All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XXI

[robkelk]

Anyone know if we can use this for Get It Off Me?  Because it's a damn-near perfect example of this trope in action.  (Especially that LOOK Megatron gives Starscream here -- that picture perfect "Are you an idiot?" look.)

If it's only the portion sufficient to display the trope, under fair use, that would pass muster.

Well, looks like someone else will have to do it.  I don't have permission to upload any files, and I don't feel that I'm qualified for that level yet as I'm sure I'm still gonna make some embarrassing mistakes along the way.

I know that you know how to use files on a wiki, from your contributions to the There's Nothing Better wiki. You can upload images to All The Tropes now.

As for embarrassing mistakes, even the mods make those from time to time.

[Bob Schroeck]

We should make sure there's an entry on the page for the incident illustrated, too.

[robkelk]

I have done everything I can to remove the excess whitespace from the end of Template:Subpages - to no avail.

Somebody who knows Lua, please remove the extra blank lines at the end of that template.

[robkelk]

Regarding sidemenu, yes, many of the places it's used come out ugly.  And what makes it worse is that it doesn't stack -- two sidemenus in a row become two boxes side-by-side.  Anything's better than that.

Also, tabber can result in much less whitespace - compare before and after.

[Black Aeronaut]

We should make sure there's an entry on the page for the incident illustrated, too.

If anyone can help me with tracking that one down, that'd be appreciated.  I don't even know which comic book series this came out of, and I know there've been several.

[Bob Schroeck]

Try an image search on it with TinEye or Google. That might turn up a page where it's identified.

[robkelk]

Just a heads-up: the six-month block we gave NormAtredies expires in less than two weeks.

[Black Aeronaut]

Try an image search on it with TinEye or Google.  That might turn up a page where it's identified.

Okay.  I had to translate the page of a Peruvian blogger, but I found it.  Apparently IDW acquired the rights for Mars Attacks! and got the absolutely wondrous idea of making a comic books crossover between that and G1 Transformers.  Mini-Megatron is the result of him being double-crossed by the Martians... only problem is that it did nothing to cut down on his available firepower.

But yeah, that's in there now.

If anyone can think of any more examples, just point me at them and I'll get them in when I get a few minutes to do so.  You don't even need to provide any links or whatever.  Just X-Event in Y-Media will do.

[Bob Schroeck]

Cool. Glad that worked.

[robkelk]

Bob asked a question on the wiki, which has lead me to ask a question of my own:
Do we have the trope "somebody uses one style of music to tell a story usually not associated with that style of music" yet?

Examples include... well, I'll make the list in my sandbox so we can all add to it before it goes to either an existing trope or the Trope Workshop.

[Black Aeronaut]

Question: Shouldn't "What Could Go Wrong?" be some kind of umbrella trope? Or at least a trope unto itself?

[robkelk]

Question:  Shouldn't "What Could Go Wrong?" be some kind of umbrella trope?  Or at least a trope unto itself?

It already is, with one more word added.

---

We have hundreds of missing images... or, rather, we don't have them. Some but not all of these already have a note that the oldest version in the Wayback Machine is from after the TVT fork.

Would anybody care to spend some cycles finding replacements for these?

[Black Aeronaut]

Question:  Shouldn't "What Could Go Wrong?" be some kind of umbrella trope?  Or at least a trope unto itself?

It already is, with one more word added.

.....

Okay, something needs to be done about the search function.  Because "what could go wrong" as a search query should have turned up at least SOMETHING.  Instead, I got absolutely zero results.  (No, I didn't use the quote marks.  I know that in most search engines that forces it to search for that exact chain of characters.)

[GethN7]

Question:  Shouldn't "What Could Go Wrong?" be some kind of umbrella trope?  Or at least a trope unto itself?

It already is, with one more word added.

.....

Okay, something needs to be done about the search function.  Because "what could go wrong" as a search query should have turned up at least SOMETHING.  Instead, I got absolutely zero results.  (No, I didn't use the quote marks.  I know that in most search engines that forces it to search for that exact chain of characters.)

