[OOC] Judgement Call Needed

[Kokuten]

looking at the With Liberty thread, I think we need a consensus judgement call on Haruhi's competence level - she's either incompetent or not, and we need to decide it out of story, IMO.
Personally, I could go either way, and I'm interested in hearing from my fellow FenniesWire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[Foxboy]

I think a point can be made for her competence being rather high, if unorthodox.
The main problem is, she thinks in terms of "dramatic necessity" and "anime budgets" rather than "cautious overkill."
I'd say that she's "burned" every major player at least once. The final overall outcome of each event has been positive for the "story arc." But what makes an exciting space opera STORY is scary as all get out for the schlubs living it.
Frex: I'm pretty sure the Pinafore had to "take out" several Boskonians before it got refitted with hardtech weaponry. The sheer cool factor of the Space yacht outmaneuvering purpose-built fighters in an asteroid field makes an awesome visual for Haruhi's records, but Corcoran, the Dobbses and Tabitha were less than impressed with the Adrenalin overdose.
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[M Fnord]

The general idea I've been trying to lay down:
a) Haruhi's Always Right, while appropriate when looking at things from *her* perspective (or the SOS-dan's perspective) is unsettling and/or suspicious when looked at from the outside.
b) Like Foxboy said, Haruhi's desire for dramatic necessity leads her into a near-sociopathic disregard for the well-being of the people under her command.
Those are the two points driving Cap'n Mal's fury in the For Liberty threads. For him, it's not a question of "competence" (Haruhi's a competent general. But then, so was Douglas Haig.) but a question of trust.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Valles]

The core of my interpretation is that Haruhi at 23 is not Haruhi at 16. In high school she embraced the cliches; in college she started subverting them. In the beginning she knew what people thought of her and didn't give a flying fuck; by the 'present' she knows what people think and is quite willing to use it to demonstrate Barnum's famous dictum about birthrates. Which last was the tone I was writing her 'Peons' post in - a joke in bad taste, perhaps, but mostly at her own expense.
a) Haruhi really hates to lose, and considers 'fair' to be something that applies to others in this respect, if at all. I think it'd be just like her to take every loss personally.
b) I'll admit that I still haven't finished watching the full series, but IIUC, the universe actually does end up doing the 'collapse and remake' thing at one point... and all that changes is her hairstyle. This doesn't strike me as the action of someone who's unaware of consequences and repercussions.
c) Fen, particularly the Big Name variety, are almost by definition interesting and different from their predecessors. Which, for Haruhi, is the entire point.
d) She's got a confident expectation of a High Space Opera setting kicking in in ten to twenty-five years. OGJ is just the prologue for that, and hence subject to different dramatic rules.
e) Being postive in one's assessment of fictional characters, in my experience, creates a much more pleasant and entertaining reading experience than being negative.
Ja, -n

===============================================
"I'm terribly sorry, but I have to kill you quite horribly now."

[M Fnord]

---

e) Being postive in one's assessment of fictional characters, in my experience, creates a much more pleasant and entertaining reading experience than being negative.

---

As the old saying goes, when you're up to your ass in alligators it's hard to remember your original plan was to drain the swamp.
As a *writer* I'm willing to accept that Haruhi is honestly trying to do the Right Thing, save the world (cheerleader not included unless you count Mikuru) and all that jazz. Problem is, the *characters* bouncing around in my head are looking at her and seeing something different. And thus we have conflict between Haruhi and her support base.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Kokuten]

---

And thus we have conflict between Haruhi and her support base.

---

Ayup - when I read that 'peons' line, my first reaction was "oh, hell, now I'm gonna have to choke-a-bitch"
Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[CattyNebulart]

You can't choke Haruni. The universe any everytyhing (the SOS-dan foremost) will prevent it. And Haruni is oddly hyperompetent at everything too, even though it may not seem that way to the characters, much like her baseball team organization skills are phenomenal (her team never lost, did it?), even though it does not seem that way to the hapeless peons actually acomplishing the tasks.
As a side not the Professor fully support Haruni, and the rest of the crew just follow his lead. So there is some more support comming for Haruni, once I get around to writing it. I'm laggin behind a bit but I'm caught up in tech problems and RL stuff at the moment.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

[Ebony]

