Don't give away too much, Nathan... and Ritsuko seems way too calm.
-- Bob
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Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
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Drunkard's Walk VI: Angel Baby
Teasers from "Drunkard's Walk: Angel Baby"
Teasers from "Drunkard's Walk: Angel Baby"
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Teasers from "Drunkard's Walk: Angel Baby"
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 Quote:Shock. Blessed be. -n =========== =============================================== "V, did you do something foolish?" "Yes, and it was glorious." 
Fair enough.
-- Bob --------- Then the horns kicked in... ...and my shoes began to squeak.
Maybe. Maybe. She's going to have to come considerably further out of her shell before we go that far.
-- Bob [I suppose, before I speak, which Rei are we talking about here, Rei II or Rei III? Either one, really, but . . . Is Rei's closed-mouth and strange outlook on life the fact that she's had a very f**cked up childhood Or that she is very much aware of what she is and why she's here and as well as having a very *alien* outlook on life? Rei obviously feels *something* for Gendo, and later shinji. affection, love, whichever. But that does not mean that she has a human outlook on life. At various points in the series, we get little rei monologues and they are very . . . calm, slightly disconnected, and strange. It is obvious, to me at least, that Rei could communicate consciouly with Shinji in his subconscious subway (i.e. the train of author-wanking) in that episode after unit 01 nearly kills touji. So is there, with Rei, anything TO fix? Is she one of the walking broken, as the others are? -murmur
So is there, with Rei, anything TO fix? Is she one of the walking broken, as the others are?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Yes and no. If she were to be judged as a potential well-adjusted human, she could be considered broken. If she's judged as Rei, half-human clone of her pseudo-father's dead wife, then she's under-developed, not broken. She needs guidance on normal human behaviors and thought patterns to fill in the gaping holes in her conditioning. Quote:I'd say the best way to rate Rei is "functionally autistic", and I don't think it's merely a product of Gendo's marvelous parenting skills. Rei I was obviously emotionally "out there", and II and III weren't any better. If I had to lay out a theory, I'd say that Lilith's soul is fundamentally incapable of understanding human perceptions -- kind of like someone plugging a 110v appliance into a 220v outlet. Doug would have to create a metaphysical adapter so they could properly interface. Of course, there are an infinite number of other interpretations. This is just mine...at the moment. Quote:My personal interpretation is that she's in pretty much the same condition as the other pilots, that these damage patterns are deliberate, and that they have nothing to do with whether or not a person can control an Eva and everything to do with whether SEELE/Gendo can control that person. The interpretation Bob's using in the story is different. I can't say what it is, because it's a plot point. I will go out on a limb and say that, yes she is damaged and yes, it is something Doug can help with. Sort of. He'll have major help. Blessed be. -n =========== =============================================== "V, did you do something foolish?" "Yes, and it was glorious."
Quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sort of. He'll have major help. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh, help like whoever he was talking about when he first daw Rei, in the tearser? Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The last time I had seen an aura like that, I had been helping a fallen goddess regain her place in Heaven. Whoever this child was, she had Celestial blood in her. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I would think that Rei would need to have veiws from all of the sides of her being/self to be truly healed. She isn't human, but she isn't Celestial. Quote:Well, by the very fact that Doug's coming into the story more or less in the middle of the Seventh Angel affair, this is by necessity Rei II. Quote:That's a very good question, and important for characterization. I'm still studying the show to learn more, but it seems to me that it's a bit of both. By the time of epsiodes 25/26, D&R and EoE (if not earlier), Rei certainly seems aware that she's something other than a simple human being, and is informed enough that she can (at least in some interpretations) thwart Gendo by choosing a different path through