The Laws of the Handwave

[Sirrocco]

I have noticed a fair number of folks breaking the local laws of physics recently, and I figured there ought to be a reference page to lay out clearly what people Can and Cannot Do, for what is reasonable and not reasonable. Primarily this is intended as a reference for character generation. The following Are True, and have been accepted as such for Quite Some Time. Grrr....
- Rule #1: You may not show the Handwavium a picture of your desired genre vehicle and have it build one for you. Not at all, not even a little, not under any circumstances. It don't work like that.
- Rule #2: expansion to Rule #1: the handwavium does not, in fact, build *anything*. It does not reshape *anything*. The way handwavium works is that you take an existing hardtech device, slap some handwavium on it, and the function of the device changes. If the item is broken, cracked, or flawed, those breaks *may* be fixed (though this tends to have a somewhat higher quirk cost.) There are some rare strains of the stuff that have interesting psuedochemical effects. Those can change chemical structure, but pretty much leave shape alone. Otherwise, what you get out is a goopier version of what you put in, with perhaps some interesting coloration. Short form - if you want a handwaved device - *any* handwaved device, then you have to *start with a device*.
- Rule #3: You cannot blow up handwavium for Great Justice. Handwavium cannot be caused to explode, and adding handwavium to an explosive thing won't do anything except reduce intensity. Handwavium is not fond of things going boom.
- Rule #4: Copilot of Rule #3: The handwavium does not like to be weaponized. It is not easy to weaponize. If you handwave something with the intent of making it a weapon, you will fail. Nothing that you build will turn out to be a weapon randomly. The only way to get a handwaved weapon is to take an existing handwavium device designed for peaceful purposes and use it in ways nature never intended.
- Rule #5: Force on force, handwavium against hardtech, the handwavium will win almost every time. There are exceptions, but they are few and far between, and will cause a great many people to suddenly become concerned. This includes things like piercing handwavium-reinforced hulls.
- Rule #6: Biomods: You get one, you get only one, and after you get it, you can't get rid of it, barring major reconstructive surgery - and sometimes not even then.
- Rule #7: Biomods always have at least some advantages. They also always have at least some disadvantages. From an objective standpoint, these things should be reasonably balanced. The character reaction, obviously, will vary dramatically depending on how cool the benefits are and how annoying the drawbacks from the character's perspective.
- Rule #8: Handwavium is like Cat. It does not go where you tell it to go. It goes where it wants to go. If you are trying to get A Cool Thing, then you will get A Cool Thing. If you are trying to get A Specific Cool Thing? You will get A Cool Thing. There are caveats to this. It is possible to influence the handwavium, to give it a direction, by dint of lots and lots of care and effort. Symbolic power also helps, in large quantities. Read "Surfing with the Alien" for a good example of "Lots of care and effort." Also, the more "normal" your need, the easier it is to get the handwavium to give you something that will serve. Just about anyone can get a functional speed drive. Each of them will have their own quirks and strangenesses, but with a bit of time and effort, some sort of an appropriate egine structure, and handwavium in appropriate types and quantities, anyone can get one. If you need an AI, then slapping some handwavium into a computer will often get you one, given time. It won't give you any control over what the personality of the AI *is*, mind. If it's some Cool Thing that no one else has, though, like a tractor beam - well, if you've got one, its because you lucked into it by mistake. This applies to biomods as well, except that there is no such thing as a generic biomod. Biomods are *always* a crapshoot.
Rule #9: Biomods are physical alterations. If you can't explain it with ordinary physics, you can't do it with a biomod. These are strange physical alterations, not superpowers (not that there aren't folks *trying*, mind.)
Rule #10: Handwavium conserves mass. It also conserves energy. There's some strange sort of energy (perhaps associated with the gravitic control?) out there that some handwavium can tap as power generation, but we aren't technically breaking the laws of thermodynamics.
Rule #11: If you have some handwavium, you can turn it into more handwavium, but you have to feed it something. The something will vary depending on the handwavium in question. It does not grow catastrophically either - the fastest it grows should be about doubling in size every day (for a benchmark) and that's if you feed it a whole lot and it's one of the fast versions.
Rule #12: The handwavium will have quirks, and the quirks will not be yours to declare. Everything handwvium has quirks. If you handwave your toaster, it will develop quirks. If you handwave you sister, she will develop quirks. If you handwave your car, you *know* it will develop quirks. The more Cool Stuff you have, and the Cooler the Stuff is, the more Quirk it will have. Quirks are by their nature bizarre and often annoying. If an effect is a net positive, then it's not a quirk, it's a feature. If an effect is just a little oddity, then it's technically a quirk, but it's really not worth much at all in terms of balancing out Cool Stuff.
Rule #13: Handwaved things get handwaved seperately. Painting your vehicle is great - it'll give it structural integrity and a functional atmospheric seal. It will turn it into a spaceframe, and generally the only quirks will be visual. That is *all* it will do. If you want handwaved items inside, apply the goop yourself. If you want a handwaved engine, then handwave it. Particularly Strong handwavium fumes over a period of time *may* be enough to biomod someone, but that's about it, and that only because the lungs are so efficient at absorbing the stuff.
Rule #14: The Bigger they Are, the Slower they Crawl. Small ships are speedy. Large ships are not. Being faster than other ships of your weight class is a Cool Thing, and should be treated as such (including quirks).
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This is not a thread for discussing particulars of who is and is not within the laws. That goes on elsewhere. This is a thread for discussing what the laws *are*, and is intended as a reference. If you disagree with any of the things I have posted above, then feel free to argue the point, but this is my best interpretation. Also, I know that this is not nearly all of the rules. Please do chime in with the ones I'm missing that we have agreed on, and feel free to propose additional rules for discussion. Do distinguish between them, though.

