2020 US election - The fat lady is warming up in the wings

[Bob Schroeck]

The Texas suit was utterly ridiculous right from the start. Its central thesis was that because no evidence of any fraud was found, that was irrefutable proof that there was fraud and it was invisible because of a mass conspiracy to hide it. And that was the proof that there was fraud. It was a circular argument that relied on its own assumptions to prove its assumptions were true.

No judge who hoped to keep their seat would even risk looking like they took something like that seriously.

Edit: There was another argument rolled in that was just as ridiculous, a claim fraud had to be in play because no candidate has ever lost both Florida and Ohio and won the presidency. Besides the obvious fallacy in treating such a pattern in elections as some kind of unalterable natural law, it was also false. Kennedy was elected president in just such a case.

One thing it did succeed at is revealing that the Republicans had no proof of fraud at all, despite all their yammering to the contrary -- and they were in effect admitting that in open court. Because you don't argue that a massive conspiracy has successfully hidden all evidence of fraud if you have the evidence of fraud you've been claiming exists for weeks.

[GethN7]

The Texas suit was utterly ridiculous right from the start.  Its central thesis was that because no evidence of any fraud was found, that was irrefutable proof that there was fraud and it was invisible because of a mass conspiracy to hide it.  And that was the proof that there was fraud.  It was a circular argument that relied on its own assumptions to prove its assumptions were true.

No judge who hoped to keep their seat would even risk looking like they took something like that seriously.

Edit: There was another argument rolled in that was just as ridiculous, a claim fraud had to be in play because no candidate has ever lost both Florida and Ohio and won the presidency. Besides the obvious fallacy in treating such a pattern in elections as some kind of unalterable natural law, it was also false.  Kennedy was elected president in just such a case.

One thing it did succeed at is revealing that the Republicans had no proof of fraud at all, despite all their yammering to the contrary -- and they were in effect admitting that in open court.  Because you don't argue that a massive conspiracy has successfully hidden all evidence of fraud if you have the evidence of fraud you've been claiming exists for weeks.

I'm sure there was fraud of some sort, but I agree, those arguments are asinine ways to try and prove it.

Regardless, looks like we'll have President Biden. And, yes, I am okay with that. Not who I wanted, but I can either be an adult or I can whine about what I can't change, and I choose the former.

[Bob Schroeck]

I'm just curious, Geth, on what grounds you still believe there must have been fraud? Because if none has been found, even by the people most motivated to find it and who would profit most from discovering it, if there is nothing a court would even entertain hearing, what makes you so sure that there had to be fraud? I mean, at this point, that kind of certainty smacks a little of faith as defined by Mark Twain: "Believing what you know ain't so."

[GethN7]

I'm just curious, Geth, on what grounds you still believe there must have been fraud?  Because if none has been found, even by the people most motivated to find it and who would profit most from discovering it, if there is nothing a court would even entertain hearing, what makes you so sure that there had to be fraud?  I mean, at this point, that kind of certainty smacks a little of faith as defined by Mark Twain: "Believing what you know ain't so."

I believe there was certainly some fudged ballots here and there, that's not an uncommon occurrence in nigh every election, on either side or both sides. It would be unrealistic to assume with stakes this high someone wouldn't be tempted to try it.

That said, I do agree with the arguments smoking gun proof of organized fraud on a nationwide scale you could take into a court and win with appear sorely lacking at best.

[hazard]

IIRC there are 2 known cases of fraud in... I think Pensylvania? Of course, both known cases are a single voter, each who confess to have attempted to vote using the names of dead relatives for the Republicans...


That said, no doubt are there other cases of voter fraud. In the lead up to the election there have been reports of extensive voter suppression efforts and attempts to fraudulently change mail in ballots through things like vote harvesting. But it does not seem to have impacted the results of the election even though it has no doubt greatly affected the ratios and total votes cast.

[RMH999]

Humans are humans - there will ALWAYS be somebody who thinks they're "smart enough/lucky enough/connected enough/etc" to try and bend the rules/commit fraud. Saying that - based on a 20 year MIT study, average fraud in US elections is somewhere around 0.00006% nationally.