The Miraheze guys are looking into things. We enabled AdvancedSearch to improve our searches but it needs another extension called CirrusSearch to make it feature complete. We could revert back to the old search until they hash that out, as AdvancedSearch is kinda buggy until they fix that.

[Bob Schroeck]

Guys, please review Emberfist's contributions carefully before passing them through moderation. They're somewhat subpar on grammar, usage and adherence to our style guide.

[GethN7]

I'm passing this along because the same place that exiled me for wrongthink is now targeting wikis that cover 'stereotypes about countries"

https://community.fandom.com/wiki/Messag...0003225281

The Polandball Wiki is gonna die because they don't want to cover any topic that could be of the slightest offense to anyone in regards to national stereotypes. I left the Tropedia/True Tropes Wiki guys a link to this since they cover the same tropes we do concerning national stereotyping, as they might get hit by this too.

FANDOM is so obsessed with becoming politically correct (in ways even TV Tropes isn't gonna touch, to their credit) we might get some refugees if FANDOM really does go full bore swinging this overly broad axe.

[Black Aeronaut]

Just checking, but the point of Poland Ball is that it parodies all these stereotypes, yes?

Somehow, this feels like that "Oh, but we're just autistic like that" kind of bullshit that I so very much despise.

[GethN7]

Just checking, but the point of Poland Ball is that it parodies all these stereotypes, yes?

Somehow, this feels like that "Oh, but we're just autistic like that" kind of bullshit that I so very much despise.

Yeah, the whole Polandball thing is affectionate parody, like the Axis Powers Hetalia franchise.

[Umbire]

Just checking, but the point of Poland Ball is that it parodies all these stereotypes, yes?

Actually reading the post indicates they've verged from parody into outright racism at least once, though that's pending further investigation. There's also this:

"writing "fan fiction" about countries or ethnicities in general - will be closed."

This part did bother and worry me slightly at first, though not for reasons similar to those stated in the thread review - and on that note, the OP of the thread then states that

"Fan fiction wikis where lands are divided into imaginary kingdoms or other sort of "fake" mapping is permitted in so long as the purpose of the content is to describe a clearly alternate and/or future universe and description of the country or its inhabitants do not fall under stereotypical or abusive depictions."

Despite this much-clearer-compare-to-the-first-one line, you still have replies from people crying about alternate history wikis being shut down in spite of the fact those would not meet deletion criteria. Whether FANDOM sticks to that word or not remains to be seen, but this gives off the impression of scaremongering - a very unwise move if one believes FANDOM to be an untrustworthy entity, as it muddies the facts.

Also, as much as I dislike FANDOM, that "exiled for wrongthink" statement seems it's like outright revising what actually happened with regards to an active flouting of clearly stated policy.

[Umbire]

Somehow, this feels like that "Oh, but we're just autistic like that" kind of bullshit that I so very much despise.

Also no idea what this means. Clarify, if you please?

[GethN7]

Just checking, but the point of Poland Ball is that it parodies all these stereotypes, yes?

Actually reading the post indicates they've verged from parody into outright racism at least once, though that's pending further investigation. There's also this:

"writing "fan fiction" about countries or ethnicities in general - will be closed."

This part did bother and worry me slightly at first, though not for reasons similar to those stated in the thread review - and on that note, the OP of the thread then states that

"Fan fiction wikis where lands are divided into imaginary kingdoms or other sort of "fake" mapping is permitted in so long as the purpose of the content is to describe a clearly alternate and/or future universe and description of the country or its inhabitants do not fall under stereotypical or abusive depictions."

Despite this much-clearer-compare-to-the-first-one line, you still have replies from people crying about alternate history wikis being shut down in spite of the fact those would not meet deletion criteria. Whether FANDOM sticks to that word or not remains to be seen, but this gives off the impression of scaremongering - a very unwise move if one believes FANDOM to be an untrustworthy entity, as it muddies the facts.

Also, as much as I dislike FANDOM, that "exiled for wrongthink" statement seems it's like outright revising what actually happened with regards to an active flouting of clearly stated policy.

