All The Tropes Wiki Project

[Morganite]

I'm looking at the forum being a place that points to active Talk Pages, but we'll see how things evolve.

*Morgan screams in terror*

I've been in fast-moving discussions with a large number of people on wiki talk pages. I never want to go back there.

Also, there's a lot of stuff that just doesn't need to be preserved in a wiki. Asking if anyone remembers the name of some trope/show, or if an example looks like it fits to anyone else, or things like that... after they're resolved, they can go away without it being much loss.

Brent, I kind of feel like you're not giving forums a fair shake here. There are some problems with how they turned out for TVT, but that didn't happen just because it's a forum, it happened because they structured and moderated it in a way that encourages it.

-Morgan.

[Bob Schroeck]

Thanks for the responses. I probably won't get a chance to do much with them until I get back from Philcon, but it's good to know. However, I think you misunderstood me on one point:

As for the link on the Wayback Machine, the Wayback Machine may not have scraped any links to the page in question from the old webhost or it may have had a robots.txt restriction on page scraping. I'm guessing that it may not have been able to scrape a working link at the time or it got back a corrupted result based on the error I got when I tried to access the link.

I have the link -- it's the one I included. It works, it has a page on the Archive. But Orain rejects it because "sytes.net" is part of the URL. After I get through the spam filter, this is what appears when I try to save:

* The text you wanted to save was blocked by the spam filter.
This is probably caused by a link to a blacklisted external site.
* The following text is what triggered our spam filter: sytes.net

Since sytes has apparently not existed for years, why is it still being filtered? And why when it's not the domain the URL goes to, but in a parameter?
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Labster]

Are you sure that some pages are missing? http://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/Turn-On_Tropes is present, and that was the ultimate page in the import.
-- ∇×V

[Morganite]

Are there images still to be uploaded? Because I noticed that page (and GethN7's user page) both are missing ones...

-Morgan.

[Labster]

Yes. They were previously imported, and then our friendly admin Kudu wiped the entire database, because neither Kudu nor GethN7 got that I asked for the "Main:" namespace to be dropped from the pages table (learn to SQL, n00bs). Heck, I even got de-adminned in the process

Anyway, the images are still sitting on the server, and once I get Kudu's attention, he'll reimport them.
-- ∇×V

[Bob Schroeck]

GethN7 wrote:

---

Update: I found the pages Tropes of Legend, Blackmail Is Such An Ugly Word, Cat Girl, The End of the World As We Know It, and Getting Crap Past The Radar, althougth under slightly different names. Due to how we had to parse the TVT information into MW, some of the alternate redirects may not have be imported completely. Combine that with the fact we're using a June 2012 version of information, and we have a lot that may differ with what is currently on TV Tropes.  

Yeah, late yesterday I discovered this myself, and have begun correcting for it. I haven't finished the full checking and conversion yet, so I can't give you a list of redlinks that appear to be genuine in which I would have confidence, but I'm beginning to suspect all I did was cry wolf.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Bob Schroeck]

Is there any way to change my username?  I just realized I used "LooneyToons" without a space in the middle, when all the existing references and links to my user page use "Looney Toons" with a space. 
Or do I have to recreate my account with the proper name and have you delete the bad one?
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[GethN7]

Bob SchroeckIs there any way to change my username?  I just realized I used "LooneyToons" without a space in the middle, when all the existing references and links to my user page use "Looney Toons" with a space. 

Or do I have to recreate my account with the proper name and have you delete the bad one?

MediaWiki has two extensions that allow for this, but we don't have direct control over user renames since we are part of a shared user farm (your log in name is valid across all Orain wikis) and giving local wikis control of this feature could screw up their global database something royally.

However, you could go to the below address on Orain Meta to get your name changed:

http://meta.orain.org/wiki/Steward_requests

The good news is that this will retroactively move all of your edits under the old name to the new name.

Also,  more good news. All we really have to do now is get the image import and their associated image description pages added, but the text seems to be more or less complete (any missing or corrupted pages notwithstanding, which I and vorticity will address), so if you want to start doing some serious editing to the text, that should no longer be a problem.

I have a fully functional bot running every so often that will be mass cleaning up template and parsing errors, but aside from that, there shouldn't be too many issues remaining.