the process of Third Impact. She has to know that she's different in some fundamental way earlier, too, simply by virtue of the fact that she's frequently in the presence of the tanked clones. But I also think that XenoP is right that she's "functionally autistic", and that it was intentionally induced (as Nathan says) as a matter of control. Certainly a Rei like the one in Shinji's ep 26 alternate universe would never have let herself be used as she was. Quote:I've spent a while trying to figure out how to reply to this without giving things away. I'll have to risk this answer: Within the context of the Drunkard's Walk, yes -- Rei is (intentionally) deprived of her social and emotional heritage on both sides of her ancestry. Hmm. That didn't come out quite the way I wanted, but I'm out of time and have to start work (8:30 am here). I'll think about it and see if I can revise it at lunch. (And answer the other posts.) -- Bob (Edit: When I came back at lunch, what I wrote looked more or less OK after all. I did add some qualifiers to the early part of the big paragraph on Rei, just to clarify some obscure phrasing.) -- Bob --------- Then the horns kicked in... ...and my shoes began to squeak. Quote:Okay, I'll admit this -- I started plotting out DW6 almost two years ago, long before I learned that Rei's soul is supposed to be Lilith's. That tidbit causes a little problem with my plot, but I think I can work around it: just as Rei's body is cloned from Lilith's and Yui's, Rei's soul is also a hybrid construct, grown from a fragment of Lilith's (which actually makes Lilith's "Welcome back" line make more sense) and a fragment of at least one human's. Who would be the human donor? I'd have fun and say anyone who seems excessively cold or inhuman during the show -- Gendo would be a natural choice for a soul donor. Maybe Naoko Akagi (although I'd have a hard time justifying that, given her reaction to Rei I, unless it was without her knowledge). Or what about a very young Ritsuko? In her case the damage at first would seem slight, but would get worse over time... Mind you, this is just an off-the-cuff idea that I came up with right now. But I'd be interested in seeing what folks think of it. -- Bob --------- Then the horns kicked in... ...and my shoes began to squeak. Quote:More properly, he calls in major help because he knows he's out of his league. -- Bob --------- Then the horns kicked in... ...and my shoes began to squeak. Quote:Actually, she makes perfect sense. Gendo took part of her soul for use in Rei, and then dumped her for Rei. This way Rei has in some ways stolen her soul in addition to her man. If that happened to me I can definitely see me going homicidal on the person who did that. Plus, a case can be made that Naoko Akagi's loss of her soul was what led to her suicide as well. There's many other different things floating around in my head right now on this one, but I'll take the rest to the pre-readers list later to avoid public spoilers on the discussion. Offsides Drunkard's Walk Forum Moderator and Prereader At Large
Slight problem: Naoko Akagi's soul is currently taking up residence in Unit 00. (Thus, yes, Naoko Akagi's suicide was due to the loss of her soul, but it wasn't because Rei's got it.)
My big trouble with the hybrid-soul thing is that I sincerely do not think they've got the metaphysical technology to do that kind of thing. If they did, they'd have managed to shoehorn something into the rest of the Rei-quarium that could at least do more than giggle and look creepy. They couldn't even manage to keep the Eva units from sucking down a soul at at will when they were feeling a bit peckish. Now, I could see Lilith's soul having been fractured or split in transit to Rei...though I think she'd have significantly more problems than she does, had that happened. In the end, I still have to say that it's more likely that they just did the functional equivalent to duct taping a human brain to the nervous system of a sea anemone. Lilith's Soul is to Human Mind as Square Peg is to Round Hole. Quote:A problem solved with a large enough hammer? ![[Image: smile.gif]](http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/smile.gif) -Z, Post-reader at Medium ---- If architects built buildings the way programmers write programs, the first woodpecker to come along would destroy civilization.
I don't like the idea that Rei's soul is inherently 'different' and/or 'incompatible' with human life as we know it. For one thing, it implies predestination, which is a loathesome concept to apply to any sort of sentient being. Yes, Rei is biologically a bit, well, wierd, but that doesn't make her some kind of incomprehensible eldritch horror.
