[OOC][RFC] Need to get something cleared up RE: multiple instances of characters

[Black Aeronaut]

I think the big thing that needs doing is to decide which Chibiusa is in the Metacontinuity. As per this post, we have a mix of manga and '90s anime characters.

I was trying to figure out what was rubbing me wrong about the whole mixing of the anime and manga characters like this, and I suddenly remembered...

https://theresnothingbetter.miraheze.org...displacees?

Doesn't that break with this?  Because if we're going to be having both anime and manga characters like that, then this matters even more because otherwise it's gonna confuse the hell out of a lot of people.

Don't get me wrong, I like it for the story telling potential.  And as Bob said, it's a very logical course to take.  But there is also another issue besides simply confusing the readers.

This is a Pandora's Box in that once you start letting the demons out, you can't simply stuff them back into their box.  Example: because of the whole Manga-Naru thing, we are now obligated to have Anime-Naru show up because otherwise Usagi is going to be very, *very* sad.

Unless you want to keep Usagi that way?  (Which also has interesting story telling potential.)  But that's not the implication I got.

And because you already have Manga-Naru, that also obligates us to have the rest of the SM Manga characters as well.

And if we do this with Sailor Moon, then that leaves the Box open for others to come out as well.  Which can mean that we could have as many as three versions of Motoko Kusanagi running around (Original, SAC, and Scar-Jo Film).

And yeah, rule of cool and all.  I'm not about to argue that it isn't....

...But that's a lot of characters to have to write about.  And we already have quite a lot as is.  We're gonna have our hands full just writing what we have now.  Unless we find more people who want in on the fun, this is gonna get very unmanageable, very fast.

But if everyone else wants to do it, then I'm not going to stand in the way of it.  Just keep in mind that it may be more headache than its worth.

Thoughts?  Bric-a-brac?  Kvetching?

[classicdrogn]

One one hand, not every character has to be more than a face in a crowd scene and a namedrop now and then for who someone was with off-camera, and even for big climactic battles there's only so many who can usefully fight in one location and most of the planning-types will recognize this, even assuming no minions or opportunistic rival bad guys to take up attention.

On the other hand, if you're letting in alternate timelines, Homura Akemi will fill entire apartment buildings if not cities with Madokas, and the cities full of other Homuras will fight anyone who tries to stop her. Because Madokuddlepile! (And the Madokas of course will want to bring all the versions of her friends too, because she's Madoka, and that also opens the gate to armies of Madoka's witch, and... etc.)

Of course, I'm not in on the project as such, and maybe this is even addressed in the linked page (which I therefore don't have access to) but here at least is the outside view for consideration.

[robkelk]

...

On the other hand, if you're letting in alternate timelines, Homura Akemi will fill entire apartment buildings if not cities with Madokas, and the cities full of other Homuras will fight anyone who tries to stop her. Because Madokuddlepile!

...

Source

[robkelk]

...But that's a lot of characters to have to write about.  And we already have quite a lot as is. 

As we discussed during the weekly chat, another possibility is to have the characters merge, thanks to Malleable Causality.

[classicdrogn]

(image)

What is best in life? To crush the kyubeys, see them broken before you, and hear the jubilation of Madoka!

As to the actual topic, merging duplicates can be touchy depending on how it's presented, and how much fridge logic/horror the audience reads into it. Is someone effectively getting killed if they end up nothing more than an extra set of memories in another character's head? Both of them if the balance is more even? Is it more like a book and each variation is a page, and if so do they turn pages, voluntarily or otherwise? Does the character model change if different between versions, ie age, hair color/style, etc.? What about clothes or accessories? Random stuff in their purse?

[Labster]

Obviously random stuff in their purse will change.  Artoria hasn't turned pages since that time the knights put a lazy susan on the Round Table.

Because causality is so weird, we can of course have multiple things going on at once, and get some duplicates if people really want them.

So the current plan I had for Policeman-san Jerry (Sora Naegino's #1 fan) is that there would be a guy named Jerry who works for the LAPD in the Metacontinuity Base Universe.  At the same time as the circus tent appears, he gets the memories of the other Jerry: being a police officer in Cape Mery, going to the stage, and having another girlfriend.  It seems like a dream that's too detailed, until he notices the stage that has suddenly appeared in Venice that everyone else thinks has always been there.

So probably a little traumatic, but not an existential level.  It's like if Kagome and Kikyou merged... they're still the same person with the same goals and love interest.  Or a better example might be Ellen in El Goonish Shive, who became more herself after getting a second lifetime's worth of memories.  Definitely less weird than DS9 Trill joining, or one of those snake-in-the-heads that Sam Carter had.  Or Chris Angel and the Paradoxes, for that matter (good name for a band).

For 90% of people, they won't even know something has changed.  Like a lot in the Metacontinuity, causality is malleable, and people think "hey, that circus tent has always been at the end of the pier" when it hasn't from the perspective an outside observer.  A merged character might just get a few extra memories that are congruent with their other memories.  Some memories will be incongruent enough for people to notice, like Jerry.  Hopefully we will catch most of them, though I imagine a few of them will be like canon Jack O'Neill having memories of a owning a barber shop and never telling people for years ("I found it relaxing."). Anyone having beyond a few incongruent pieces will be handled specially by the goddesses and and the managers... (cue organ music) or someone else.