[Bob Schroeck]

Thanks for that link; having never used Orain before I was obviously unaware of it. I've made the request. I take it you blanked out my user page in advance of the namechange, as it no longer has the contents it did this morning?
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Bob Schroeck]

And it's done now, and the contents of my user page are back. Weird.
EDIT:  But I can't edit the page and say "thanks" because my logins are not "unified"?  Again weird.
EDIT2:  Correction:  I cannot edit any page now:

You do not have permission to edit this page, for the following reason:
You cannot edit because your account is not unified.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Labster]

Okay, bugging them about your errors now.
Edit: Try having them go to http://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/Spe ... rgeAccount and merging their account, it should create a global account and resolve the problem (if not, then you'll have to wait for John or someone to further investigate)
-- ∇×V

[Bob Schroeck]

That did the trick, and in seconds, too.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Bob Schroeck]

Oh, and btw, while converting and fixing all the links on my user page, I found three pages whose names were mangled slightly in the import:

"Eyelid Pulltaunt" should be "Eyelid Pull Taunt"
"Sopranoand Gravel" ("Soprano and Gravel")
"The View Askew Niverse" ("The View Askewniverse")
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[GethN7]

Bob SchroeckOh, and btw, while converting and fixing all the links on my user page, I found three pages whose names were mangled slightly in the import:

"Eyelid Pulltaunt" should be "Eyelid Pull Taunt"
"Sopranoand Gravel" ("Soprano and Gravel")
"The View Askew Niverse" ("The View Askewniverse")

The good news is that this is easily fixable with a page move (ordinary users like yourself can do that) and fixing all the messed up wiki links (best done with a bot, though you can do it manually if you're feeling bored and have a LOT of time to kill)

[Labster]

Sadly, all of these would have been a 5 second fix before the import; all I would have had to do is to find/replace in one file. Of course, that file had 181475 lines, one for each page... so yeah, I missed some.

I need to add "Star Trek the Next Generation" to you list, as it should be "Star Trek: The Next Generation". It's minor, but still incorrrect. I guess I need to teach myself the art of botting -- Geth-dono is current wiki bot expert.  If anyone feels like doing this -- basically everyone who's posted this thread can get bot rights.
One more thing.  GethN7 wants forums in the wiki site.  Some of us, including me, have questioned the wisdom of having forums ... on a forum.  Yeah.  So basically, forums are probably a good idea, because we're going to want to communicate about the side-wide issues, and improving pages and such.  But just chatting about fictional works is probably not a good idea -- that's what the wiki content is for if it's relevant, and what the rest of the internet (or /dev/null) is for if it's not relevant.  So far as I know, we're pretty much agreed on that.  Anyone think it's a bad idea to have forums about the wiki itself?
-- ∇×V

[Tennie]

I'll say that I, personally, like the idea of having forums.  I found the TVT forums to be one of my most-visited sections of that site, and I feel that it would (in theory, at least) be a good idea to have some ability to have discussions under one roof.  Of course, like any forum worth its salt, it would need a good team of moderators in order to maintain some measure of overall quality.  In addition, users should be required to read the rules of the forums before posting to them (a decently large dosage of pre-posting lurking could also be recommended, especially as the forums grow, in order to get a proper feel for the forums and their culture.).

I understand why some of you may be ambivalent or even opposed to having forums for ATT, but I still think that, with proper care, such forums could flourish reasonably well.  But these are just, like, my opinions, man!

[GethN7]

Just to throw in my two cents here, the only reason I want some version of forums is for the discussion of technical issues regarding the wiki, cleanup projects, site policy discussion, stuff like that.

Example - Bob's earlier post about the screwed up word titles that needed fixing, site editing policy, suggestions for site code or features, page or category cleanup projects, etc.

Basically, internal matters only.

As for anything else, like discussion of politics, gardening, anime, or anything not in direct relation to the site, there are other places on the internet for that. (barring discussion pages and areas on the wiki designed for discussing those topics)

As for the "forum software", it would be purely in house, specifically, via this extension:

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:DPLforum

Having been a member of TV Tropes at one time, I do not want a forum in the sense they had it. Their forum tried to be a little bit of everything, successfully enough you could just haunt the forums and pretend the wiki never existed, which I don't want. Also, in the interests of not attracting the same issues as TV Tropes, I only wanted forums for in house concerns, though site policy/updates was going to be announced courtesy of site notices and/or mass messages (there is an extension for that I'm looking into). TV Tropes' forum attained a bad reputation due to their diversification into areas covered by other forums, while I merely would like them for technical/site related reasons only.

Finally, I asked Vorticity to float the idea first because I wanted to make it clear we discussed these issues between us and I had no intention of pulling the admin fiat card, as was common on TV Tropes. If the consensus does not want an on wiki fora for the reasons I would like them, I will respect their wishes without contest.

P.S. - This forum is not a bad place for discussion, but it would be far easier for me to keep track of wiki issues in house, as it were, which is one of the major reasons I even suggested this idea.