The issue here is a simple one: Stereotypes can be played for innocent humor, especially if the people from the countries in question are aware of the stereotypes and play them up because they can laugh at themselves. I'm American and find over-the-top parodies of Americanism (in the positive and even negative way) amusing because they are clear exaggerations. This can even be done as a form of legitimate political commentary and often are.

Case in point:



If you read up, Israel's actual immigration laws actually are like this Stonetoss comic:

https://lawoffice.org.il/en/israel-immigration-rules/

FYI, TV Tropes will not allow a page on Stonetoss because they think Stonetoss is a bigot, despite him using a stereotype (as shown above), to make a legitimate point about the irony of Israel's immigration laws. By FANDOM's new rule, you'd be unable to discuss this too. Both are banning discussion of things over an attempt to be politically correct and not offend people even if the offending content is legal speech that can be analyzed and troped.

What is really rubbing FANDOM users wrong here is that the more innocent stuff must die just to punish something that wasn't. Instead of calling out whoever stepped over the line from "poking fun in a good-natured way" into something worse and issue clear rules to make sure said communities never went that far again, they are saying even if it's a stereotype said country and its people are in on is clearly played for good-natured laughs, the people making the jokes in non-malicious harmless fun are just as bad as the actual bigots.

It's using a cannon to swat a fly. Besides, national stereotypes are legitimate tropes of all media, both for good or ill. If FANDOM says their mere mention is verboten (and trope wikis do have to cover their purpose and excerpt selected text from cultural stereotype fanfics to illustrate how they use their tropes, which would fall under their new mandate), then that means perfectly innocent people could be tossed out for not doing anything that was wrong until FANDOM up and flipped the table on them. It's a slippery slope, pure and simple.

And if you object to how I referred to my own situation, well, I'm not apologizing. Many of us who founded ATT showed similar respectful dissent but still planned to remain obedient to their wishes, but even respectful dissent got us banished from TV Tropes forever and things that they allowed until they offended certain political and social mores (or simple ad sponsor greed) getting the axe and punishing those who never crossed the line along with those that did in response is another thing TVT did. FANDOM is going down the same ugly road and it may drive many of their users into our arms soon, and I frankly have more sympathy for the good-faith users who get the axe despite years of loyal service and never putting a foot wrong until they offend the wrong person for nebulously explained reasons that are overbroad in scope, as happened to me and as is happening on FANDOM now.

[Black Aeronaut]

Somehow, this feels like that "Oh, but we're just autistic like that" kind of bullshit that I so very much despise.

Also no idea what this means. Clarify, if you please?

Simple.  Some people will claim to having autism to excuse the fact that they're just ass holes, like as if being on the autism spectrum means it's okay to be misogynistic, racist, a bully, or what have you.  And, as someone who is on the Spectrum himself, I absolutely despise these people because not only is it a pathetic excuse, but it makes people like me look bad.

In this case, it would not surprise me if their excuse is that they're on the Autism Spectrum in order to excuse themselves from going all TV Tropes on all these other Wikis, just because the material they cover did a no-no once or twice.

Doubly so because purging the entire wiki for Poland Ball just because of one instance of racism on Poland Ball's part (not the Wiki per say) would be a bit like Wikipedia purging their article on Bill Cosby because it turned out he was a rapist.

EDIT: An example of what I mean about people using Autism as an excuse, albeit an extreme one, was the man that drove a rental van into a crowd of pedestrians in Toronto some time ago, killing ten and injuring fifteen.  His defense tried to claim that he did it because he was on the Autism Spectrum, thus making it into a modern-age version of "The Devil made me do it", which just about made me lose my shit.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/v...-1.5933687

[Umbire]

Simple.  Some people will claim to having autism to excuse the fact that they're just ass holes, like as if being on the autism spectrum means it's okay to be misogynistic, racist, a bully, or what have you.  And, as someone who is on the Spectrum himself, I absolutely despise these people because not only is it a pathetic excuse, but it makes people like me look bad.

