The view from outside - In re folks who know about Fenspace and "Don't Get It"

[robkelk]

Folks, I'm going to ask that we all step back for a day or two, think about everything that's been said here, and come back once our emotions have cooled.

In essence, Mark has just given the Fenspace Writers' Collective its first "bad review." And I, for one, think that's a good thing - as long as we take it as constructive criticism.

How we can take it as constructive criticism without changing the setting even more than the retconning-away of the Boskone War would ... is currently beyond me. But I'm sure it can be done.

(And much of that's been said can be applied, to a lesser or greater degree, to both the Whole Fenspace Catalog and our recent "magic is loose in the world" idea.)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[HRogge]

do we want to move the discussion about the 'Fenspace Feedback from Mark to a different thread? Or do we continue here?

[Bob Schroeck]

We'll let it rest for a bit, and then, if people still want to discuss it, we'll spin it off.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[robkelk]

Let's leave it fallow for a bit. I'm still trying to decide how to respond to it... and to Mal's email to me regarding it. But I want to respond to it in a way that makes sense to leave the discussion in this "view from outside" thread.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[robkelk]

Okay, we've all had time to relax and ponder this. Now to get discussion going again, and I hope we can do this in a calm and grown-up manner.

The contention that I see here arises from two setting elements: the "personality of the universe" (for want of a better term) and the nature of handwavium. I'll discuss both.

First, the "personality of the universe." Fenspace is not a dystopia - it says so right on the tin. This is not a setting where grimdark really works, unless it's being used to counterpoint some happybright. Conversely, this is not a utopia; this is not a setting where happybright really works unless it's being used to counterpoint some grimdark. But it isn't a completely uncaring universe, either - it has Handwavium, which is (to say the least) improbable.

The way I see Fenspace, the setting runs on a loosely-interpreted version of Spinozan philosophy. Human thought is very much able to influence the universe, knowledge can be gained through imagination, and morality is based upon both epistemology and utility.

However, humanity as a species does not have a single goal that we all strive toward, so utility is measured differently for different people - sometimes subtly differently, sometimes blatantly differently. Thus, an instrumentality of some sort is presented to satisfy those different definitions of utility. Enter handwavium... which I'll discuss in a moment.

Enlightened Self-Interest works well in such a world, and the characters that make up the SMOF all practice enlightened self-interest to a lesser or greater degree. Yes, particular people want particular things and are willing to go to great lengths to get those things (for example, spending years turning a hamlet into a huge spaceship, or building a space station and crewing it with AIs, or stealing a Soviet shuttle-knockoff), but all of those people are willing to share their efforts with others. Nobody is solely "looking out for number one" (save for some of the Boskonians) and nobody is completely selfless. The characters that work best in the setting are the ones that reflect the setting - morality is based upon both epistemology and utility.

Second, the nature of Handwavium. This is something that has never been discussed in depth. We've skirted around it, tossed out a few ideas about it, and decided to leave it as an area of Canon Uncertainty and Doubt. But, as with everything else we've tossed into that category, there comes a time when we have to chew the CUD.

Some call it "magic," but there are a large number of definitions of that word. Using the definition at LessWrong.com, magic is "something we don't understand yet."

Consider the interpretation of Spinozan philosophy I presented earlier, and connect that to handwavium. This presents handwavium as an instrumentality that allows one to focus human thought to influence the universe on a scale that is starkly incredible. Since no two humans think in exactly the same way, no two humans will get exactly the same results from handwavium - the science in effect here includes but is not limited to psychology.

And that's as far as I've been able to take this, so far... Opinions and comments, anyone?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Foxboy]

A little deeper and headier than many folks would be apt to think about, but definitely something that would make a good bit of Epistolary fiction, such as the transcript of a Con Panel, Email exhanges and letters back and forth.
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[Cobalt Greywalker]

I had to write this down, but I’m not sure how successful I am.

One of the things commonly stated is that Handwavium is a memetic substance. It responds to thought and belief, and with the variance of thought in people (and while one person can approximate the thought of another person, they cannot exactly match that original thought because that are not that person at the time of that thought.) the effects and affects are different.

That is not to say there are not commonalities in thought with people. There are certain things all of us think about.

In the case I’ve chosen as an example, the commonality I’ve chosen is survival. Survival is by the definition of the www.oed.com]The Oxford English Dictionary:

the state or fact of continuing to live or exist, typically in spite of an accident, ordeal, or difficult circumstances.

It’s fairly easy to see how this would apply to the Fen, but in an intrinsic sense we think about survival in subtler ways. Take for example, food. We need food to continue to live. Getting food in a modern society requires purchasing it, which requires some means of exchange (normally something of acknowledged value, like money), which means acquiring that means of exchange, which means working, etc… This requires systems to move all the necessary resources around without problems so all the steps in the chain have the inputs needed to produce the outputs the next step use.