[Bob Schroeck]

My problems with the TVT forums are slightly different from Geth's -- it intensely bothered me that they had become more TVT than the wiki itself. A good example: there were people who thought I was an inactive user because I didn't visit the forums and instead spent all my time in the wiki. There's something profoundly wrong about that. The forum should not supplant the wiki as the community, it should do no more than support it.

I reluctantly agree that a forum is a better place to handle consensus-building and user-admin interaction than in the discussion pages. I just don't want to see it become the tail wagging the dog. I don't want to see what I saw on TVT, which is people who spent no time in the wiki thinking they were somehow more important because of their forum presence.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Labster]

Wait, let me get this straight: there are self-important idiots on the internet who think their own minor world is the most important one? I am shocked and dismayed.

I'm afraid I can't get rid of all of the idiots from the Net. All I can do is assure you that in my world, content is always king. And in this case, that means the wiki pages.

I'm looking at the forum being a place that points to active Talk Pages, but we'll see how things evolve.
-- ∇×V

[Bob Schroeck]

... I am growing very tired of cats.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[NifT]

Bob Schroeck wrote:

---

... I am growing very tired of cats.

As a cat person, I find this statement nonsensical

[GethN7]

Good news. We finally got a lot of the extensions I requested installed, and as a result, I can finally start implementing some more features

* does Happy Dance *

Anyway, get a look at this:

http://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/Template:Darth_Wiki

I've only configured it for the Darth Wiki pages on the Vector skin (support will be added for all skins, though Monaco may be a problem child :/), but feel free to take a look and give me an opinion.

If you have any CSS talents, feel free to work on it and improve the CSS styling.

I will be adding custom CSS/page templates for the other namespaces as well, but I just figured I'd show you guys the WIP version of the Darth Wiki custom CSS.

I have also added a feature to let people autocreate new pages with preloaded page templates that put down all the basics, so all tropers have to do is fill in the blanks with content: (in beta, should be functional, leave any comments or suggestion on the discussion page)

http://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/All ... ge_Creator

[Bob Schroeck]

Very cool, both of them. I was online last night while you were working on them, and when I saw them in the change log I was wondering when they'd be ready for prime-time...

Oh, another question -- is there an easy way to do a page name fix that just isn't obvious? I spotted another mangled name last night ("Likea Son to Me", I think it was), and I'd've been happy to take care of it if I knew how.

Edit:  And another another question:  I wanted to include a Wayback Machine link on my userpage to the earliest recorded troper list on TVT, but apparently its original location -- sytes.net -- gets rejected by some kind of filter.  Given that sytes.net no longer exists, and the real url is to archive.org, that's kind of silly.  I presume it's an Orain restriction, but is it a deliberate one, or something grandfathered in through a blacklist that's been maintained for a decade? 

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Bob Schroeck]

NifT wrote:

---

Bob Schroeck wrote:

---

... I am growing very tired of cats.

As a cat person, I find this statement nonsensical

Have you edited a page on the wiki that has external links yet?  I've done at least a dozen in the last couple days.  You would think that the parser would figure out if the URLs have changed or not before demanding you prove you are a human being by picking cats from a lineup.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[GethN7]

Bob SchroeckVery cool, both of them. I was online last night while you were working on them, and when I saw them in the change log I was wondering when they'd be ready for prime-time...

Oh, another question -- is there an easy way to do a page name fix that just isn't obvious? I spotted another mangled name last night ("Likea Son to Me", I think it was), and I'd've been happy to take care of it if I knew how.

Edit:  And another another question:  I wanted to include a http://web.archive.org/web/200406170828 ... ntributors on my userpage to the earliest recorded troper list on TVT, but apparently its original location -- sytes.net -- gets rejected by some kind of filter.  Given that sytes.net no longer exists, and the real url is to archive.org, that's kind of silly.  I presume it's an Orain restriction, but is it a deliberate one, or something grandfathered in through a blacklist that's been maintained for a decade?
 

To fix a page with a mangled name, click the Move tab (on the Vector skin, you can find this by hovering your mouse over the gray arrow next to the watchlist star icon). Once at the move page screen, type in the new title (leave a redirect so all the links can be cleaned up later with a bot), and leave a reason like "correction". The move page right is allowed by ordinary users and administrators alike (I moved that page you mentioned with my alternate user account as a demonstration).

Also, for help with MediaWiki, I have imported some MW help pages from MW.org, here:

http://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/Help:Contents

They need some cleanup, but they should fill you in on most of the basics.

As for the link on the Wayback Machine, the Wayback Machine may not have scraped any links to the page in question from the old webhost or it may have had a robots.txt restriction on page scraping. I'm guessing that it may not have been able to scrape a working link at the time or it got back a corrupted result based on the error I got when I tried to access the link. [table]