As I think I mentioned before, the BBI really don't care what she things. OBJ has its uses, and they're going to capitalize on it, but Blackstone has no problems going off and doing things without her orders, knowledge, advice, etc. If she orders him to do something, his most likely reaction is to blink slowly, smile, and say, in his patented "This is my Texas drawl, so you think I'm stupid." voice, "I'll let Buckaroo know you want that done." And then he'll relay it to the other BBIs, and it'll be considered. If it falls into their operations, they'll incorporate some or all of it. If it doesn't, it will be quietly ignored. It's called the Banzai Institute, not the Suzumiya Institute.
I feel I should point out that I haven't seen the anime, and for all intents and purposes, neither has the crew of WW1. Their reaction to everyone kowtowing to Haruhi is one of bemused tolerance. If she's responsible for this whole mess, lovely, but they're going to need more proof than just her faction's insistence. There are more than a few Doubting Thomases among the Irregulars.
All that being said, my thought on the matter is that, if Haruhi is Always Right, maybe the alienation of these assorted faction leaders and personalities is part of making sure that OBJ succeeds. The driving away of various folks allows those folks to attack the Boskonian problem from different angles, to spite Haruhi and her overblown melodramatic nonsense. The question is whether this is an unconscious reflex, making sure her plans succeed, or a conscious Machiavellan manipulation. I leave that up to people more familiar with the series.Ebony the Black Dragon
Senior Editor, Living Room Games
http://www.lrgames.com
Ebony the Black Dragon
http://ebony14.livejournal.com

"Good night, and may the Good Lord take a Viking to you."

[KJ]

Heh, I was thinking about this m'self. I've stayed out of the Lib and GJ thread because, the way I see it, my character has been really looking at things narrowly enough to not have much to say either way.
I tend to agree with Mal; whether or not she *is* always right (and I'm willing to go either way) is secondary to how some of the characters are seeing her.
Ebony's thoughts though... now there's a good one. Even if you've not seen the series, that hit pretty much how things work. She issues orders that may seem insane to some of us, some people work around them behind the scenes, things work out for reasons totally unrelated to what she seemed to be directing.
Thought of another way, she's a forceful and charismatic personality delegating authority in unconventional ways.... and the way we're reacting is pretty much how she's used to things working. Whether it's conscious or not... well bugger, who can tell?

[robkelk]

---

looking at the With Liberty thread, I think we need a consensus judgement call on Haruhi's competence level - she's either incompetent or not, and we need to decide it out of story, IMO.

---

My take on Haruhi's competence level is: Does it really matter?
Disclaimer: I still haven't actually seen the anime (my copy of volume 1 is still held up in Customs); I'm going by what others have written about her or in her character.
So... Haruhi's used to dealing with people who, sooner or later, agree with her. Fenspace is made up of rugged individualists (the Heinleinians most obviously, but they don't have a monopoly on stubbornness); not everyone in this setting is going to agree with her. This culture clash alone is enough to derail her best-laid plans, no matter how competent she is.

---

Those are the two points driving Cap'n Mal's fury in the For Liberty threads. For him, it's not a question of "competence" (Haruhi's a competent general. But then, so was Douglas Haig.) but a question of trust.

---

This doesn't help Haruhi "win friends and influence people", either...
As long as she has to work through normal or slightly abnormal people, her plans aren't going to be followed to the letter. Presenting herself in such a way that people don't trust her (and none of the SOS-dan are stupid enough to let her go anywhere near the front lines, which is the only thing that'll get some of the movers and shakers to trust her) simply compounds the matter.
If her plans aren't followed, it doesn't matter how good those plans are.

---

You can't choke Haruni. The universe any everytyhing (the SOS-dan foremost) will prevent it.

---

The SOS-dan will prevent it, or at least try to, but the universe couldn't care less (unless she really is a god, which is A Matter Of Canonical Doubt).

-Rob Kelk
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Kokuten]

starting to sound like 'our' Haruhi is shaping up into a freaking Miles Vorkosigan (for whatever value of 'miles', other than his brother, you wanna take), without the charisma.
Speaking in character, I'd probably follow additional orders, but I'd certainly not be charging in blindly like I did initially..
one of the truisms I've seen is that a competent commander never gives an order they know won't be followed.. Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[Norgarth]

recent threads have caused two bits to form in my mind. the once concerning Haruhi was my character 'posting to the thread' a comment about 'does she assign ships to tasks by picking them out of a hat?'
basicly indicating that sometimes she sends people off hunting chipmunks with a machinegun and other times you're hunting grizzly with a .22 pistol.
***
The other bit, inspired by the combat scene thread, has the Starhawk doing a strafing run against a Reaver mothership/base and a squad of APEs deploying out the back hatch.
"I'm going to have a serious talk with whoever told the Librarian that the Reavers torched Hogwart's library." - the pilot/passenger of APE unit 3(aka The Librarian)__________________
I bet that if you cooked an elephant, you'd have a lot of leftovers.
___________________________
"I've always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific." - George Carlin

[Valles]

---

From your government's own National Space Policy, as crafted by President Giuliani's staff and duly signed off on by the Congress: "The United States will oppose the development of new legal regimes or other restrictions that seek to prohibit or limit U.S. access to or use of space."