Yeah no, I understood that much, but I wasn't sure who it was being applied to in this context.

In this case, it would not surprise me if their excuse is that they're on the Autism Spectrum in order to excuse themselves from going all TV Tropes on all these other Wikis, just because the material they cover did a no-no once or twice.

...I didn't see anything regarding autism at all in the discussion, is the thing, so now I'm just further confused. It helps (or doesn't?) that this isn't exactly out of nowhere, based on this particular quote:

"We have had past content conversations with Polandball and Polcompball so it should not have been a surprise to either community that there were some concerns we had."

Assuming this is true for the sake of discussion - since I am a third-party observer and cannot verify in either direction - they likely had time to take action and perhaps disclaim the content in question (as ATT's recently done, I'd think) or do something similar and didn't.

Doubly so because purging the entire wiki for Poland Ball just because of one instance of racism on Poland Ball's part (not the Wiki per say) would be a bit like Wikipedia purging their article on Bill Cosby because it turned out he was a rapist.

This comparison doesn't entirely track, but I suppose I get it...? The thing is, with Wikipedia you know for a fact they're reporting this stuff on an informational basis and not because they condone anything Cosby's done or are trying to sow a pretext for hit pieces or whatever. With farms like Wikia/FANDOM, literally anyone can make one so you don't really have that same level of assurance that they're handling shit right. Same with Miraheze, though in ATT's case I trust LT, Rob, et. al. to make it clear they're doing due diligence, and they hold themselves to that same standard - which has produced verifiable results.

It's ultimately a question of quality control, and for my own reasons I doubt that FANDOM as an entity is fully equipped to grapple with this situation in a way that I would consider sensible. Maybe PolandBall Wiki didn't meet those standards until it was too late; maybe they actually did take steps, just not enough; maybe they did and were done dirty.

As before, I can't say in either direction. My apprehension towards FANDOM is largely based on what I have seen from them previously, and I don't want to make assumptions about what I haven't - and from what I can see, while it is completely possible that FANDOM is overcorrecting in regards to their response regarding national stereotype tropes to an extent that is reasonably troubling, this is seemingly being panic-inflated - unintentionally and/or otherwise - into something far more than it is to the point of obscuring said legitimate concerns.

On that note, one last reply...

And if you object to how I referred to my own situation, well, I'm not apologizing. Many of us who founded ATT showed similar respectful dissent but still planned to remain obedient to their wishes

The TVT scenario was about pleasing advertisers and an admin wanting to maintain control. Your situation with FANDOM was about not posting bigoted tangents. It does no good to conflate them like they're the exact same, and that's as far as I'm humoring this.

[GethN7]

The TVT scenario was about pleasing advertisers and an admin wanting to maintain control. Your situation with FANDOM was about not posting bigoted tangents. It does no good to conflate them like they're the exact same, and that's as far as I'm humoring this.

If you are truly unable to see the similarity, then frankly I don't know what else to say. I was a member of FANDOM (formerly Wikia) for nearly a decade, this is not the first time they threw out people and content to please advertisers or for offending whatever political winds were blowing at the time, but while I do not wish for it to happen to you, maybe the first time you are treated with absolute disregard despite years of absolute loyalty despite any objection you might have you will finally come to realize this is just like TV Tropes all over again, including declaring certain moral stances bigoted even if you make a point to table them for the good of the community and not let them affect your work, like I do on All The Tropes, where I think some of what happens there is not how I'd do it for reasons either technical or ethical, but because the community wishes it, I might object, but I'm bound to enforce it anyway. And unlike FANDOM, at least my loyal dissent is not punished by being ostracized as a bigot and canceled from being a member here, or at least I hope it never becomes that bad.