[M Fnord]

Of the "laws" that you've listed....
Numbers 1, 3 and 4 are key precepts to the setting, and as such I ain't seen anybody openly breaking them & getting away with it.
Numbers 13 & 14 are extrapolations on the concept and so far, nobody's broken them.
Number 2 is not something that was defined by Fenspace author concensus, ditto numbers 5, 8 and 13.
Numbers 6, 7 & 9 apply to biomods (and are poorly grouped, btw) and again, so far nobody's broken these.
Number 12... okay. I'm going to be blunt, direct and nasty here: your constant harping on "quirks" is *really* starting to annoy me. This is *not* a tabletop game; we do not have to play with minmaxing in order to get what we want out of our concepts. There is no great Cosmic Karma Goalkeeper keeping track of everything we put into the handwavium. We do not play with "balance" any more than, say, Bob plays with "balance" when he's writing a Step. The goal is not to create a perfect neutral-point character but instead to create something within the base guidelines of the setting and is dramatically appropriate. With only *one* exception so far, everybody who's contributed has managed to follow this guideline.
Insisting that quirks be these openly obvious, major disadvantages - with an emphasis on slapstick humor - doesn't accomplish anything except shoving the world in directions that I don't think we want it to go.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Sirrocco]

I admit to poor grouping.
Rule #2 was something I put out there explicitly on Page 3 of the "plotbunny for sale" thread, and had not seen any argument on. I went into more detail here, but I thought it was merely making explicit what had previously been implied. I also had not seen anyone *breaking* the expanded version of this rule until relatively recently.
Rule #5 came partially out of a discussion on weaponizing space, and, specifically, on how if it were easy to do so, the place would look rather different than we'd like. I honestly don't remember where it was. I'll have to track it down. Specifically, that was the bit about "the difficulty of penetrating handwavium-reinforced hulls" or something like that. Beyond that, well, it's becase it's true. Force-on-force is going to be pretty much either a case of two things pushing at one another or a case of something trying to break through something else. In terms of pushing, we've done some work defining what sorts of energy output you can expect from handwavium of various sorts, and it is *far* above what hardtech can put out.
Rule #8 was from common usage. Given the number of initial characters who had been written up getting totally random results, and quirks that they *totally* would not have chosen for themselves, I didnt' think it made sense for incoming characters with relatively little understanding of the stuff to come in and, with approximately equivalent amounts of effort, suddenly get exactly what they were looking for.
Rule #13? Partially common usage, again. Every one of the initial stories that talked about it talked about handwaving specific parts individually. Partially, it seemed common sense - though this is, admittedly, subjective. Assuming even a semi-plausible attempt at science (which *was* in the base rules) a small amount of aerosol handwavium settling on a random device didn't seem like enough to violently change the entirety of its inner workings unless you were going full-on high-speed reconstructive nanomachines
As for rule #12, it had been my understanding that "the world we live in his held together with duct tape" *was* one of the basic design parameters. I'm not asking people to play minmaxing. I am also not insisting that they be openly obvious, major disadvantages. I certainly do not insist that it be slapstick. The issue is that there is a natural tendency towards "coolness creep". People who come in late will tend to want to get more stuff than anyone and put less effort into it. If you don't have some sort of balance criteria, then the world will quickly fall apart under the weight of new entrants pushing at the edges. Likewise, one of the central precepts of this universe is that the vast majority of the mundane world isn't using the stuff because it's dangerous and unpredictable. Another is that, in essence, Handwavium Just Wins. The only way, to my mind, to justify having both of these things be correct is if people are consistently having at least a few issues to deal with with their gear - and that the issues become more significant as the things they're able to do with them become more significant.
Beyond that, it is my position that stories that are written about characters who have weaknesses as well as strengths, and technology that has difficulties to go with its blessings, are *better stories*. If you allow people to write portions of the world with no flaws in them, then my understanding of human nature strongly suggests that those portions will come to dominate it over time.
Regardless, you're the moderator. If you wish to impose your will, I will not stop you. I would ask that you explicitly state what the replacement for the Rules are - particularly Rule #12. I will also say that if you do *not* see a need for balance, then my own role is substantially diminished.

[robkelk]

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Rule #2 was something I put out there explicitly on Page 3 of the "plotbunny for sale" thread, and had not seen any argument on.

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Just because nobody says anything doesn't necessarily mean everyone agrees with you. It doesn't mean that they don't agree with you, either. (I learned that one the hard way a few years ago, while serving on the Board of Directors of a non-profit organization.)
Unless you specifically ask, you can't know whether your opinions are shared by others.

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Rule #5 came partially out of a discussion on weaponizing space, and, specifically, on how if it were easy to do so, the place would look rather different than we'd like. I honestly don't remember where it was.

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Probably out of our week-long bunfight, and I went along with you on it... but I'm not sure that I should have. 'Wavium can't be a trump defence, not if your Rule 13 holds.
Also, it ruins the setting. If it becomes common knowledge that 'wavium-reinforced hulls can't be pierced by anything short of a nuke, then the Boskonians will use nothing but 'wavium-reinforced hulls (edit) and nukes (/edit), and interplanetary travel becomes extremely dangerous. That's the exact opposite of what we're trying to evoke here.