---

Well.
There goes every single one of my plans and assumptions about the setting.
So, whatever happened to the happy-go-lucky, forward-thinking milieu I remember first being suggested?
Ja, -n
(mildly miffed, yes, but mostly startled)

===============================================
"I'm terribly sorry, but I have to kill you quite horribly now."

[M Fnord]

I didn't make that quote up, incidentally. That's an actual line from the 2006 National Space Policy, duly authorized by hizonner George Bush. Not that that makes it any better, mind.

---

So, whatever happened to the happy-go-lucky, forward-thinking milieu I remember first being suggested?

---

Operation Great Justice.
Okay, that's too glib. I think the whole war/politics vibe from OGJ (especially the last couple of OGJ threads) has kind of wrapped itself around our brains a little *too* tightly and has us backed into a gloomy corner we don't know how to get out of.
Frankly, I'd be happy enough if we got out of this mess and got on to something interesting, like meeting the Ziru Sirka or something equally LOL-worthy. It's just that I don't know *how* at this point.
...help...---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[KJ]

---

Okay, that's too glib. I think the whole war/politics vibe from OGJ (especially the last couple of OGJ threads) has kind of wrapped itself around our brains a little *too* tightly and has us backed into a gloomy corner we don't know how to get out of.

---

*whistles innocently* Uhm... aheh... shoot. Maybe I've been doing that other project for too long. ^_^;;
Getting out of this, personally, I'm leaning towards ideas on the order of "somehow or another, OGJ gets resolved conclusively enough, we form something with just enough authority to run a militia/police force to head stuff off like this, and that particular badness falls to a low background hum".
I mean, Noah mentioned the thought that he was wondering if OGJ was degenerating into a War on Crime, so we avoid that. ICly, we eliminate the problem of the central badguy (or organization or whatever, but this is cinematic so there's going to be one of course) we decide that we've had enough playing soldier (because we don't have a political stake in keeping the war going and we're for the most part intelligent people), and most of us taper off and go do something else. Maybe somewhere down the line we get into a conflict with the landdwellers over something (traditional governments being touchy, go fig) maybe we don't.
Call it birthing pains of the new society, whatever... we can get this out of our (the writer's) systems and have our characters go do stuff that's more fun for them.
Or something, what the heck do I know?

[M Fnord]

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Uhm... aheh... shoot. Maybe I've been doing that other project for too long. ^_^;;

---

You & me both, man. I swear...---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Valles]

---

Frankly, I'd be happy enough if we got out of this mess and got on to something interesting, like meeting the Ziru Sirka or something equally LOL-worthy. It's just that I don't know *how* at this point.

---

Hm. Possible course of action:
OGJ thread leads to 'Secrets Summit' - which in turn blows Itsuki's cover wide open and possibly lays the 'real government' foundation being discussed at that point... Anyway, Fenspace says, 'Hey, cool!' Mundania says, *shrug* 'Eh.' (Of course... -is- it ever actually established just what espers can do and when?) That, in turn, shakes loose a key couple of facts from his pockets and one or two more from various Main Characters' heads, and lets... say, MI-5, just to be different... put the puzzle together in time to go, 'Oh, shit, they've got a superweapon.'
Cue Desperate Battle At The Highest Stakes, with which we can resolve most plot threads and kill off at least some of the rest.
Then the Miranda gets home...
Ja, -n

===============================================
"I'm terribly sorry, but I have to kill you quite horribly now."

[KJ]

That's an idea. The only thing is, personally, I don't like like the idea of cracking the cover of the SOS ICly; if it's established that they are who they were in the series, it starts distorting things, y'know? I liked that their role in things (other than Haruhi herself being persuasive and whatnot) was ambiguous. Maybe other people don't. Discussion!
The superweapon thing... heh, see the thread leading to infiltration/recon in force, eh? I'm getting an idea where the milsenshi and hardsuited loony get stuck to where they can't break cover and get away without getting deaded, thus... waiting... for the Desperate Battle dealie. But that's neither here nor there.

