[odd] IAmA Panzer Kunstler, AMA

[Dartz]

I Am A Panzer Kunstler, Ask Me Anything. self.IAmA
Submitted (09/08/2014) by Valkyriesride2012

I am a cyborg, training with the Panzer Kunst Gruppe here ot Grunthal, Mars. I've been with the Gruppe since 2012, earning my blades in 2013. While I have to be careful about some things, in general I should be pretty much able to answer anything about how and why we train, how we fight and what we do here. Or, what life is like for those of us who've traded meat for metal.

I've included an image of one of my personal blades with the hallmark from the Temple of Syrinx. The serial number has been erased.

Edit 1: Further proof provided to the moderators. Including the origin IP of my posts.

An oddball idea. But something might come from it. Or not. (And yes, it is Jet answering. May not answer everything, or even entire questions. I'll try make some sort of something together.)
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--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[classicdrogn]

I read the subject line, and wondered why being a kunstler would be Against Medical Advice...

I'm not sure how to phrase it, but perhaps one thing to address would be how various belief systems hold that bodily damage is reflected spiritually, and the fact that what you have is an entire school of martial arts based around at least partial replacement of the mk1 Squishie frame? I kind of brushed the question off in SWtA 1a, but it would provide a starting point to work from, even if it's kind of jumping..
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[classicdrogn]

in at the deep end, even in terms of philosophy of the group.

(grumblemuttershortinputlimtcurse)
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Dartz]

Ask a complex question, receive a four word answer. Ghost in the Shell.

It's succinct and basic, but it's not wrong either. We see the spirit, the 'self' as something entirely seperate to the body. We learn to get intouch with our naked geist while meditating, isolating ourselves entirely from our body. Then, steadily we allow our self to re-inhabit the body, mentally filling the void inside.

Getting a little more complex, the body also defines the geists interaction with the universe at large, the perception of the universe and our place within it. But, the body is defined at it's most basic level by the geist. We choose our own hardware, or our own physical appearrance based upon our personal needs, desires or requirements. The body does not have to reflect how you perceive yourself inside your minds eye, or how you define yourself. I chose my personal appearance for two specific reasons, while at the same time explicitly define myself as something else, and prefer a specific term to describe what I am.

The geist itself is a little harder to define. Searching for it is key to earlier stages of our training. It's about looking for whatever inside us defines us totally, and for each of us that's a different thing. It might be a memory or a personal experience. It might be an opinion or a deeply held belief that you know in your core to be right. It could also be the sum total of our individual experiences.

Spiritual damage for us however, manifests differently and can be hard to pin down. The most common would be a detachment from the self.... it's something almost all of us go through at one stage or another, especially immediately post-cyberisation. It's common enough that we call it 'Transition syndrome' even if it can be triggered by anything that happens to us - or that we do - which conflicts with what our personal image of our self is.

The idea that cybernetics eat your soul however, is laughable. Shadowrun's writers have caused us so much trouble it's not funny. There're plenty of other things out there that do, by hardware isn't one of them.

-------------

---- And I run out of time and have to run to work after spending an hour putting that together.
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--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Ace Dreamer]

Would an AI in an android body be able to follow this path? If yes, what constraints are there on them, if no, why not?

Androids with souls, or spirits, is that the same as your 'geist'?

(I'm probably talking sub-Armitage III bodies, here.)
[[Ace Dreamer contemplates a (re-programmed) Terminator trying to follow this path...]
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[Dartz]

Some of us with full conversions test out as a CI according to the standards set by VIR. The AR's are CI's built from the ground up and have no problems.

Nothing practically prevents an CI from studying the Panzer Kunst.
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--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[robkelk]

As I understand it, Panzer Kunst is a martial art with its own philosophy. What do you do when you don't agree with a part of that philosophy?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Dartz]

Reply to #68407 by Valkyriesride2012

We're all different from each other, far more different even than ordinary humans are. Adapting to suit the needs of the individual is a requirement because there is no one-size-fits-all. What worked for my Meister doesn't necessarily work for me, and an important part of a Meister's duty is to guide the student towards developing styles and techniques that do work for them. Coupled with that, an important part of every student's development is to develop their own Seinerweisen. Technically this translates as 'his ways', but the official meaning is 'Personal Wisdom'. It's our own individual interpretation of the kunst, to suit our individual requirements and unique capabilities.

This applies to the softer teachings, as much as it does to the harder ones. The philosophy should be adapted by the student to suit their own personal needs and beliefs, rather than the other way around. It's a martial art, it's supposed to be personal. It's supposed to be an expression of the artist. Although, that's my own belief there.

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--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Foxboy]

RLZorL@VFPW.co.fen asks

Ya-ho! Dad wants me to ask about "gentle" training and Heuristic Neuromimetic AIs.