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As for rule #12, it had been my understanding that "the world we live in his held together with duct tape" *was* one of the basic design parameters.

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"Held together with duct tape" does not necessarily imply "quirked".

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I am also not insisting that they be openly obvious, major disadvantages. I certainly do not insist that it be slapstick.

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I remember that you and I had a week-long bunfight where you insisted that I had to write slapstick, and that my supporting characters had to have "openly obvious, major disadvantages". You even criticized a character that still hasn't appeared in the story because you didn't see any openly obvious disadvantages or slapstick behaviour in said as-yet-undepicted character.

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If you don't have some sort of balance criteria, then the world will quickly fall apart under the weight of new entrants pushing at the edges.

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We do have balance criteria: "author's discretion". If we can't trust each other to not screw over the setting or each others' characters, we may as well wind this experiment up right now.

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Another (precept of this universe) is that, in essence, Handwavium Just Wins.

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We haven't agreed to that. Agreeing to that will cause major breakage to the setting, in my opinion - I mentioned one example in my discussion of your Rule 5, above.

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I will also say that if you do *not* see a need for balance, then my own role is substantially diminished.

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What's wrong with being one of the writers, with the same priveledges and responsibilities that all of the writers have? Why should anyone have, or expect to have, a larger role than that?
To mangle your own words, if we allow someone to have more control over the setting than everyone else has, then my understanding of human nature strongly suggests that that person will come to dominate it over time.

-Rob Kelk
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[M Fnord]

Quick jump on the rest of the stuff...
#2: I think it probably got lost in the threadchurn. Page 3 on the original plotbunny thread was a *long* time ago discussion-wise.
#5: It was discussed, but it's never been put into practice (when your waved-up Impala can outrun an F-22, you never have to get empirical evidence). I would hesitate to call that a Rule just because we don't really *know* that.
#8 & 13: Common custom, sure. Still, they need some more open discussion before we can go so far as to hammer them into stone.
That said, onto the meat of the issue.

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The issue is that there is a natural tendency towards "coolness creep". People who come in late will tend to want to get more stuff than anyone and put less effort into it. If you don't have some sort of balance criteria, then the world will quickly fall apart under the weight of new entrants pushing at the edges.

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But this hasn't happened yet. I've been under the impression that, being reasonable adults, we've accepted the basic guidelines and are doing a good job of self-policing. There has been nothing - nothing - too over the top that's been presented and accepted.

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Likewise, one of the central precepts of this universe is that the vast majority of the mundane world isn't using the stuff because it's dangerous and unpredictable.

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Well, no.
Everybody's forgotten this - hell, I've forgotten it most of the time - but the central precept isn't that the Mundanes aren't using handwavium at all because it's dangerous and scary, they're not using handwavium for the purposes the fen are using it for because, frankly, they can think of better shit to do with handwavium than colonize space while pretending to be Klingons and space heroes and all that. They're building Utopia on their terms: nice, peaceful, prosperous and maybe a bit dull, while the fen are building Utopia on their terms: free, wooly, full of excitement, adventure and really wild things.
We've drifted away from that some as the stories and the backstories have built up - and that's understandable, it's early in the overall timeline, etc. - but that's the core divide between Fan and Mundane, not a question of use, but a question of purpose.
But we're getting off track.

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Beyond that, it is my position that stories that are written about characters who have weaknesses as well as strengths, and technology that has difficulties to go with its blessings, are *better stories*. If you allow people to write portions of the world with no flaws in them, then my understanding of human nature strongly suggests that those portions will come to dominate it over time.

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They may be better stories, but the more you wield the flawhammer in order to jam in flaws where you percieve a lack, the more likely it is all you're going to get are characters that are nothing *but* weaknesses, and technology that's nothing *but* difficulties, if only to avoid constant criticism.
It's the mirror image of coolness creep; call it "wangst creep" for lack of a more encompassing term. If you hammer on the need for flaws and more flaws in order to make the characters more "realistic" then all we end up with is a gang of competent people and utter basasses who do nothing but sit around and whine about their problems. (Insert unkind remarks about BSG or any number of fanfics here.)
You're worried about coolness creep, and that's all well and good. I'm worried about your efforts to combat coolness creep creating wangst creep. Keep that in mind.

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Regardless, you're the moderator. If you wish to impose your will, I will not stop you. I would ask that you explicitly state what the replacement for the Rules are - particularly Rule #12. I will also say that if you do *not* see a need for balance, then my own role is substantially diminished.

