[odd] IAmA Panzer Kunstler, AMA

[Dartz]

You can check out any time you like but you can never truly leave. Barring memory erasure, you'll always be a Kunstler on some level. Even if for whatever reason you decide to go as far back to normal human life as possible. You'll always have your skills to fall back on. It'll always be a part of you in some way. Still, it's not unusual for someone to leave Grunthal, or step down from the official membership roster.

Most people who leave Grunthal are just returning to their 'home' faction where most of their friends still live. They've gone as far as they want to with their training, or have lost interest in the lifestyle. We can't keep people from choosing to leave. We can't stop someone from setting up their own school and trying to teach, or writing a book about it. Most of the 'secrets' are probably already out there to be found by spending a few trawling through the interwave. Someone's probably even going to post the links right after this, I swear. But really, where's the fun in that?

Part of the reason they're kept 'secret' is to keep lower level trainees from trying them before they're ready - they'll only hurt someone - and to give a sense of accomplishment and achievement as someone moves up and grows in skill. Part of the 'secret' is the adapting of the skill to the Kunstler's own body, and teaching them how to make it work for themselves, which is individual to the Kunstler and requires a lot of skill on the part of the Meister. It's possible to know everything and still not know how to make it work.

On the other hand, some of us are contracted to the Gruppe for a fixed term. If they had cybernetics or maintenance subsidized they have to pay the balance owed on that before leaving if they want to go before the contract is up. Most of us are Deltaware level, paying that off out of pocket gets expensive, and ducking out on the fee makes getting maintenance harder because people will be wary about working with someone can't pay. It's a little like a cellphone contract, only we make sure that anyone going this route is specifically and completely aware that this is the case beforehand. It's an affordable way of getting Deltaware and Edgeware grade work done, but requires a lot of work afterwards to pay it off.
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[Ace Dreamer]

Once you've got cheap-ish, low-enough power use, and portable FTL communications, which is near impossible to jam...

Dropping your PK body into nice safe storage and maintenance, and remote puppetting something that looks and controls as if human, sounds remarkably attractive...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrogates_%28film%29

Original Keith Laumer story:

http://www.webscription.n...35370/0743435370___3.htm

One way to 'retire'?
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"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[Dartz]

A few of us have personal puppets, but they are pretty expensive. To do it right means a new interface built in.

I just can't afford one right now. And if I could, honestly, I'm not sure what I'd want to look like. Picking a body, after all, is a pretty bold statement about how I want the 'verse to see me.

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[robkelk]

We hear a lot about people who were born human and became cyborgs in order to join the PKG. Has anybody ever gone the other way - started as an AI and added living bits?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Dartz]

We've never had anyone like that with us. But..... I know there're machines out there that incorporate biological parts in them already. But those were built from the ground up, or waved to be that way. Terminator skin is the most obvious thing I can think of straight off the bat; that's actually in use.

You'd have to ask someone at Vesta or one of the Doc's about the technological side of what it'd actually involve and what'd be possible going beyond surface detail. At a guess it'd be harder to do than going in the other direction but I expect someone to weigh in and correct me on that. I'm really not up on the theoretical end of things, especially the biotechnology side.
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[Ace Dreamer]

A few of us have personal puppets, but they are pretty expensive. To do it right means a new interface built in.

I just can't afford one right now. And if I could, honestly, I'm not sure what I'd want to look like. Picking a body, after all, is a pretty bold statement about how I want the 'verse to see me.

What would you think of someone who maintained a "body wardrobe", and treated their choice of puppet as a fashion decision?
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"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[Dartz]

What would you think of someone who maintained a "body wardrobe", and treated their choice of puppet as a fashion decision?

I'd think they were very, very wealthy.

Chose your body according to the situation, for the best capabilities or or to gain a desired social reaction? That actually sounds pretty cool. I mean, part of the reason I kept my current look was that, in most situations, it gets me a better first impression or a better natural reaction. I mean, we see our bodies as mutable tools anyway - we have to - switching out bodies according to the situation would just a logical extension of that.

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[Cobalt Greywalker]

We've never had anyone like that with us. But..... I know there're machines out there that incorporate biological parts in them already. But those were built from the ground up, or waved to be that way. Terminator skin is the most obvious thing I can think of straight off the bat; that's actually in use.

You'd have to ask someone at Vesta or one of the Doc's about the technological side of what it'd actually involve and what'd be possible going beyond surface detail. At a guess it'd be harder to do than going in the other direction but I expect someone to weigh in and correct me on that. I'm really not up on the theoretical end of things, especially the biotechnology side.