--THE Lime!
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[Dartz]

Reply to #68407

That depends on what exactly a Heuristic Neuromimetic AI is?

Honestly, I'm not that well read up on AI technology/terminology or the nuances of CI psychology but I'm always willing to try teach a willing student. We learn more that way ourselves.

I'd still recommend bringing a humanoid body that's built tough, even for 'gentle' instruction. Just in case.....
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--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[HRogge]

**removed because of too early date**

[shaderic]

Well, this could be interesting.
*Flips IC Switch*

Dear Random Kunstler,
How does one actually become a Panzer Kunstler? Do you just talk with a representative from the organization after undergoing high-level cyberization, and they take you to Mars to train? Or, are there smaller local outposts where newby cyborgs are tutored at hospitals or local dojos? And you only go to Mars for advanced, high level training?
For that matter, what sort of training do you do there? It's all very neat to hear this cool stuff about meditation, but, from a practical standpoint, what do you end up doing? I have a friend who says they learned to juggle eggs while in Kunstler training, but I'm not sure of the accuracy of this statement, given my questionable sobriety at the time.
Signed, ChairForceMan

[Dartz]

To the removed redditor....

Let's just say, life after dark isn't boring.

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Reply to #61800 by Valkyriesride2012
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There're a couple of ways really.

The majority of people are referred here by their doc. That's how I joined and it's still the most common method. A lot of high-level cybers find they have problems controlling their bodies, and that's the first we have to teach them. It's also why most students start training with us. All they want to know is how to properly control themselves, and how not to break handles off the doors. We also handle accidental cyberisations, usually referred to our door by the doctor who's first examined them.

A few cybers find out about us on their own. Usually they get in contact with us directly and arrange an appointment to meet either here on Grunthal, or at their home.

The other method is to go the other way. We've got a referral agreement with Ares nearby and, if someone comes to our door and says they'd like to be a combat cyborg, we'll subsidise the conversion in exchange for a commitment of a minimum of five years. Decent combat-ware is expensive. We're also extremely careful to properly vette anyone applying this way.... there're a few people who really shouldn't be given the power we have. We now require at least two character references, or a statement of a person's good name from a major faction before referring them forward.

Right now, the only training's available on Mars. There's no reason why someone couldn't set up another school, but our sole base is here in Noctis Labyrinths. We aren't that large a faction. We have a few people on Kandor, mosly liasing with SHIELD and the like to maintain relations, or crosstraining. Crosstraining with Supers is fun.

I can confirm the egg thing. It's especially tough with metal hands. It's not a spectacular trick, but it requires far more concentration than block breaking. Most ordinary humans find it hard. I love just flicking it up in the air, while contuining to explain what I'm doing without overn watching it, then just nonchalantly sticking my hand out to catch it without shattering it. All without ever breaking eye contact. It's a trick that demonstrates multitasking, self awareness and use of the tracking and targetting systems built in to my body, beyond my visual eyesight.

Training can be quite intensive, especially over the first few weeks and months. It has to be. It wouldn't be unusual to be doing more than 12 hours a day. You've got to remember that most of us are quite capable of going without sleep for days at a time. That's also split up a lot and spread across the whole day, it's not just one block of 12 hours work. There's time to rest, there's time for individual hobbies. There's time to commute to Port Adelaide or Helium. A lot of us play motorball in our downtime.

Without getting into too much detail, what we do depends a lot on what stage a person's training is at. Anfanger spend most of their time just getting familiarised with their hardware and comfortable with their cybernetics, along with some very basic foundation exercises such as coordination development, and self awareness excersises (Like the egg) and important lifestyle things how to handle atmospheric transitions and low gravity environments, and why skimping on maintenance or going beyond what your instructor tells you is safe is a bad idea. This is where the egg thing comes in, once you can do that you're well able to move on the Tzereter level. Tzereter start learning how to actually defend themselves against an attacker, aswell as how to maintain their personal conditioning without outside help. Tzereter are a lot more physically active. Most training is conducted out of doors, either on the Martian surface or in outer space by more advanced members of the gruppe

Most people (4/5) will leave the Gruppe after completing Tzereter instruction.

That's basically what we do. Actual schedules can vary a lot, however, especially for Lehrling level and beyond, where the curtains get drawn and the students start taking mission

It's not easy by any means.

------

Meta ( It took me much longer than I expected to put that together. Whew)
EDIT: Original answer was to the wrong question.
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--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Star Ranger4]

Well then, Kunstler... if its truly about the spirit, have there EVER been members who wern't Full Body Conversions? I mean, you make it sound like its what's inside you more than what your made out of; that would imply that as long as the spirit is able, meat should be able to compete as well as metal does.
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

[Dartz]

Reply 132234 by Valkyriesride2012

No.