This means for the 2020 election, with 158+ million votes cast... likely there's about 9500 fraudulent votes total. Yep, there was almost assuredly fraud. However it was not in any way enough to affect anything.

[Bob Schroeck]

Ah, yes, Geth and I were both insufficiently specific. I presumed he meant he still felt there had been widespread/organized fraud on a non-trivial scale on the Democratic side, and commented accordingly. RMH999 is of course correct. Any election will have fraud on both sides, but on a trivial scale. So as Geth has pointed out he actually meant "someone did something fraudulent during the election", well yeah, that's a given, and I can't argue with him there.

Edit: Another thing I should point out in the interests of clarity, because I have not been clear: I have been given to say "Republicans" in many of my posts in this forum, when actually what I've really been meaning is "Republicans in Federal office, for the most part". If there's one thing the election and its aftermath has made clear, it's that there is an immense number of state and local-level Republicans who are good and dedicated people and who are just as disgusted with Trump's farce and his enablers in Congress and elsewhere as anyone else. When I express my own disgust with Trump and tools like Mitch McConnell, I should be careful not to tar them with the brush I'm wielding.

[hazard]

No, tar them. Paint them with the same brush, for they confess the same beliefs. Only difference they espouse is methodology, but words are words, and not actions which matter.

Do the same with the Democrats. When a member of the Democratic party does something that's at best questionable and more likely illegal, call their friends, their allies, their subordinates, their supporters and their colleagues in the party on that too. Just like one would with Republicans.


Make clear that such behaviour is completely, utterly and unforgivably impermissible. Always, no matter the rank, no matter the station, no matter the office, and that failing to condemn such actions and failing to act on such condemnations can and will be reason to look for a better candidate in the next election, or if the screw up is particularly egregious to demand a recall of the clearly at best insufficiently competent official.

Let your vote be bought, and the currency be good government. The market place for votes is sadly one where it's a buyer's market and lacks a guarantee of delivery of the promised recompense for your trust, but you can at least try to ensure that if you are taken in by the false promises once that there is no repeat. And remember that a protest vote is still a vote, even if it means a blank ballot, a nonsense write in, or a hopeless candidate you find more palatable.

[Black Aeronaut]

RE: The Texas Suit:

The thing to keep in mind about Ken Paxton and his ilks is that they like to put on this big show, proclaiming themselves to be the savior of the people in the fashion of The Duke Brothers, when really, they're all just a bunch of Boss Hogs.  (And they know it, too.)

The problem arises from the fact that despite the above being, as Corwin Ravenhair once said, as obvious as weasels on acid, enough of their constituents fall for the lie that the Democrats are gonna come and take their guns away, make red meat illegal, and throw open the borders to every wetback in Mexico and beyond.

Though I will certainly admit that many Democrats fucking shoot themselves in the feet (yes, plural) in trying to curry favor with the anti-gun activists.  Even though this is really a small, vocal minority.  (Many of us would agree to better regulation, just not the ridiculous blanket-bans some of these groups are clamoring for.)  And then dumb-asses like Beto O'Rourke - who looks like he's about to swipe the Senate seat from Ted Cruz, spouts off with that shit about banning semi-auto weapons.

And just like that he lost all credibility because - whodathunkit!? - there's gun-toting Democrats in Texas of all places!</s>

Thing is, Democrats NEED to be reaching across the aisle.  And not just in some half-assed fingers crossed behind their backs way.  They need to give actual assurances and guarantees that some Conservative ideals will be respected and treated as being sacrosanct.

Yes, there are things that need to change.  The Government needs to be secularized once again.  Minimum wage needs to be redefined.  The Electoral College needs reform.  These aren't partisian issues, though, no matter how much people like Moscow Mitch would have people believe.  They are very much bipartisian.  The issue is, unfortunately, that Republican Senators do such a good job at fear mongering that they get to have their way regardless of the needs and desires of their constituants.

[Dartz]

And that's how the whole shebang goes righter and righter every years. One side offers compromise. One side goes further.

This current situation is a result of compromise.

[SilverFang01]

Say, whatever happened to those tri-corner hat wearing, teabagging State's Rights assholes?

Are they marching on the White House with their guns and their bibles right now? Is that why they're suddenly so quiet?

[Bob Schroeck]

Probably because they're in shock that the mechanisms they wanted in place to disadvatnage their opposition can be used to disadvantage them.

(KnowYourMeme.com page)

[Black Aeronaut]

Yeah. The Tea Party pretty much went tits-up within months after Trump taking office. They got everything that they wanted, and then some. And then the I-Told-You-Sos started pouring in.

[robkelk]

Thing is, Democrats NEED to be reaching across the aisle.  And not just in some half-assed fingers crossed behind their backs way. 

It takes two to tango. The GOP needs to accept the Dems' efforts, and make similar efforts of their own in the other direction.

You've just coming off of four years of the GOP refusing to make that effort - and it shows.

[hazard]

Four years?

The Republicans haven't been reaching across the aisle except to get a better grip to drag the Democrats towards them for more than a decade now.

[Mamorien]

Meet me in the middle, says the unjust man.

You take a step toward him. He takes a step back.

Meet me in the middle, says the unjust man.

https://twitter.com/JuliusGoat/status/11...8783590400

[Bob Schroeck]

Four years?

The Republicans haven't been reaching across the aisle except to get a better grip to drag the Democrats towards them for more than a decade now.

More like three decades.  The current mess started in the 1990s with the Republican reaction to Clinton's election.

[Bob Schroeck]

Trump loses Wisconsin lawsuit challenging Biden's win.

It was dismissed "with prejudice", just for that extra added oomph.

This brings him to almost 60 losses. I've lost track, is there anything still in play, anywhere?

[GethN7]

In a way, this may be for the best for both sides. As I understand it, for different reasons, both Democrats and Republicans, both elected and regular citizens with allegiance to either are not happy.

Hopefully, with this much disappointment on both sides, it may just convince them to reflect on why this is so and try to rectify that within the next four years. Feel free to take that as super optimistically as you like, it certainly is, but hope springs eternal.

[Black Aeronaut]

The unfortunate thing is that toxicity abounds. Just today while I was working, was passed by someone in a pickup truck flying a flag that declared, "FUCK BIDEN FUCK HARRIS AND FUCK YOU TOO!"

And this alongside a Bennington Flag.

*Sighs*

[Labster]

The unfortunate thing is that toxicity abounds.  Just today while I was working, was passed by someone in a pickup truck flying a flag that declared, "FUCK BIDEN FUCK HARRIS AND FUCK YOU TOO!"

And this alongside a Bennington Flag.

*Sighs*

* Labster rolls 1 on his vexillology roll

Is that the flag that Annette Bennington used in The American President?

Also, quietly lurking in the wings, is the chance that Biden takes office in the middle of a government shutdown.  There's a bipartisan bill to get a budget/economic relief omnibus passed, but it looks like it might be killed in the Senate even with strong Republican support.  Unless Democrats agree to give all businesses an exemption to lawsuits from employees that worked in dangerous conditions because of the coronavirus, McConnell will stop it.

[Black Aeronaut]

It's one of the first American Flags - the usual thirteen stars and stripes, but with a 76 on it in reference to the year the Declaration of Independence was issued.

Really, it pains me to see so many Republicans be so dead-set against Biden.  The man is far more of a Red-Blooded American - nay, dare I even say 'MURICAN! - than many of the weasel-faced scum on Capitol Hill.

FFS, look at this man on Jay Leno's Garage.  He does a fucking burnout.  IN A 1967 CORVETTE.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP-hyDSlmUs

[SilverFang01]

The unfortunate thing is that toxicity abounds.  Just today while I was working, was passed by someone in a pickup truck flying a flag that declared, "FUCK BIDEN FUCK HARRIS AND FUCK YOU TOO!"

And this alongside a Bennington Flag.

*Sighs*

The “fuck your feelings” crowd is feeling a tad hypersensitive.

[SilverFang01]

Really saying the quiet part out loud here, aren't you, Newtster.
https://twitter.com/newtgingrich/status/...01441?s=21

[Bob Schroeck]

The current tally is now 1 and 59:

Georgia Supreme Court rejects Trump appeal