I keep in touch with a lot of other people formerly from FANDOM, many of whom were kicked out for even less than me with even less reason, and while what happened to me may be deserved in your eyes because I personally offended your feelings, I will never persecute you or anyone else at All The Tropes for whatever social, moral, or political position you may express insofar as it doesn't compromise the wiki content (and I will restrict any action to what is allowed within clearly defined rules and state exact reasons, which is more courtesy than FANDOM showed me), and as easy as it would be to use the ignore function here, you are a member of the ATT community and I believe it would be unfair for me to deny you your right to complain in loyal dissent because I answer to you and every other user whether I like it or not. In that, despite you making a point to antagonize me, I believe am showing you far more regard than the party who threw me off FANDOM for what all available information suggests was what would happen if someone like you was calling the shots there.

That said, I do not wish to discuss politics on this forum anymore if I can avoid it. I have an anxiety condition I recently needed to get an increase in dosage for, and I'd prefer to avoiding your upset and mine as well by avoiding the subject where possible. It's clear my personal political and social views are not welcome here, and I'd like to refrain from sharing them anymore to avoid upsetting you and other people and simply try to remain as professionally impartial as possible. I respectfully request you consider the same.

[GethN7]

Need to discuss something important before I continue doing wiki cleanup, would like comments on the feasibility before I continue further, as this involves major changes to our category organization:

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Category:Funny

If you see this category, it has no subcategories, and the main page is a dumping ground of unsorted examples I've been parceling off to dedicated subpages to trim down repetition and duplicated effort, so far, so good.

The problem is with categories that have sub categories, like these:

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Category:Heartwarming

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Category:Nightmare_Fuel

Now, the subcategories are generally, if you ask me, an artifact of the PmWiki organization we had to partially preserve when we first started due to having a poor idea of how we wanted to structure things, but that no longer makes sense now we have a better idea how to sort things. I'd like to depreciate the subcategories because there are two other ways to make this easier to search through, and we could even use a mix of both if we like:

1. AdvancedSearch would allow a far more discrete "drill down" of certain items once CirrusSearch has been implemented, most of the issues discussed on Phabricator are generally technical issues with loadbalancing it on the servers in order to leverage it's usefulness for wikis that choose to use it (not all will need it and can use the default search engine adequately for most purposes, our content base would benefit the most from this). This would still be useful if we go with option two, but is not currently able to fully used due to the technical issues Miraheze is still hashing out, and it finally working would be a fine compliment to our other solutions:

2. The Cargo extension:

Cargo is a lightweight (and Miraheze friendly) alternative to the Semantic MediaWiki suite, and bundles most of the core functions in a simpler manner. The one we would need is here:

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension..._interface

This is a simplified version of Semantic DrillDown, a feature that would autogenerate drill down lists of pages that fit known criteria without requiring manual effort.

For example, if we enter a form to generate a drilldown for all pages that fit having the "Work", "Comics" and "Funny" categories, it would auto generate a full, fine grained list of all pages that match that criteria, and we could make sure this generates on the Category:Funny page to fulfill the same need as manual category tagging, only it requires no human effort (outside of setting up the initial drill-down list query) and is far more efficient in terms of accuracy over hand tagging certain pages with categories manually.

Miraheze does not allow the full version of Semantic MediaWiki for technical complexity concerns and is not needed, as Cargo can do the same work for less effort and get the same results.


I looked into Wikibase, but highly disrecommend considering it because it is immensely technical for our needs.

We could also try DynamicPageList3 in a similar manner as we use on the community portal to generate specific lists of pages belonging to certain categories for the subcategories display we would like to search through. This would require we establish some incredibly precise criteria for what to strip out and likely would be hard to sort unless our DPL calls were incredibly specific.


Alternatively, we can fully depreciate the subcategories like "Film/Funny" and just preserve them only as a dumping ground for unsorted examples that need their own subpages only.

This is something I highly prefer to solicit advice on because we could have a lot of tedious work to do no matter how we resolve this, and I'd prefer we hash out in advance what we will do going forward, given the scale of page content this will affect and our sorting schemas going forward.

P.S.: Page categories are determined either by manual tags (in cases where {{worksubpagefooter}} hasn't been set), or by the Lua scripting of said template where it has on the relevant subpages for works. Some modification of said template to inherit certain category tags from the base page depending on the category of work genre is another solution that could work, but that would require Brent's intervention, as Lua scripting is not my forte.