I've no personal objection to trying, but it's a matter of safety as much as anything.

Some of the softer teachings might be of use to unwitting biomod recipients, but the Sammies/Supers have much more experience with biomods and their unique requirements.
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--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[classicdrogn]

Just a side note (mainly for crosslinking when this makes its way to the wiki) but since the Gnarlycurl maintains affiliation as on call for hospital ship duty, though that business is thankfully much reduced since the end of the Boskone war, they make a point keeping contacts with the PKs due to their post-cybering physical therapy and psychological expertise, likewise the Supers for biomods. When joining actual operations, they usually request a member or two from each group be on hand if available.
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Dartz]

Kammer Gruppe members usually.... unless someone with less obvious augmentation's is requested, in which case one of the TUNED Gruppe will appearr. They tend to pass as human much easier.

And yes, Jet can lift it. But, unfortunately there was nothing good on at the time.

Now. Time for some Jepoardy.

I think it'd be a fair fight. I won't say more than that.

That sounds like too much of a busman's holiday. I sandbox a lot though, when I can get somewhere with a decent interwave hookup.

Actually, we've never met.

I really don't remember. For me, it was a Tuesday.

17

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--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[classicdrogn]

Kammer Gruppe members, usually

(nods) The whole point is that when some poor shmoe wakes up and finds a good chunk of himself replaced with metal, there's an obvious cyber right there to tell him that life isn't over, there are people who understand exactly what it's like and who will help him adapt and get on with living, and not incidentally do this kind of q&a as needed. Officially they're listed as extra security staff, but the primary focus is proactive handling of these issues.
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Dartz]

The whole point is that when some poor shmoe wakes up and finds a good chunk of himself replaced with metal, there's an obvious cyber right there to tell him that life isn't over, there are people who understand exactly what it's like and who will help him adapt and get on with living, and not incidentally do this kind of q&a as needed. Officially they're listed as extra security staff, but the primary focus is proactive handling of these issues.

This works well. The Gruppe has a good relationship with the Gnarlycurl crew anyway..... Gnarlycurl was a refuge for the Engels after they were caught in orbit of Ganymede when the first wave arrived at Serenitycon.

.... >..> Is that all? I guess it didn't work as well as I thought. Oh well.
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--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[shaderic]

Hey, give it some time.

Anyway, have some more fodder for you QA

Hey Kunstler,

I know the Gruppe's kinda new, but have any interesting traditions developed?

Well, maybe that's the wrong way to phrase it. Put another way, is there specific lingo you guys use? Secret handshakes are a little cliche, but would you define anything right now as a cultural action that is unique to Kunstlers?

Also, about the blades. They're a pretty unique symbol, but why do Kunstlers, a group centered around Cyborg fighting (I know it's more than that, but humor me here) give out swordsas a mark of mastery?

-Signed ChairForceMan

PS: Sorry for the random sounding questions, but the space cultures up here are all pretty fascinating. If I can somehow pull the time from somewhere, I might just visits Mars to check it all out.

[Dartz]

Traditions?

We're about 4 years old, just over that actually. It's been enough time to develop a few elusinian mysteries of our own. Some of them you'll have to get chromed yourself to discover....

But, well it's generally expected that Lehrling apprenticing to join one of the individual Gruppe will act as support to the Gruppe, preparing equipment before active missions, maintaining Grunthal itself and generallydoing their best to prove themselves worthy. In exchange, they learn some of the Gruppes Geheiminis techniques. There're a few other individual Gruppe ones.... for the Engel Gruppe, making a high speed canyon run without the benefit of your eyes is an important milestone in training that's built up it's own superstitions about the best techniques to use, and how to ensure the best weather.

There're a few combat ones, but we share a lot of them with other GJ forces we worked with.

It's common for Kunstler to have their individual Gruppe insignia permanently engraved on their armour. Once a Panzer Kunstler, always a Panzer Kunstler. It's generally done after the first combat mission as a full member of the Gruppe. Doing it before that would be considered a little presumptuous.

There's also some oddball stuff like the Peter's number, the Winry coefficient and the fact that the leader of the TUNED Gruppe is always called 'Major'. Or how our Space Patrol liaison also always uses the callsign 'Murphy'.

The blades come from the source fandom. They're made from a pattern-welded steel by the techpriests at Syrinx. We call them Damascus blades, because of the particular pattern the impurities in the steel give it. It's like liquid irridescence flowing through the metal and it gives the steel it's fantastic strength. They serve as a constant reminder to us that it's the 'impurities' that gives us our strength, beyond just hard training. It's a reminder that hobbies, enjoyment and 'humanity' is as important as raw mechanical skill. We have to be people, not just a cold hard razor's edge. That path leads only to self-destruction, the same as a pure-steel blade can shatter like glass. They also tarnish quickly, and lose their strength if allowed to get dirty. It's serves as a reminder to maintain our edge and practice, even in our downtime or we lose our strength. And it's tough to get it back.