[Foxboy]

I know at least one battle should involve the The Dobbses leading a SPANC boarding team.
Space
Pirate
Amazon
Ninja
Catgirl
After all, those who've been catgirled deserve their pound of flesh, ne?
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[M Fnord]

Heh, it's funny. I was *just* in the middle of working up a message for the OGJ thread where Mal, having finally lost all patience for trying to talk with/at AAA (who *is* Natalie, right?) does what he should've done in the first fucking place and goes straight to Haruhi with an olive branch... and also mentions AAA's claims of secrets with the universe at stake. Thereby setting the outing of the SOS-dan in motion. Obviously Mal doesn't *know* anything at that point beyond a few wild statements, but from mere snowflakes do mighty avalanches grow.
The distortion factor is worrisome, but there are ways to handwave around that if we decide to go that far. Besides, if we're going to assume that Haruhi has matured emotionally since the end of the anime, then the whole bit where the SOS-dan is freaked about her ending the universe might end up looking... silly.
That'd make for an interesting capper to a Secrets Summit. Everything comes out; the espers, Mikuru's future humans, the Core Entities, and they're all waiting for Haruhi to snap and end the universe out of pique or something... and she just says words to the effect of "Yeah, I knew. But I got rid of it. And besides, watching you scramble was fun, and it kept you interesting!"
Cue mayhem (Kyon-led, I think) and maybe a Boskone attack on the summit.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[KJ]

---

That'd make for an interesting capper to a Secrets Summit. Everything comes out; the espers, Mikuru's future humans, the Core Entities, and they're all waiting for Haruhi to snap and end the universe out of pique or something... and she just says words to the effect of "Yeah, I knew. But I got rid of it. And besides, watching you scramble was fun, and it kept you interesting!"
Cue mayhem (Kyon-led, I think) and maybe a Boskone attack on the summit.

---

Heh heh... what did you mean by "got rid of it"? What comes to mind is that she came to realize her power etc... then rewrote the universe so that she didn't have it. After all, what's the fun of playing with the cheat codes on? Which would lead to its own share of amusing mayhem too.
At any rate, if this does lead to Valle's idea on intel on the (proposed) bosko superweapon, I hope it requires confirmation or comes late or something; I still wanna do my happy fun infiltration mission of doom!

[M Fnord]

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Heh heh... what did you mean by "got rid of it"? What comes to mind is that she came to realize her power etc... then rewrote the universe so that she didn't have it. After all, what's the fun of playing with the cheat codes on?

---

Well... I was thinking that she realized that being the only person who could "cheat" wasn't any fun, so she rewrote the rules, removing her power and modifying it so it could be... distributed. In easily-packaged forms.
*dramatic chord*
But your idea works too. ---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Kokuten]

---

distributed. In easily-packaged forms.

---

Oh shit.
Haruhi did handwavium?
actually.. I support that. I want that written rightfrigginnow

Cause that WORKS.

You know.. I think that this whole OGJ problem could be resolved with one message, a little something like this..

---

From: Haruhi (taichou@sosdan.fen
To: nttp://fen.current-events.dixc
BCC: Recipients Undisclosed
Subject: Dream the impossible dream
Date Posted: May 22nd, 2013
Well, it looks like I screwed up.
Let's talk about it. I've rented one of the facilities rooms on The Island for May 25th - that should provide enough time for everyone to wrap up their current projects and get over there.
On the agenda is the following:
1) On the infallibility of Haruhi Suzumiya - This isn't what you think.
2) On intelligence operatives and intelligent operatives.
3) What we know
4) What we don't
5) What we're up against.

I know that there has been some problems caused by the leadership style of this office - I don't believe that they are insurmountable, but I admit they are serious.
This will be changing.
There are also some complaints about the information handling done by the SOS-dan and myself.
This will also be changing.
I look forward to having you all there, and I guarantee that each and every one of you will be surprised.

---

And during this summit meeting, Haruhi drops a box set of the anime, and a few boxes of manga on the table.. admits that yep, she knew what was up. Yep. she knew what she was..
someone comments on the 'was'.
Yup. Was. she fixed that. Where _did_ we think 'wavium came from anyway?

Basically the ideas that have been proposed in this thread, really.
I like it. Detente, followed by renewed effort - with renewed effectiveness. Followed by the intelligence efforts succeeding, revealing..

well, we haven't really decided that, have we?Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[robkelk]

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And during this summit meeting, Haruhi drops a box set of the anime, and a few boxes of manga on the table.. admits that yep, she knew what was up. Yep. she knew what she was..

---

This would merely be another bit of ammunition to remove Haruhi from command of OGJ, on the grounds that she's insane. After all, The Jason doesn't think that he's Son Goku, so biomodding into an anime character doesn't force you to believe you're that anime character. "Suzumiya-san", whoever she originally was, has obviously gone 'round the bend.
(Digression: Why, oh why, does everyone see some burning need to explain handwavium? If you start explaining it, then it isn't handwaving any more. C'mon, folks, this is one of the basic setting assumptions - if you go changing those, all you have left is a mess. Remember Voyager and Enterprise?)

-Rob Kelk
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[robkelk]

---

That'd make for an interesting capper to a Secrets Summit.

---

A.K.A. "Serenity Valley-con"...
(Actually, this would be about the right time for the next Con, considering SOS-con was in May 2012.)

-Rob Kelk
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012