It's not that easy to add on, which is the reason most the have it were purpose built. Still, it can be done. The main problem for mass use is personalisation. Medical cloning is one thing, we don't have the knowledge to change the appearance of organs to spec. However, it is possible to grow some generic parts. Skin is probably the easiest, given that the form that it is mounted on helps. Things like hair are simple, but things like eyes are hard (It has been done once or twice, but there were high levels of wave involved). After that, well expect heavy amounts of wave to be used.

[Ace Dreamer]

Don't forget that any living parts will need some sort of support system.

Blood supply, sugar and oxygen for energy, material to repair or replace cells, something that takes away waste carbon dioxide, other metabolic waste. Then, you'll need an interface to any nerves in the living parts, to give instructions, or get feedback, like a sense of touch, maybe even smell or taste, not to mention various chemosensors. Glands to generate hormones, an immune system.

All-in-all, not trivial. There is an excellent chance you'll need a different systems design for each different set of living parts, so requirements are met, and the interface is correct.

Skin is the most obvious organ, for its sensory possibilities and socialisation. If the skin is done right, you get hair with it. If the skin extends to an accurate mouth and nasal system, you can get taste and smell. Messing with organic eyes, except for a Terminator-like fake, is iffy, as the optic nerve is effectively an extension of an organic brain.

With that much skin you'll need some way of oxygenating it; what is the lung equivalent? Then there is the question of how much of a digestive system is desirable, and how you feed the living parts. Whether there is oxygen storage and/or food storage. Whether the living parts are supposed to smell like a human.

Reproductive organs might really complicate things. Whoes DNA do you use?
The ultimate version is a totally human body, except for an upper brain, which is inorganic, possibly running on sugar and oxygen for a power supply.  In theory a relative of the Julian Friez Machine could make you one of these bodies.
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"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[Dartz]

Submitted (10/08/2014) by Valkyriesride2012

Don't forget that any living parts will need some sort of support system.

Blood supply, sugar and oxygen for energy, material to repair or replace cells, something that takes away waste carbon dioxide, other metabolic waste.

I will say that, those of us with more biology can have somepretty specialist needs and requirements. That's based more on operating experience than anything technical. I'd also say that having a higher biological fraction has saved a life as often as it's endangered it.

Still, you get all the advantages of both, but the disadvantages of both too and I really don't want to get into too much detail in a public channel. The end result is someone with more complex needs than either a full cyber, or full biologic. The real pain is that, while in an emergency you can patch a full borg up pretty quick if you have any mechatronic knowledge. But if there's any significant biology affected, that needs some real specialised care. Need less maintenance overall, because it'll self-heal and self repair but it's harder to find someone capable of doing it because it needs surgical techniques.

It's a good excuse not to get shot up. I just can't take a risk tanking damage as easily the others, even with chunky bit of help from homeostasis. At the same time I'd argue that if you're ever resorting to tanking you're doing something wrong and need to stop doing it right now anyway but that's a matter of tactics.
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[Ace Dreamer]

Is transfering a PK to a totally cybernetic body (no living organics) ever an indicated medical procedure?
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"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[Dartz]

Reply to 35624 by Valkyriesride2012

I've never heard of that being done on purpose.

A lot of us are Total Conversion, but even so there's some of the brain left. There has to be, that's where our memories live and so far we can't copy that.

Whether it's feasible or not in the near future, again you want to talk to an expert. I know how to live with cybertech, I don't know the ins and outs about how it actually works. I can do a little self-maintenance and emergency battlefield repairs to get a comrade home, and that's about the limit of my expertise.
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[KJ]

Speaking purely OOCly, I actually did have Boskos in 40k-style space marine armor in a story, that may get published... eventually. I'm sure everyone's familiar with the regularity (or lack thereof) of my writing output by now.
[Dee]  How much diversity is there in why and what people are there for? I know you mention people referred to the gruppe to learn control, and those wishing to become something akin to weapons, but what else, and what else is there room for? More to the point, being a relatively atypical constructed intelligence type, but one that's interested... I wouldn't like to interfere, I guess.

[Dartz]

Honestly, I'd be curious to see what you'd bring to us, especially if you're 'atypical' to the normal.

A lot of our philosophy is based around a 'human' psyche, and easing a human psyche through the transition into something that, when you think about it, really isn't human anymore in a way that the individual can accept and internalise safely. It's also up to the individual to find what works for them, and we can guide you into using this framework to find a personal philosophy that will help you define yourself, who and what you are in the universe.

Or we can try. To be honest,I think, we might have more to learn from you.

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Meta: This question broke Me. Jet would likely be able to answer better than I dd. If it comes across as bullshitty, that's an author failure.
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[KJ]

*possibly via PM; whatever, I can't IRC at work*

[Dee] Partly I'm curious about getting an insight the opposite direction, if you take my meaning. Plus there's other factors, of course. Perhaps I'll send the big me along, then.