That, and some of us (me included) don't like carrying long firearms. Especially when you're fast moving like we are, they tend to get in the way. And there's no penalty to us for carrying a heavy handgun like a Desert Eagle for when a little bit of range is helpful.

If you want to come out and visit.... we don't turn away visitors but try to understand that there is a safety issue for unmodified people.

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--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[M Fnord]

So, let's say I was interested in hiring a Gruppe for a job. How would I go about doing that? What're the general price ranges, is there a set rate or does it vary depending on the job? Are there moral lines beyond the usual things? And would I have to provide transportation?

Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Ace Dreamer]

If the "techpriests at Syrinx" are that important to the PK (I assume they are W40k Fen), might it be worth expanding a bit on how many of them there are, what sorts of specific things they do apart from make PK swords and other things with similar fancy metal?

Do you think any Boskone would be stupid enough to raid them for their tech? Do Boskone run to things like Chaos Marines? Or, I guess there is always Cultist-chan (what sort of biomod would that be?).

For real fun, to front an assault, have Boskone 'borrow' something from Monster Asteroid, 'wave it up with quite a few tons of stolen meat products... Zombie Godzilla or something...
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[Dartz]

So, let's say I was interested in hiring a Gruppe for a job. How would I go about doing that? What're the general price ranges, is there a set rate or does it vary depending on the job? Are there moral lines beyond the usual things? And would I have to provide transportation?

We generally just handle secure courier and cargo transport security. Rate varies depending on distance, time, how many of us are needed to take the job, and the value of the cargo and the perceived threat. It's a flat rate for the entire mission, provided the mission doesn't go outside agreed bounds. We don't usually do offensive missions on other people's credits however. Rescue missions are best officially handled by Great Justice or the Patrol.

We can only officially take offensive missions with prior authorisation from either the Patrol or GJ. Which usually means that we've received those missions from the Patrol or GJ or one of the bigger factions. We're forbidden from doing it by the same agreement that lets us work with GJ or the Patrol. Nobody wants us to go the way our namesakes did in Gunnm.

That has to be the official policy. Otherwise we could get into real trouble.

Transport. Generally, we ride along on the employer's transport. Expenses involved in getting to and from the job are part of the fee. Despite being able to move through space under our own power, it's nice to have somewhere nearby where we can store our gear or fall back to if we get shot up. The amount of times I went blue in the face arguing this with desk-droids on Arisia.... Be nice. Give us somewhere to rest.

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If the "techpriests at Syrinx" are that important to the PK (I assume they are W40k Fen), might it be worth expanding a bit on how many of them there are, what sorts of specific things they do apart from make PK swords and other things with similar fancy metal?

Do you think any Boskone would be stupid enough to raid them for their tech? Do Boskone run to things like Chaos Marines? Or, I guess there is always Cultist-chan (what sort of biomod would that be?).

For real fun, to front an assault, have Boskone 'borrow' something from Monster Asteroid, 'wave it up with quite a few tons of stolen meat products... Zombie Godzilla or something...

Please. Don't give the Boskone ideas. They come up with enough horrors on their own.

They had Marine power armour, after hitting the hab on Titan that produced it, stealing the plans then blowing it sky high. A lot of them bought into the Chaos Marine image, solely for the intimidation value. If they could intimidate a rock into not fighting back, that made life so much easier for them.

First I'd say, never call an enemy action stupid until after you're certain you've foiled their plans. The Boskone were not stupid. The priests at Syrinx are concerned enough that they might be raided that they pay us to provide protection (It helps that we're less than fifty kilometres way), in the form of the Panzer Blades. Considering they're beavering away there trying to rediscover the lost technology of the far future, I think they're right to be worried, especially after the theft of the Power Armour plans.

They'll happily sell you a working .75 Calibre boltgun. But they're still stuck trying to figure out how to make the depleted deuterium inside the ammunition work, so it's really just a fancy ornament unless you can make something yourself. They stick religiously close to their source material, to the point of being hidebound by it to the point of ridiculousness. Oh, and they have chainswords. Chainswords are awesome fun. Bloody useless, inelegant and totally fun. They use similar steel to our blades. Knives and swords they make use lower-grade, low-maintenance Martian Steel.

One thing I will say. Everything they make is precision hand made to fit exactly. It's expensive, but it's a work of artisans. Every single piece is a customised Book of Kells moulded from Steel.

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--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[robkelk]

Since you have some secrets that only "initiates" get to learn, what do you do if somebody wants to leave the Panzer Kunst Gruppe?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012