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*sigh*
Yes, I am the moderator, if only because nobody else wanted the job or was willing to nominate another candidate. Regardless, I will not impose my will. Like any good communist, I impose the People's Will. So if you can rally enough support to your side, I will impose it despite my misgivings.
So *debate.* All of you. If this little roundabout ends up being just me and Sirroco I will be *extremely* pissed off.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Sirrocco]

Rob:
- at the time I did the "Rule 2" mention, "someone says it and no one argues" pretty much *was* the way we were building the universe, at least as I could see it. Regardless, if anyone wants to revisit that question, now would be the time.
- Actually, the bunfight between you and I was specifically because I was working under the idea that handwaved hulls were Darn Hard To Crack. I'm not going to say with any degree of certainty how accurately that portrays the consensus that was reached, but whatever it was happened before our little discussion. Also, it's "wavium-reinforced hulls (which pretty much everyone is using *anyway*) and nukes (if they can get them) and weapons improvised out of initially non-weapon things." I believe one of our discussions came up with the consensus that an awful lot of raider combat would be in the form of boarding parties and hull-cutters.
- If I'm coming across as requiring slapstick, I'll admit that I'm doing it wrong. I'd ask for advice on how to do it properly, except that this discussion thread may well obsolete the whole process pretty quickly. If we come back with anything resembling Rule 12 out the other end, I *will* ask for advice. It is at least the case that the flaws you eventually came up with work just fine to my eyes.
Beyond that, I would like to thank Mr. Fnord for *not* wielding his fiat. I will also admit openly that both varieties of creep do exist and both are bad. I would further join him in calling for *other* people to do the discussing. Whatever the end result rules are, we really ought to *have* some, and it shouldn't be just him and me writing them. I personally will be trying to not look at this thread for at least a few days, in order to best control any urges I may have to post on it.

[Valles]

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- Rule #5: Force on force, handwavium against hardtech, the handwavium will win almost every time. There are exceptions, but they are few and far between, and will cause a great many people to suddenly become concerned. This includes things like piercing handwavium-reinforced hulls.

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Caveat: Assuming that the attacking bit of hardtech and resisting bit of wavetech are of relatively equal scales. Or vice versa. A Yugo or Trabant is not going to suddenly become proof against a 16" gun or an Exocet.
Interestingly, handwaving also makes it easier to do things like cool a umpty-megawatt laser, or cram a safe nuclear reactor into a small volume. Imagine that. *innocent, innocent*
In my mind, #s 1, 3, and 4 would all actually fall under 8.
While I agree with #s 2 10, 11, and 13, I don't think that they were actually laid out and discussed, as such.
#12...
...aahh.... yeah.
Drama >= Stat Points.
Stat Points >= 'Mine is Cooler'.
I'd consider Drogn's entry a good example of this. I had some serious doubts about the initial proposal he posted.
But.
He wrote it up and made it work.
That last is the important part.

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Everybody's forgotten this - hell, I've forgotten it most of the time - but the central precept isn't that the Mundanes aren't using handwavium at all because it's dangerous and scary, they're not using handwavium for the purposes the fen are using it for because, frankly, they can think of better shit to do with handwavium than colonize space while pretending to be Klingons and space heroes and all that. They're building Utopia on their terms: nice, peaceful, prosperous and maybe a bit dull, while the fen are building Utopia on their terms: free, wooly, full of excitement, adventure and really wild things.

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Certainly I never got that memo.
That said... OMFG YES.
Ja, -n

===============================================
"Puripuri puripuri... Bang!"

[KJ]

All right, the biggie first. Rule 12... well, as a guideline sure. It's something that everyone has been making an effort to follow once they understood the gist of it. But... trying to balance between quirks and Cool Stuff is tricky. How do people other than the author define where the balance point is? How do you know how much a quirk is going to affect their life? Also, with some exceptions, most of us are tending towards a much more moderate level of CS; the Prof is an easily notable example, but going along with that... well, do I need to explain?
Basicially it's just a matter of how it's used, it sorta seems. Are they guidelines, or things to beat people over the head with?
Rule 5, I think I could be called at least partially responsible for coming into being. I dunno, that was my take on it at least, and partially I was proposing a general principle of the Reavers acknowledging the difficulties of cracking 'wavium hulls at range and instead having to close with larger (therefore slower) craft and make holes at pointblank range before boarding. But I was just proposing the thing, y'know?
The rest I don't know that I have problems with really, though maybe more discussion in general would be good. Also, again, questions of how they're all going to be used.

[M Fnord]

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Certainly I never got that memo.

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It's in the initial plotbunny, and it got brought up a couple times in the plotbunny thread (somewhere around pages 2-6, I think) but got lost in the churn of everybody being all excited.

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That said... OMFG YES.

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I'm so glad it meets with your approval. But further discussion we should move out of the Rules thread, I think.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Feinan]

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- Rule #2: expansion to Rule #1: the handwavium does not, in fact, build *anything*. It does not reshape *anything*. The way handwavium works is that you take an existing hardtech device, slap some handwavium on it, and the function of the device changes. If the item is broken, cracked, or flawed, those breaks *may* be fixed (though this tends to have a somewhat higher quirk cost.) There are some rare strains of the stuff that have interesting psuedochemical effects. Those can change chemical structure, but pretty much leave shape alone. Otherwise, what you get out is a goopier version of what you put in, with perhaps some interesting coloration. Short form - if you want a handwaved device - *any* handwaved device, then you have to *start with a device*.