This assumes each character has an immortal soul.  We know they do, because Belldandy says so, and she doesn't lie.  The portion of each person's soul flowing into each alternate universe is the same soul -- their memories are not who they are, but only how they lived.  On a metaphysical level, no one is getting killed by merging, just having an their true being expressed in a slightly different form.  Also the goddesses are going to fix this and send people back... right?

And when the other shoe drops and they restart the other universes but the Metacontinuity chugs along its own path, it really isn't killing anyone at all, but making new people, or new expressions of their souls.  One of the two reasons Arc 3 Tomo keeps putting herself in danger is because she knows that her other self will live a good and peaceful life, so it's okay if she dies for love and justice.  (The other reason is because she's an idiot.)

All that said I am really not sure what will happen to Andy Weir.  Or Stephen King for that matter.  Or anything Tsubasa.

The character model is -- surprise -- not the person.  People look like people, not like animu waifus.  The fiction is not a perfect representation either, so there can be straight up discrepancies with "canon" and reality (unsurprisingly mostly of a "fix fic" form).

In regard to the original topic, if we're keeping Drunkard's Walk compatibility, based on Chapter 4, I'm thinking Usagi is in some way all the Usagis when she needs to be.

[Bob Schroeck]

In regard to the original topic, if we're keeping Drunkard's Walk compatibility, based on Chapter 4, I'm thinking Usagi is in some way all the Usagis when she needs to be.

* Bob Schroeck thinks of a certain line in the DWS dev file and chuckles madly.

(#4927-8, Rob, if you're playing along at home.)

[robkelk]

Y'know, this discussion makes me tempted to use that bit I gave Bob last December for DW-S in TNB after all.

Then again, there's no reason we can't turn that bit into our own version of "Listen up, you primitive youma - this ... is my Moon Stick!"

So...

"Though I know the realm is vast
Still I call out to my past
Previous life I call to me
Serenity! Serenity! Serenity!"

The reflection in Usagi's mirror grinned and said "It's showtime!"

[classicdrogn]

(cool stuff)

In regard to the original topic, if we're keeping Drunkard's Walk compatibility, based on Chapter 4, I'm thinking Usagi is in some way all the Usagis when she needs to be.

I'm not super into Sailor Moon but isn't this direct (manga) canon for all of the line of Serenity, along with the Ginzuishou itself and possibly the other senshi and anyone with a Star Seed? Some kind of personified manifestation of the concepts of love and hope, or something along those lines.

[robkelk]

What about clothes or accessories?

There's a trope for that.

[robkelk]

(cool stuff)

In regard to the original topic, if we're keeping Drunkard's Walk compatibility, based on Chapter 4, I'm thinking Usagi is in some way all the Usagis when she needs to be.

I'm not super into Sailor Moon but isn't this direct (manga) canon for all of the line of Serenity, along with the Ginzuishou itself and possibly the other senshi and anyone with a Star Seed? Some kind of personified manifestation of the concepts of love and hope, or something along those lines.

That's one interpretation, and there is some fanon that follows it.

Anime canon diverges from manga canon in some important ways (such as Silver Millennium Princess Serenity dying while trying to rescue Endymion instead of committing suicide), and I've been using anime Usagi in TNB. So this might or might not apply as-is.

[Labster]

(cool stuff)

In regard to the original topic, if we're keeping Drunkard's Walk compatibility, based on Chapter 4, I'm thinking Usagi is in some way all the Usagis when she needs to be.

I'm not super into Sailor Moon but isn't this direct (manga) canon for all of the line of Serenity, along with the Ginzuishou itself and possibly the other senshi and anyone with a Star Seed? Some kind of personified manifestation of the concepts of love and hope, or something along those lines.

That's one interpretation, and there is some fanon that follows it.

Anime canon diverges from manga canon in some important ways (such as Silver Millennium Princess Serenity dying while trying to rescue Endymion instead of committing suicide), and I've been using anime Usagi in TNB. So this might or might not apply as-is.

I'm thinking the idea of them being personifications comes mostly by analogy to the Roman gods.  That theory hits more problems after the S season, because what does Vesta represent, love and animal taming?  Or Galaxia, and the "trash planet" she says she came from; is she the personification of love and bad decisions?  But it's still viable enough.

In my own headcanon, which is not part of this story but of my LotR cross, the girls have half-elven souls, which explains their longevity even while reborn as humans.  The star seed is a gift from each archangel, a portion of their power given to their champion.  Usagi has the gift of Varda Elentári, queen of the stars.  But in exchange for Elbereth's gift, she gave up both the Gift of Man and the Gift of Elves -- or in the words of Sailor Burning Heart, their destiny is to die "as many times as is necessary."  I haven't read through In Nomine but I'm guessing there's a concept there to describe this kind of relationship.  I don't think it's quite compatible with Drunkard's Walk unless there's an additional apotheosis step in there somewhere.

The reflection in Usagi's mirror grinned and said "It's showtime!"

Oh no, we're all tomatoes!