If there was any evidence that this was the case, it would have been introduced in one or more of the currently-proceeding court cases by now, in order to strengthen the plaintiff's case.

This one's about as likely as the possibility that I might be the legitimate winner of the election. Consider it for completeness if you wish, but honesty has already been fulfilled.

Just some ideas I wanted to toss out there. I'm willing to accept whoever is decided as the legit winner, but I see several ways this could still redound to the Democrats long-term favor even if the worst occurs, but it requires showing maturity even in the face of what could be the worst outcome.

Agreed that showing maturity is important. Claiming the election was rigged without presenting any evidence is acting like a petulant child, not showing maturity.

[SilverFang01]

Since I have not seen it mentioned on the thread:
Postal worker recanted allegations of ballot tampering, officials say

and
With No Evidence of Fraud, Trump Fails to Make Headway on Legal Cases

[Jinx999]

The Governor of Texas (R, in case it wasn't obvious) has publicly admited that there is no evidence of voter fraud.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/11...described/

You don't offer large sums of money for something you already have.

[Bob Schroeck]

A co-worker shared a sort-of joke with me this morning that I'm half-worried might end up a "ha ha only serious" kind of thing, speculating that if/when the courts do not give him the election for being a good boy, Trump's next step will be to go to the state governments to get the names of all voters registered Democrat so that he can have them sued/arrested for engaging in a conspiracy to deny him his rightful second term. In any other year I'd call that obvious exaggeration, but Trump's just enough of an eogmaniacal lunatic that I can imagine him doing just such a thing.

[Jinx999]

If you Google trump (to look for news stories), one of the things that comes up is his most recent tweets.

I'm no psychologist and I wouldn't generally recommend trying to understand someone from their twitter feed at the best of times, but he seems to be in genuine denial that he's lost the election and is not just puttint it on for money. He's obsessively watching things like Breitbart and The Federalist, which are going along with his "claims" and he's also been mentioned as doing thinks like making a budget and discussing appoints for next year.

[GethN7]

Now, I need to ask, simply because I really want to know what would happen.

Let's say Trump is absolutely right there was MASSIVE voting fraud to push Biden over the top. Let's say the proof is overwhelming, unimpeachable, and included people confessing to such in open court.

Let's say it is enough to let him win once he proves it.

Now, I know that seems somewhere between a myth and joke at this point, and I hope it is too, I'd really hope the US electoral system is not a third-world country level of shoddy.

I just want to know how that would be handled if it's absolutely true. For my part, I'd be horrified and demand it be rectified so whoever wins can do so without the stain of corruption to their name.