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Ok, I'd like to address this rule to start with. I agree that handwavium doesn't just create out of nothing. You do have to start with SOMEthing. However, shaping and altering is definitely in the cards. That's what a biomod IS, after all - people getting scales, tails, fur, shapechanging....that's all shaping/altering right there. Extremely drastic alterations would need justifications in my opinion, but it can be done. For the biomod I did, which was fairly extreme, I offered the idea that the handwavium actually consumed/used some of my extra mass to power the change - something I didn't see as unreasonable.
You still can't get it to turn a pile of lumber into the Enterprise, but if you build a ship, I could see it making alterations - smoothing lines, changing colors (with all the other stuff out there, colors/animations/illusions are simple). For a device, I think you'd have to build something that would at least approximate what you're trying for - it might not work for what you want, as is, but it could give the handwavium a template and material from which to build a working structure. The stuff has a MUCH bigger database for science/engineering than we do. I'd guess that as long as it can figure out what you're TRYING to do, it'll give it a shot.
In my mind, as long as you have a template/item for the handwavium to work from, it can do a lot with just that. The more details you can fill in ahead of time, the easier it is, I'd say, but it can do a lot as long as it has matter to work with. Opinions?

[robkelk]

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Also, it's "wavium-reinforced hulls (which pretty much everyone is using *anyway*) and nukes (if they can get them) and weapons improvised out of initially non-weapon things."

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My comment about nukes was connected to Boskonians. (I can't see any law-abiding fan other than Noah being crazy enough to want a supply of nukes. The Professor may also be crazy, but not that way.) Boskonians aren't big on obeying laws - it's part of the definition - so they're going to grab some fissionables from somewhere if that's what it takes to win. (That "somewhere" is probably the 'Danes, which would add to 'Dane paranoia against Fen. We don't seem to have 'Dane vs. Fen hatred in the setting yet, and I'd rather not have a channel for someone to introduce it.) If "getting nukes" isn't what it takes to win, then they won't see any need to get nukes, so they won't bother, and space travel becomes slightly safer by default.

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I believe one of our discussions came up with the consensus that an awful lot of raider combat would be in the form of boarding parties and hull-cutters.

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Which is wonderful - it evokes Age of Sail ship-to-ship combat, rather than the "WWII plane-to-plane dogfight" style of combat that almost everybody who commented seems to dislike. Being a minor Aubrey-and-Maturin-stories fan, I think this is a wonderful way to go. However, being a minor Aubrey-and-Maturin-stories fan, I think we still need some way to do effective broadsides before boarding. "Weapons improvised out of initially non-weapon things" aren't going to crack a 'wavium hull if 'wavium is a perfect defence, which means no broadsides. This limits story possibilities for no apparent reason other than "somebody doesn't appear to like Age of Sail stories".
("Boarding parties and hull-cutters" also implies StarCrash-style "boarding torpedoes", but you have to take the bad with the good...)

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If I'm coming across as requiring slapstick, I'll admit that I'm doing it wrong. I'd ask for advice on how to do it properly, except that this discussion thread may well obsolete the whole process pretty quickly.

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The best advice I can give to anybody who critiques someone else's stories (in FenSpace or elsewhere) is to remember they're talking to another person, with preferences that probably don't match the critiquer's. If the critiquer comes down heavy-handed at the start and tells the writer "do it this way" instead of asking the writer "why did you do it that way?", the writer is going to ask himself "who died and made him Haruhi?", with all the negative connotations that the question usually implies. If a critiquer gets a reputation for being too heavy-handed, then people will start ignoring him out-of-hand.

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It is at least the case that the flaws you eventually came up with work just fine to my eyes.

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Actually, they had the flaws to begin with - they just didn't apply to the first vignette I wrote. "Show, don't tell", and there simply wasn't room to show everything at the very beginning. (I still haven't shown all of the characters' flaws... One that should be obvious is a second-order collalary of Rule 4: The AIs are all pacifists; Sora's just more blatant about it than the others. Even Yoriko, the best shot of the bunch, only shoots targets and drones unless she has no other choice. And now that I've mentioned that here, I should go update their character writeups. Again.)

So... generalities, instead of specifics. I believe I've already made clear that I'm against Rule 5, since I believe it's a setting-breaker.
I'm not really happy with Rule 2 - the idea of 'wavium making something ripple and move a la a morphing T-1000 while the 'wavium does its thing is Just Too Cool A Visual to throw away, in my opinion - but I can see the setting justification for it.
Rule 4, as mentioned above, has a second-order effect of no armies of 'wavium-powered killbots. This is a Good Thing, in my humble opinion.
Rule 6, about biomods, currently finishes "and you can't get rid of it, barring major reconstructive surgery - and sometimes not even then." I strongly suggest deleting "- and sometimes not even then"; it's amazing the lengths some people will go to in order to get rid of a body modification they don't want any more, and we shouldn't prohibit that. (The only exception I can see to this is if the biomod included regenerative abilities, which so far haven't been shown anywhere in the setting.)
Rule 8, as written, has already been broken at least three times - once in the story about slavers grabbing people and reliably biomodding them into catgirls, once with a set of four pre-programmed AI robots (Edit: Fair disclosure to newcomers - this was my plot point), and once with a desired gender-change. Only one of those three cases was contested, if I recall correctly, and after discussion it was allowed to stand.
Rule 10, as written, doesn't seem to apply to solid-state 'wavium as it has been depicted since Day One.
Rule 12 - If the writer doesn't get to declare his own characters' 'wavium quirks, who does?
Rule 14's okay by me - it fits the "Age of Sail in Space" motif that "boarding parties and hull-cutters" evokes. As long as there is a way to get around it in dire emergencies (and those emergencies are limited to one per writer), that is...
Overall, I'd suggest throwing away the idea of balancing quirks. That idea was okay when there was a possibility of turning this into an RPG, but it just gets in the way of storytelling. Perhaps, instead, we could have this:
- Rule X: Don't create ubermenschen - that's boring, and nobody wants to read a boring story. Don't load your characters up with crippling flaws, either - that's also boring. Strive for a balance: characters with some Nifty Abilities and some Nifty Disabilities are far more interesting than the "one-trick ponies" are.
This will require re-writing almost all of the other rules, though, so it's a big change.

-Rob Kelk
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[M Fnord]

Just on the spur of the moment, I'd like to propose another rule.
Rule #0: This is a collaborative writing project, which means there's a whole bunch of people adding their ideas to the pot. Take that into account when creating a new addition. Like the man said, "Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean."
..generic, I know, but something worth considering as a seed if nothing else.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Morganite]

[Fair warning note: I still have a lot of pages of stuff to read. ^_^;;; ]
#2 kind of makes me nervous, simply because I actually came up with something that seemed amusing to write, and a lot of what my character does involves a sort of "memory plastic". Reshaping is it's entire purpose for existing. (Partly inspired by thinking "Hey, wouldn't it be neat to have a spacesuit that wasn't like any others I've read anyone using", partly inspired by the desire to land a car in the ocean, and partly due to having once read "The Mind Pool".)
#3's "reduce intensity" part could have amusing tactical implications... if you can think of a way to apply it to missiles while they are being launched at you.
Still, the thing that's always bothered me about this part is how you decide what's considered a weapon. I've been contemplating something that would be a mere (though effective) nuisance delaying action against an enemy in space... and be certain death for any regular terrestrial aircraft struck with it. In neither case does it actually do any damge itself. (Unless you have a weakness to rap or gospel music.) So is it considered a weapon or not? Or only in one case? Just how much is this stuff supposed to be able to know about the consequences of not-necessarily-dangerous actions? What the hell is going on?

---

Everybody's forgotten this - hell, I've forgotten it most of the time - but the central precept isn't that the Mundanes aren't using handwavium at all because it's dangerous and scary, they're not using handwavium for the purposes the fen are using it for because, frankly, they can think of better shit to do with handwavium than colonize space while pretending to be Klingons and space heroes and all that. They're building Utopia on their terms: nice, peaceful, prosperous and maybe a bit dull, while the fen are building Utopia on their terms: free, wooly, full of excitement, adventure and really wild things.

---

This seems to be hard to reconcile with all the stuff that makes it sound like it's considered actively dangerous in most nations. I suppose it might just be being used for certain applications, but the question is which and how much? (If there's major industrial penetration, I'll have to come up with something entirely different for the story I'm working on. ^_^;;; )
On a side note...

---

"who died and made him Haruhi?"

---

I offiically declare this one of the best lines ever.
On another side note, what defines "solid state wavium"? I've seen the term used a few times"I have no interest in ordinary humans. If there are any aliens, time travelers, or espers here, come sleep with me."
---From "The Ecchi of Haruhi Suzumiya"
-----(Not really)

[Anpwhotep]

Whenever you start talking about the "Laws" of the Handwave, you need to remember the most important law of Drama:
If the rules interfere with Drama, throw them out!
I'm seeing a LOT of rules interfering with Drama, on several threads here, where people post what they think is a reasonably entertaining story, and the first response from the person who objects is not "Why did you do it that way? Did you think of doing it like instead?", but, rather, is "You moron! Don't you know you're violating Laws X, Y, and Z of the Handwave!"
Quite frankly, the second response would incline me to put the person posting it on my "better off ignored" list, while the first response would incline me to enter into a discussion of the response.
There have been far too many bunfights (as I've seen them termed) because of the excessive application of the "You moron!" response to stories that may, perhaps, be in need of tweaking, but may just be playing on something that the responder either doesn't understand or doesn't recognize.
Then again, in my opinion, the "You moron!" response is NEVER appropriate in what is supposed to be a friendly forum.--
Homepage: http://www.macmanusnet.net
Sailor Moon Fanfiction: http://crystal.macmanusnet.net
--
Homepage: http://www.macmanusnet.net

Sailor Moon Fanfiction: http://crystal.macmanusnet.net

[drakensis]

These are basically reorganisations of what has already been said with a few of my own suggestions rolled in:
Rule #0: This is a collaborative writing project, which means there's a whole bunch of people adding their ideas to the pot.
a) Offering constructive criticism (why don't you do this?) is good. Saying 'you can't do that' is not constructive.
b) Handwavium is fuelled by imagination*. So are stories.
* well, it could be!
Rule #1: Handwavium is like Cat. It does not go where you tell it to go. It goes where it wants to go. If you are trying to get A Cool Thing, then you will get A Cool Thing. If you are trying to get A Specific Cool Thing? You will get A Cool Thing. With that said, there are some general limits to it's effects:
a) You may not show the Handwavium a picture of your desired genre vehicle and have it build one for you. Not at all, not even a little, not under any circumstances.
b) The handwavium does not, in fact, build anything. It does not reshape anything except in cosmetic and often quirky ways. Painting your car with handwavium may give you a spaceframe, but working handwavium into the engine gives you a space drive.
c) The handwavium will probably have quirks. The more Cool Stuff you have, and the Cooler the Stuff is, the more quirky it will be. Some Handwavium is less quirky than other Handwavium but it's almost maliciously unpredictable.
d) You cannot blow up handwavium for Great Justice. Handwavium cannot be caused to explode, and adding handwavium to an explosive thing won't do anything except reduce intensity. Handwavium is not fond of things going boom. In fact, if you handwave something with the intent of making it a weapon, you will fail. Nothing that you build will turn out to be a weapon randomly. The only way to get a handwaved weapon is to take an existing handwavium device designed for peaceful purposes and use it in ways nature never intended.
Rule #2: You can get one Biomod, you get only one, and after you get it, you can't get rid of it, barring major reconstructive surgery - and sometimes not even then.
a) Biomods are physical alterations and like other Handwavium changes, don't change appearance much unless a prothesis was used. They are not superpowers (not that there aren't folks trying, mind) but tend to make what you have work better, but sometimes quirkily.
b) Particularly strong handwavium fumes over a period of time may be enough to biomod someone, but that's about it, and that only because the lungs are so efficient at absorbing the stuff.
Rule #3: If you have some handwavium, you can turn it into more handwavium, but you have to feed it something. The fastest it grows should be about doubling in size every day, but if you want more in a hurry then many Fen will share. What you feed your Handwavium may have effects on it's appearance and upon quirks resulting from use. See 1c, above.
Rule #4: Space combat is more like napoleanic warfare than modern warfare - you might shoot things at each other but the decisive role usually involves getting up close and personal. This is because:
a) Handwavium hulls are relatively resistant to hard tech weapons. Just about any handwavium hull will be bulletproof and it's not difficult to make them proof against anti-tank weapons (although not everyone bothers to).
b) See 1d, above.
c) Forcetubes between spacecraft are easy to make (since they're the main means of getting in and out of space stations that lack internal docking) and are easily adapted for boarding actions.
d) Bigger ships tend to be slower than smaller craft, but smaller craft, which control the engagement ranges, have less ability to inflict hurt. But they can 'land' boarders relatively easily.
D for Drakensis
You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.
D for Drakensis

You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.

[Rieverre]

And anyway, it's okay if they're just Puuchus ...
... erm ...
... yeah, I like that ruleset. Especially #0.b

---

On another side note, what defines "solid state wavium"? I've seen the term used a few times

---

If it isn't goop or guacamole, it's a Solid. Yes, you can grow them, but it takes a lot more time and anything that isn't one of the early Black Boxes that popped up in a few places over the globe at roughly the same time goop was discovered is going to be roughly crystalline in composition. Again, function differs from one piece to another, though generally speaking a fair sized Cube or Sphere usually does decently well as a powerplant.
-Griever
When tact is required, use brute force. When force is required, use greater force.
When the greatest force is required, use your head. Surprise is everything. - The Book of Cataclysm

[robkelk]

If I may offer a few suggestions to Drakensis' suggested rule set...

---

Rule #1: Handwavium is like Cat. It does not go where you tell it to go. It goes where it wants to go. If you are trying to get A Cool Thing, then you will get A Cool Thing. If you are trying to get A Specific Cool Thing? You will get A Cool Thing.

---

Unless you work very, very hard at getting something specific, and even then it won't be exactly what you wanted.

---

a) You may not show the Handwavium a picture of your desired genre vehicle and have it build one for you. Not at all, not even a little, not under any circumstances.

---

Except when "Not at all, not even a little, not under any circumstances" conflicts with Rule #0b - but you have to work for it.
(In my humble opinion, the phrases "not at all" and "not under any circumstances" should not be applied to handwavium. Most of us seem to be of the opinion that "you can't do that" is not welcome here...)

---

d) ... The only way to get a handwaved weapon is to take an existing handwavium device designed for peaceful purposes and use it in ways nature never intended.

---

And even then it'll only work once; once the handwavium realizes it's been used as a weapon, it'll stop acting that way.
(Yes, "realizes". If 'wavium isn't intelligent, then most of the rules make no sense at all. Intelligence on 'wavium's part is a necessary implication of Sirroco's rules.)

Oh, and I like your Rule #4. Your #4a makes Katz' coilguns useful again...

-Rob Kelk
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Foxboy]

I AM going to explain the "Identical Biomod" thing in a hopefully acceptable manner. Eventually...
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[Bob Schroeck]

Argh.
Drakensis' 1b nukes the Grover's Corners right out of the sky.
-- Bob
---------
...The President is on the line
As ninety-nine crab rangoons go by...

[Rieverre]

---

Drakensis' 1b nukes the Grover's Corners right out of the sky.

---

Why? Remember to filter through 0b. In general, this means as much as 'if you write it, and it doesn't Fail, they/we will not bitch'.
Just make a semi-explanation for whatever it is you think contradicts 1b in the narrative, we'll tag a Do Not Investigate This Too Closely badge onto the whole thing, and you're good to go.
It's got a sort of Ren-fair charm and retro feel to it. You can get away with a lot if you have Ren-fair charm and retro feel.
-Griever
When tact is required, use brute force. When force is required, use greater force.
When the greatest force is required, use your head. Surprise is everything. - The Book of Cataclysm

[drakensis]

---

Drakensis' 1b nukes the Grover's Corners right out of the sky

---

If you mean the sphere then that ain't necessarily so. It can't be Handwavium + Nothing, but it could be Handwavium + Intricately Folded Clingfilm or something.
If you mean something else, tell us about it, I'm sure a way round can be found.
And these are just suggestions for 'rules', or as Mustrum Ridcully would put it: "more of a guideline".D for Drakensis
You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.
D for Drakensis

You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.