[Ace Dreamer]

I did wonder what the PK would say if Uran turned up and asked for training...
http://www.fenspace.net/index.php5?title=Uran
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"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[Dartz]

I don't think we'd be able to train her. You'd have to be cold hearted and evil to want to hit someone that cute, even in a sparring match.
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[Ace Dreamer]

I don't think we'd be able to train her. You'd have to be cold hearted and evil to want to hit someone that cute, even in a sparring match.

Uran's first comment would be that she could try and prank you until you were willing to hit her...
Then, she'd politely ask what sort of body she'd have to come back in so you'd be willing to train her.
But, the 1m tall body is her combat form, with all the strength and toughness.  So, that's the one she'd probably be fighting in.  Who else would they recommend to train her? 
Then she suggests she use illusions so she looks more dangerous.
Her Chaos Doomguard look, with the pink armour wash, and the frilly bits, looks too cute to live...
And she follows this up with full-body duck-billed platypuss 'play pyjamas' (that's the ones with the head as a hat (with cross-eyes)).  And a kung fu pose.
Then she does Bubbles, of the "Power Puff Girls", complete with the floating-in-the-air bit, bobbing up and down.  But, she explains, she can't do the destructive eye beams, or talk to animals.  Then flicks to Buttercup, then to Blossom.
Then she switches to a 1m tall version of Gally/Alita, and gives a nasty grin.
So, does she get to (try to) chuck any PK into and maybe through walls? [grin]
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[Star Ranger4]

MURPH!!!

Yes, my Don?

Where are you?

Just outside of LEO.

Get down the hole to to these co-ordinates, pick up a load of insulin and rush it to Gurnthal on mars. We owe them and they're calling in the favor.

Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

[Dartz]

I don't think we'd be able to train her. You'd have to be cold hearted and evil to want to hit someone that cute, even in a sparring match.

Uran's first comment would be that she could try and prank you until you were willing to hit her...
Then, she'd politely ask what sort of body she'd have to come back in so you'd be willing to train her.
But, the 1m tall body is her combat form, with all the strength and toughness.  So, that's the one she'd probably be fighting in.  Who else would they recommend to train her? 
Then she suggests she use illusions so she looks more dangerous.
Her Chaos Doomguard look, with the pink armour wash, and the frilly bits, looks too cute to live...
And she follows this up with full-body duck-billed platypuss 'play pyjamas' (that's the ones with the head as a hat (with cross-eyes)).  And a kung fu pose.
Then she does Bubbles, of the "Power Puff Girls", complete with the floating-in-the-air bit, bobbing up and down.  But, she explains, she can't do the destructive eye beams, or talk to animals.  Then flicks to Buttercup, then to Blossom.
Then she switches to a 1m tall version of Gally/Alita, and gives a nasty grin.
So, does she get to (try to) chuck any PK into and maybe through walls? [grin]

Reply by Valkyriesride2012

I think she's win through diabetes.

In all seriousness, we could probably train her. But.... call me a fool.... I feel sort of awkward at the idea of punching someone that looks so much like a child. It might sound silly, but it makes me really uncomfortable. And there's a matter of emotional maturity to consider. If she's got a childlike mindset, I don't really want to be responsible for knocking that sense of innocent joy on the head.
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[Ace Dreamer]

She goes away, and comes back with a woman, with the same colour hair, and more adult features; maybe in her early 20s. The woman explains that she is also Uran, but in an effectively unenhanced human body, a 'squishy', with a limited lifespan. She points to the Uran floating in the air beside her, grinning, and explains that the child form is the combat model.

All she (the older woman) can do is the more human stuff, like eat ice cream (the child Uran smiles rubs her own stomach), or 'adult' stuff (the floating Uran mutters "Icky!"). "Shape affects mindset", the woman comments with a smile.

The child Uran is incredibly strong, tough, can fly even in vacuum, and can go invisible. Yes, she is skilled in kung fu, and maybe ninjutsu, but only to sub-black belt level. That's good, but will not prove enough against some opponents.

The older Uran explains, yes, she could find 'squishy' martial arts instructors, and use-up her limited lifespan polishing her martial arts skills. But, this wouldn't transfer to the child Uran, whose the person whose going to need them.
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"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[Dartz]

Reply by Valkyriesride2012

Well.... now that's a highly effective combat model. You'd have to be utterly heartless and inhuman to want to fight against her.

If she really wants training, we can try.
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[Ace Dreamer]

Uran (child version) makes the comment, "And, I didn't even have to prank you to get you to train me!".

[grin]

The older Uran comments on long, hot, baths to recover from psychological bruises...
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"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind