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Quote:[b]HRogge wrote:[/b]
Please do not forget that the Venus Cities can fly interplanetary distances. 
It's the principle of the thing -weapons in your city walls (even your flying city walls) are defensive; weapons in an armored ship are offensive. It's a show of trust on the part of the convention. "Trust", not stupidity: That's why the Space Patrol has Section 9, to check if the weapons are defensive. Well, or they would if Section 9 existed. Which it doesn't, just for the record.
Yes, there are countless ways to take advantage of that loophole -but the kind of people to take such advantage would ignore the treaty anyway.
The main problem I find with the treaty and the inspections -which I agree in general- are that they seem to place the Factions a suspects as a starting point. Surprise inspections by foreign officers are the sort of thing you do to hostile nations under international sanctions, not to your allies. Your allies, you pretend to believe then when they claim they are following the rules (and use your spies to check it they are actually telling the truth)
Rakhasa Wrote:It's the principle of the thing -weapons in your city walls (even your flying city walls) are defensive; weapons in an armored ship are offensive. It's a show of trust on the part of the convention. "Trust", not stupidity: That's why the Space Patrol has Section 9, to check if the weapons are defensive. Well, or they would if Section 9 existed. Which it doesn't, just for the record.#
Yes, there are countless ways to take advantage of that loophole -but the kind of people to take such advantage would ignore the treaty anyway. I do not think it makes sense to distinguish between "offensive" and "defensive" placed weapons. Too many Fen have (semi-) mobile homes, which means that they either get punished for being mobile or the whole treaty doesn't make sense at all.
Another argument for limiting the total amount of "strategic" weapons (not only "offensive" ones) is that you do not need strategic weapons for defense. You can do fine with normal ones, because you have the advantage of the better armor (for example thick asteroids) and the attacker has not.
Quote:The main problem I find with the treaty and the inspections -which I agree in general- are that they seem to place the Factions a suspects as a starting point. Surprise inspections by foreign officers are the sort of thing you do to hostile nations under international sanctions, not to your allies. Your allies, you pretend to believe then when they claim they are following the rules (and use your spies to check it they are actually telling the truth)
I think if you have some control who does this checks, it might be possible to persuade a lot of Fen to do it.
And better have open inspections than secret spies everywhere.
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Dartz Wrote:Question... does choosing to live outside the Fenspace convention automatically make one a Boskonian? M Fnord Wrote:"Boskonian" is a term of art applied to people who aren't simply outside the Convention but are also actively engaging in criminal activity (by Fenspace and Earth standards). Just dropping out into the main belt or the Kupier or whatever doesn't automatically make someone Boskonian, it's when they start trading slaves or guns or thionite that they make the turn. Yep - I only said the Roughriders would be "Boksonian by default" because we're discussing outlawing their level of private ownership of strategic assets.
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Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
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KJ Wrote:My vision is the unified command (NATTO - Not Actually Terran Treaty Organization) robkelk Wrote:I will point out that Fenspace|KJ and Fenspace|Mal voted down "Ultraterrestrial Naturalized Citizens for Law Enforcement" as the name for what became the Space Patrol, on the ground of it being too silly.
So Noah's voting against changing the name to of Great Justice to "NATTO". Pick something a bit more dignified, please... I asked Epsilon about renaming GJ... His reply:
Quote:Go for something official and alphabet-soupy. Like it wasn't created by a bunch of geeks.
Combined Space and Planet Command (CSPC) or United Space Force (USF) or something.
I like CSPC or some variation thereof, myself...
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Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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CSPC makes no sense to me.
And Marsden will also veto NATTO, although he did get a private laugh out of UNCLE.
Hmmm.
Law Enforcement Organizations Beyond the Orbit of Earth and Luna?
But, honestly, out of respect to the history of the Convention, Marsden will simply suggest that we license the Dorsai Irregulars.
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Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.
You don't think the "Solarian League" would be good? [grin]
How long do you expect any initial organisation to last?
What are the criteria for it being replaced by a successor organisation?
What sort of over-watch would there be for this organisation?
How many Fen would vote for it/vote against it, given a choice?
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The Inter-factional Military Cooperative (IMC)? Short, sweet, to the point, and IMC rolls off the tongue rather nicely, I think.
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Oh, and BTW: having this interfactional defense force (Hey! IDF! That's another good one!) lease out Roughrider equipment... with the amount Ben would be willing to build? Holy crap! That would easily put Ben in the same bracket as Noah Scott and Padreigh (sp?) O'Neil! In fact, the suddenness of Ben's success might even make the two of them blanch.
And the awesome part about it is that, due to Ben being busy doing the Leader Thing, most people wouldn't even notice, except for those politically savvy enough to notice. He'd usually only ever be seen in public when he has to come out and conduct business personally (mostly at Cons) or if he's running an operation in person (very rare). Sure, he likes to live comfortably, but he'll do that in the confines of his own home away from prying eyes. (Let's see any Paparazzi get past millions of metric tons of stone, a dozen check points, and an over-protective armor-piercing data-corgi.) He won't start vacationing seriously until about 2020, when Mayonaka is biologically 10 years old and Ben figures she ought to enjoy things like going to the beach. (Decanted in 2014 with a biological age of 4.) Maybe joint trips with the Scott family? Reply in new thread or just PM me.
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Sounds like the potential to be a major conflict of interest and political scandal.... if on of the commanders of the Interfactional Military Force is also the person who profits most from selling hardware to it....
Even if that's not the exact case, someone's going to make that hay while the sun shines.
Any standards compliant hardware should be welcome. So long as it's compatible with GJ standard munitions and fuels, anything goes. Standardising to one producer/manufacturer has obvious problems....
A that's loaded into a Havoc will work loaded onto a Blackbird's launch cell or strapped under a Zig's wing. Gun control software interfaces (As opposed to the actual software itself where there's a lot of room forperformance/useability tweaking) and the like is standardised for plug and play use.
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--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?
I should note, BA, that I'm thinking of lease pricing in terms of a bit more than "here, have incentive to not scrap stuff already built and sell it for metal price" instead of "Earthside military-industrial-complex pricing"... and I can't see there *not* being an upper limit on what the Convention would be willing to shell out in total. But there's no reason why it shouldn't be possible to at least remain financially solvent and all, or do something like use the income from that to springboard development of stuff for consumer use. You know, peace dividend and all.
These are sort of my ideas how to balance things and keep everyone happy... others can feel free to chip in, in fact please do so. At a meta level, I'm trying to figure out how to scale things to where there's some incentive for people with enough interest to keep doing some R&D and production, but within limits - over the long term, encourage things that are affordable for their capabilities and efficient in terms of manpower, and decommission things that are getting long in the tooth and obsolete. I don't want to stop people from developing new wargear if that's what they really ICly and OOCly want to be doing (I mean hell, VVS is going to occasionally do stuff in that vein too even if that's not our primary focus) but similarly I don't want to make it so profitable to do so that it would be draining the Convention's coffers (because really, there is a lot of other stuff that is going to need doing) or creating an alloy overcast (because past a point it's asking for trouble).
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Dartz Wrote:... the Interfactional Military Force ... I vote for this name.
Mainly because it allows for a throwaway scene - once - explaining why Noah Scott's too busy to show up in a story. He's coordinating with the International Monetary Fund to get some bridging capital into the Convention so the Interfactional Military Force can pay salaries for a couple of months in peacetime, and somebody's confusing the two IMFs in the paperwork.
(Then there's that other IMF... Do we call the new leader "Mr. Phelps"?)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Interfactional Military Force also reminds me of Hot Fuzz - guidelines on the use of the term "Force", possible innuendo, etc. If we want to do away with GJ (possibly not necessary but whatever, I'm just the guy broaching brainstorming stuff) that seems... well, far better than NATTO, though NATTO at least amused me while I was typing stuff about it.
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What's so wrong with Great Justice? 
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery
FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information
"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
At the current idea of just reorganizing it to accomplish the same thing as I originally had in mind creating a new entity for, nothing. Whoa, that sentence got convoluted. I think some people still had the "new entity" idea.
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There will be wags suggesting "UN Spacy", I'm sure.
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(jumps up and down, waving his hand)
New Unity Nations Spacy also works for me, with the rotated-in militia/civilian contractors being the Special Military Service.
I just don't expect anyone else to seriously agree to it.
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woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows
I suspect that even if it is still "Great Justice" under the hood, a lot of people will want it to have a new name, that suggests it is more than an "ad hoc" organisation.
Follow the KIS principle "Keep It Simple". So, a name like "UFM" for "Unified Fenspace Militaries".
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How about the Convention Security Service (or, yes, Spacy), with faction temps being Assosciate Security Forces? Though SMS does actually make sense as more than just a fan ref.
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"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows
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Well, if we must change the name, put me down for Interplanetary Defense Force. I like 'interplanetary' over 'interfactional,' it sounds better. Or Interplanetary Peacekeeping Force - a tip of the hat to Ben Bova's muscular UN.
(Also, the main reason I'm being such a pain in the ass about this is because I've used 'Great Justice' extensively in Candle, and I really really don't want to have to go back and edit all of those references out. %P )
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery
FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information
"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
I'm for GJ; it rubs people's face in that they got cast out by a bureaucratic org chart reshuffle. 
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Well, I already gave my vote for GJ, too, so add me to the list 
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So let's go for Great Justice, then.
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I'm with CD as far as voting for Spacy.
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children
I think keeping the name "Great Justice" works fine... it has a meaning in Fenspace, which might help to keep the organization running smoothly.
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If it's just reorganizing the existing setup (and to support new material appearing for Candle instead of rehashing for continuity) then by all means, keep GJ. If its something new, well... I'm an unapologetic rabid Macross freak, so of course such references amuse and appeal to me.
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"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows
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