A big part of her problem, I think, is that she's been told all her life that it does - that she is a monster, an alien, a clone, a doll. Bullshit. She's injured, damaged, yes - but she wasn't defective straight out of the box! Now, the argument that her 'differences' include sufficient changes to biology, developement, and sensorium to produce a very different experience from the standard 'human' mold might have some validity - but in a healthy developemental environment, that wouldn't make any more difference than, say, growing up with six fingers or an extra joint on your thumbs. Quote:You're assuming that Nerv would -want- them to do more than they already do. Oh, and an assumption everyone else seems to be making - that the act of patterning from a soul is neccessarily destructive to the source-soul. Given the existence of the Eva's synchro systems, this strikes me as a little unlikely. Why do Evas occaisionally eat their pilots like that? Well, they have their own 'souls', but creating the things requires a bit of a jump start... Blessed be. -n =========== =============================================== "V, did you do something foolish?" "Yes, and it was glorious." Quote:Where is this from? I know Yui Ikari's soul was taken into EVA-01 but I don't remember Naoko Akagi ever getting into an Eva... Either way, I'm sure Bob'll figure something good out Offsides Drunkard's Walk Forum Moderator and Prereader At Large Quote:You know, I've heard this, too, from a number of non-canon sources, but I can't remember if I ever heard it from Evangelion proper. Ah, well, more research... -- Bob --------- Then the horns kicked in... ...and my shoes began to squeak. Quote:Not really. It just means that souls aren't one-size-fits-all...or at least, they need a bit of retooling at the Cosmic Soul Recycling Center between uses. Quote:She's the biological and metaphysical fusion of human and hostile, otherworldly other. If that isn't the very definition of "incomprehensible" and "eldritch", I'd like to know what is. And "horror" is entirely subjective. Quote:We can't even clone a sheep and have it last more than a couple of years, and you'd be suprised if they made a little "oops" when creating some strange human/angel hybrid just three or four years after retrieving Adam? Second Impact EVA-verse tech level appeared to be on par with our own -- they just managed to drum up a shitload of funding. Quote:Utter bullshit. There are any number of purely physiological conditions which result in an inability to comprehend normal human relations, regardless of "healthy developmental environment" -- and I feel quite certain that Rei most definitely did not have said environment. Quote:I'm assuming that Nerv would want their dummy plugs to be able to create a functional AT field. Quote:I'm pretty sure that Lilith woudn't have hung around after the Lance of Longinus was removed from her chest if Rei hadn't been playing steward for her soul, as I'm not aware of any other necessary bits of Lilith that Rei has. Quote:All I know is that Shinji explicitly recognizes his mother's soul in Unit-01, as does Asuka in Unit-02. Seems more a case of soul-osmosis to me. Quote:It isn't canon, truthfully, but it is most probable case, barring more definitive evidence. It's also the most popular theory, as about 2/3 of those sites that I've found that address the issue of who's soul is in Unit-00 point towards Naoko Akagi. 1. Someone has to be in there, as evidenced by Units 01 and 02. 2. The first-activation escapade showed that whoever's in there has a serious mad-on for Gendo, and no great liking for Rei. 3. Soul-loss is the most likely reason for her spontaneous suicide, as she showed no indication of seeing Rei as "human", thus Rei I's death would not be especially guilt-worthy. 4. Using her soul to power Unit-00 would fit Gendo's style of vengeance for the death of Rei I. 5. It fits in perfectly with Hideaki Anno's apparent urge to cause as much emotional pain for his characters as possible. Quote:Um? 'Rei's soul is not a perfect human soul and therefore she'll always be borderline-autistic and that's just the way things are' isn't a case of determining the course of someone's entire existence based on something that they themselves had absolutely nothing to do with? Sounds like the good old Calvinist line to -me-. Quote:Last I checked, Angels weren't any farther from human than a lobster. 98% and change similarity, just like everything else on the planet? Certainly they're not -human-, but saying that that fact means that they're somehow forever beyond mortal ken is just more Lovecraft nonsense. As to hostile, well, it's not like we know what this whole fight's -about-. Quote:Amen. Quote:Now, I didn't follow the whole 'Dolly' thing closely enough to know what the muttonchop's particular problem was, but I'm willing to buy that Gehirn could manage an effective clone. As to the 'fusion' argument, I'd reccomend a google on "genetic hybrids" - most of what comes up is vegetable related, but IIRC they've been doing animal testing for years. Quote:There's no question that her environment's, put it flatly, shit. That's not what I'm arguing - I'm just saying that there's nothing intrinsicly wrong with the girl. Anyway, I'll grant that my argument doesn't work. And, not knowing much of anything on the subject, I can't offer a reasoned case for it -not- applying to Rei - although I'll note that the fact that she improves as time goes by (where an untreated chronic illness would presumably either worsen or maintain a steady state) doesn't seem to jive. Quote:Que? It didn't, against Bardiel? Quote:This assumes that the Lance is/was Lilith's only restraint. Nerv/Gehirn manages to create functional, durable, portable restraints for the Evas - why not an immobile unit for Lillith? At a guess, I'd say it looks like a cross... Quote:Is a photograph a person? IIRC, Shinji's interaction with 'the spirit of 01' takes place after he's absorbed. Strange things happen to a person's mind in sensory deprivation. Unit 02, also to my memory, never actually responds to Asuka with anything more than warm fuzzy feelings - which could just as easily be the 'wavelength' Langely Sr. was on when the system did its "ZAP!" trick. For that matter, I'm not saying that a pattern copy -can't- be destructive to its source, just that it doesn't need to be. All of this should be taken with a grain of salt, and filtered through the knowledge that I haven't actually -seen- the last half of the series, and also that my 1st and 2nd reactions the hearing about some symbolic revelation are that whatever its supposed to be or people think it is, is wrong. Symbolism. *retch* Blessed be. -n =========== =============================================== "V, did you do something foolish?" "Yes, and it was glorious." Quote:Not even close. Here, we have a soul that has spent billions of years immersed in Lilith's sensorium. Rei's meager ten years of life experience is not going to come even close to overwriting that. I'm spectacularly amazed that she managed to change as much as she did. Give her a couple millennia and she might be able to become happy and well adjusted. Better yet, give her fifteen minutes with whatever metaphysical psychosurgeon Doug's going to call in and she might be able to do the same in a couple years. Quote:So, you're saying that the average lobster wouldn't find us incomprehensible? And American Heritage defines eldritch as "strange or unearthly; eerie", which, as I see it, the Angels undeniably are, as is, by extension, Rei. Quote:When in battle, the enemy is hostile, regardless of the "why". Quote:Non-issue. I have no doubt that they could manage the biology part. It's the metaphysical stuff I think they're taking potshots in the dark on. Quote:Think less in terms of "degenerative mental illness" and more in terms of "social learning disorder". She can learn normal human social patterns -- she just has to unlearn a couple billion years of alien emotional template first. Quote:An AT-Field requires a soul to power it, and the Rei-bots used in the dummy plugs have none. In any case, I never saw anything to indicate that AT-Fields were ever really used when it got down to hand-to-hand combat -- they only ever brought it up when projectiles were involved. Quote:I'd say it looks like the world's ugliest Christmas-tree ornament, but that's neither here nor there. "[...]Functional, durable, portable restraints for the Evas[...]"? I'll grant portable, as well as durable to a point, but functional? As far as I can see, Unit-01 did whatever it wanted from day one, when it kept the falling girder from crushing Shinji. Said restraints also did precisely jack to keep Unit-00 from spazing on first activation. As for Lilith's cross, it looks to me more like a convenient hanger. The instant Rei returned Lilith's soul, Lilith just slid right off. Lilith was bound only by her incompleteness. Quote:Indisputable Canon Fact: Yui Ikari's soul is in Unit-01; Kyoko Zeppelin Sohryu's soul is in Unit-02. So sayeth the Red Cross Book, so mote it be. Quote:This isn't a case of copying a source soul. They are literally moving the soul to another body/being. Quote:Bah. I take this to mean you haven't seen / don't like Serial Experiments Lain, in which case you are an uneducated heathen. Back to your cave, knuckledragger!
THIS is a general reply to much of what I've seen, but don't feel like copy-and-pasting on.
REI (and LILITH) as "Celestial" (which is defined as "of or relating to heaven, or sublime): . . . I . . . guess . . . Though it's important to remember two things about Eva: the Angels were stated to have been "possible forms of man" AS WELL AS the children of Adam; whereas men were the children of Lilith, the Lilim, who was cast out of Eden and had children by demons. So: celestial, yes. Lilith is celestial, but not sublime. This may be a bit of a digression, but there was a gnostic sect named the Adamites who believed that Adam reincarnated through history, eventually becoming Jesus. Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I suppose, before I speak, which Rei are we talking about here, Rei II or Rei III? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, by the very fact that Doug's coming into the story more or less in the middle of the Seventh Angel affair, this is by necessity Rei II. [Ah, okay. So, the almost normal Rei, then.] Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is Rei's closed-mouth and strange outlook on life the fact that she's had a very f**cked up childhood Or that she is very much aware of what she is and why she's here and as well as having a very *alien* outlook on life? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's a very good question, and important for characterization. I'm still studying the show to learn more, but it seems to me that it's a bit of both. By the time of epsiodes 25/26, D&R and EoE (if not earlier), Rei certainly seems aware that she's something other than a simple human being, and is informed enough that she can (at least in some interpretations) thwart Gendo by choosing a different path through the process of Third Impact. [that's how I see it, by golly!] She has to know that she's different in some fundamental way earlier, too, simply by virtue of the fact that she's frequently in the presence of the tanked clones. [uh huh.] But I also think that XenoP is right that she's "functionally autistic", and that it was intentionally induced (as Nathan says) as a matter of control. [hmm. won't really argue, there's enough leeway for either interpretation. by "functionally autistic," does this mean that she has autism but can function, or what she has isn't autism but ACTS LIKE IT? (ain't english grand?)] Certainly a Rei like the one in Shinji's ep 26 alternate universe would never have let herself be used as she was. [was that a plug for GARDEN OF EVA?] Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So is there, with Rei, anything TO fix? Is she one of the walking broken, as the others are? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've spent a while trying to figure out how to reply to this without giving things away. I'll have to risk this answer: Within the context of the Drunkard's Walk, yes -- Rei is (intentionally) deprived of her social and emotional heritage on both sides of her ancestry. [okay. [No, wait; not okay. Nokay! Do the angels/lilith HAVE a social and emotional heritage? And if so, is this because you are trying to fit Eva's cosmology into your (i.e. gods are powerful children who represent cosmic forces, like how the norns in amg now represent the triune goddess dealy with the moons, and nature, and cats, and feminine power or how nyarlathotep represents pessimistic jerkfaces) cosmology, with doug being able to contact gods through songs like "grandma got run over by a reindeer"? not that there's anything wrong with that. really. i guess. maybe i should just shut up about canon. it's not like he's going to follow amg manga exactly, anyway, so why worry . . . -murmur who says: Doug in SCRYED! See Doug conflicted between keeping those damned out of control alters in line and not being part of that damned fascist government org. or, alternately: Doug in BGC 2040! "You know, Priss, no matter which universe you're in, you'll always be a sour persimmon."
Gah...can't parse....
Quote tags are your friend. Quote:Functionally Autistic == Doesn't have autism, but displays the symptoms. High-Functioning Autism == Has autism, but can function passably in society. Quote:"Doug in [BUBBLEGUM CRISIS]! See Doug conflicted between keeping those damned out of control [boomers] in line and not being part of that damned [bigoted vigilante] org." Not exactly a one-to-one comparison, but I think enough carries over to indicate where Doug would likely land on that issue.
Okay, I've been holding back on replying for the last day or two because I was worried this was about to devolve into a flamefest. I think we've passed the crisis point here, though.
It's too close to starting time here at work for me to jump into the large-scale reply/repikes that I want to make -- twenty minutes isn't enough for me to do the job. I'll probably have to wait until I get home tonight. But I want to address a couple of things quickly. XenoP: If Nathan hasn't seen Lain, we'll cure that the next time he comes over our place. Murmur: Yes, I'm trying to fit Eva into the meta-cosmology I've espoused elsewhere. I'm going to accomplish a lot of that simply by taking Anno's route and not explaining too much, and leaving some things simply ineffable. Remember, too, that I'm using aspects of In Nomine to flavor how these things work; this may smooth out some of the rough spots for you. In such a case, the Lilith in Terminal Dogma might be nothing more than an unused Vessel... I don't want to say any more. It's still too early; the story is still in too much flux. I don't want to say "X is happening" and then have something that develops in a later part of DW5 (for instance) blow that away. -- Bob --------- Then the horns kicked in... ...and my shoes began to squeak.
Josh and I have worked out a potential solution, and I've even written some new material around it. Looks like it'll work.
No, I'm not sharing any of it at the moment. Sorry... -- Bob --------- Then the horns kicked in... ...and my shoes began to squeak. |
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