[drakensis]

---

Unless you work very, very hard at getting something specific, and even then it won't be exactly what you wanted.

---

A good point. How about this:
Rule #1: Handwavium is like Cat. It does not go where you tell it to go. It goes where it wants to go. If you are trying to get A Cool Thing, then you will get A Cool Thing. If you are trying to get A Specific Cool Thing? You will get A Cool Thing which may or may not be what you want but might be what you really need.

---

Except when "Not at all, not even a little, not under any circumstances" conflicts with Rule #0b - but you have to work for it.

---

You're right, please forget that sentence of the rule. It doesn't need to be underlined like that.

---

Oh, and I like your Rule #4. Your #4a makes Katz' coilguns useful again...

---

A useful byproduct of justifying why Mr Morden was worried about getting shot down in the Jaime Retief - she ain't proof against military hardware. Destrier, OTOH, is very significantly tougher...

---

And even then it'll only work once; once the handwavium realizes it's been used as a weapon, it'll stop acting that way.

---

I'm not convinced of this. There's evidently an intelligence at work, but making every weapon a one-shot affair might be a tricky prospect.
My own thinking on the matter (going on the basis that this is Haruhi's whim at work) is that Haruhi disapproves of weapontech because breaking things is less interesting than building things. So handwavium is more concerned with increasing the net potential interest of anything and is skewed against things that destroy (because broken things are boring).
But if you can think of a way around this, then it's a fair cop. You've beaten the system and Handwavium is not going to change the rules on you. Because beating the system is cool and interesting enough to overrule the previous guideline. Of course, that doesn't mean that your trick will work for someone else (hence, coilguns are a Katz speciality, he has (or is) the 'patent' and no one else can duplicate it).
What does everyone else think?D for Drakensis
You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.
D for Drakensis

You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.

[robkelk]

---

My own thinking on the matter (going on the basis that this is Haruhi's whim at work) is that Haruhi disapproves of weapontech because breaking things is less interesting than building things. So handwavium is more concerned with increasing the net potential interest of anything and is skewed against things that destroy (because broken things are boring).
But if you can think of a way around this, then it's a fair cop. You've beaten the system and Handwavium is not going to change the rules on you. Because beating the system is cool and interesting enough to overrule the previous guideline. Of course, that doesn't mean that your trick will work for someone else (hence, coilguns are a Katz speciality, he has (or is) the 'patent' and no one else can duplicate it).

---

Sounds good to me. From a character point of view, it means there won't be too many 'wavetech weapons running around out there, and they'll be severely limited in effect on the setting. From a writer point of view, it encourages creativity and imagination, which ties back into Rule #0b.

-Rob Kelk
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Feinan]

---

1b) The handwavium does not, in fact, build anything. It does not reshape anything except in cosmetic and often quirky ways. Painting your car with handwavium may give you a spaceframe, but working handwavium into the engine gives you a space drive.

---

Drakensis? Instead of saying that the handwavium does not build anything....could we say it doesn't build anything from scratch? It might just be pickiness on my part, but I think if it's turning an engine into a space drive, it's DEFINITELY building SOMEthing. And I think people are pushing too much for only minor reshaping in trying to avoid the whole 'can't show a picture to get your spaceship' bit. Yes, you need a good template to start with...but once you have the template, my preference is for a bit more leeway in the alteration department.
Case in point - biomods. Not surprising, since it's what I've been concentrating on. Just the variety of things we've seen in the stories so far - photovoltaic ivy from combining separate items, shapechanging, a Jusenkyo-type curse...all of those are fairly potent versions of alteration.
I DO agree with 1a. I just think people are letting 1a influence other things too much. I'd say the minimum - you have to have a template. For a biomod, the template is your body, or whatever you're combining; for a spacedrive, it might be an engine, or maybe a sail with wire woven into it and hooked up to a battery for an energy sail. Use of symbols, of extra materials - all of those are ways of making the handwavium do more than it might with the template alone. For a biomod, this might include dreams, various items/influences from the environment, and so on. But once the handwavium is turned loose on something...well, not all bets are off, but it's definitely got more free reign than just cosmetic alterations. Or we'd not see a lot of the more interesting quirks/items that have been shown. Am I making sense at all in what I'm trying to say?
As you might guess, I have a few problems with 2a as well, mainly from the 'not changing appearance much' bit. As long as you have the mass to work with, you should be able to get fairly interesting changes. Now, I agree - they're physical changes and not superpowers, but still...there are some fairly complex changes that you can get while staying within the limits of the physical. I've been working to define the parameters of my character's biomod. I'll try to post it to the Logbook in the next day or so, so that people can see what I think is possible.
So - opinions?

[Morganite]

I remember someone in the original thread saying having it be sentient would be a really bad thing... can't remember who though. '.'
You know, I get severe cognitive dissonance from this cat thing... I'm used to cats who want to go where you want to.
Personally, I like the idea of "You can make weapons if you're clever about it." It makes it possible for people to defend themselves against the various nasty people showing up in the setting without having to have hardtech weaponry, which doesn't make sense for most. But it also means you need to be creative about it. Reminds me of my favorite thing about "Mage: The Ascension".
-Morgan, because the Boskonians probably have faster ships than you do."I have no interest in ordinary humans. If there are any aliens, time travelers, or espers here, come sleep with me."
---From "The Ecchi of Haruhi Suzumiya"
-----(Not really)