Thus, we get the lack of quirks in Life Support technologies.

This does, however, mean that Handwavium does not just respond to the thoughts of the individual currently using it, but to the collective thoughts of Life in general.

Given the above, you would think ANYTHING that endangers Life would be prevented, but for the vast majority of Life it requires OTHER life to end. This is the Food Chain, and we all know it at least subconsciously.

It does, however, lead to that property that has come to be known as the Slapstick Effect. After all, weapons are normally used to make sure the wielder is not killed. The problem with this is that there are times where not being killed requires killing the threat, of whom there is quite naturally an inbuilt reluctance to die either. This leads to methods that prevent all parties being killed.
This does not mean things have to be painless, or not embarrassing. Pain is a biological response to physically harmful situations, whereas embarrassment is a socially conditioned response to socially harmful situations. Preventing harm thus equates to preventing death.

Extrapolating from this is tricky. If Handwavium is in fact responding to the psychological states of both the individual and society, than the inconsistency seen is an effect of clashing priorities.

This doesn’t solve anything, but does at least partially explain why Handwavium is as chaotic as it seems.

I don’t know how clear my views are here, but I hope this adds to the discussion.

[robkelk]

I had to write this down, but I’m not sure how successful I am.

It took me two weeks to come up with what I posted... so I don't expect crystal-clear replies in mere hours.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[HRogge]

Some thought I had about "Handwaving Randomness and Reproducability"...

You cannot build something with Handwavium and expect it to be exactly as you like, neither for abilities nor for the quirks or shortcomings.

BUT if you are experienced at working with Handwavium, you will get better in REPRODUCING a something you got while experimenting with it.

So if you wave a prototype and REALLY LIKE all its general abilities and quirks, you should be able to get more (similar, but maybe not exactly) of it. If not you might need to scrap it and start again.

Thats also one of my internal reasons why the whole Eezo thing of CI has a pretty BAD performance compared to other Gravity Drive strains... CI wants a Handwavium strain which produce a reasonable set of quirks, which means lots of experimentations and prototypes... and accepting more limits!

[M Fnord]

My turn, I guess.

Linking what amounts to straight author fiat to Spinoza is, in my estimation, overthinking it. So let’s talk about the genre directive, since that seems to be the main point of contention.

The directive is not universal, and by that I mean it’s a rule that exists outside the universe of Fenspace. It’s a directive aimed by the editor towards the creator, by the consensus of the current creators towards new creators or by the consensus of the creators towards themselves. It was put in place because Fenspace started during a long stretch of bad karma in the global zeitgeist – one that we’re still wallowing in, to be frank – and there was a temptation to just go grimderp with the setting. You can see flashes of this in the older material: things back on Earth were obviously not good and looking like they weren’t going to get much better anytime soon, so why not flee into space?

So, the genre directive became “this is not a dystopia.” The intent was to head off people who wanted to turn Earth into a generic Orwellian cyberpunk nightmare world, as well as people who wanted to fill the hinterlands of Fenspace with psychopaths, monsters and slavers. When I wrote it, I wanted to wall off our bitterness and our cynical nihilism and keep it from infecting an otherwise fluffy bit of adventure fiction with angst and grimdark and atrocity-to-be-edgy writing. It also helped to stave off creepers who might’ve been attracted to the more unorthodox uses of handwavium, like the one dude who wandered in and wanted to make Pokegirls a reality in Fenspace.

Unfortunately, the genre directive comes with a problem. By stating that this is not a dystopia a lot of people immediately assumed that this was a utopia and proceeded to either write accordingly or bitch about it. Fenspace does have utopian elements to it; science fiction is often utopian in general, and as guy-who-takes-the-fall-for-everything I add a brand of somewhat Rousseauian faith in the better angels of human nature to the setting. But as I intended it to be, the universe of Fenspace is neither deterministically dystopian nor utopian – it’s a place, as neutral as the real Universe is to human morality. Handwavium is something that exists within that universe, but it isn’t an instrumentality gifted by the Universe to the Fen. Utopia and dystopia aren’t supposed to be hardwired into the fabric of the universe; they’re human constructs built on our perceptions of the world around us, and that’s just as true for the Fen as it is for us.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[robkelk]

Well, I never said where handwavium came from, just that it allows a Spinozan-style "thought influences reality" paradigm to be taken to an extreme. The term "instrumentality" is as good a tag as any for the stuff.

And what I posted bears as much relationship to actual Spinozan philosophy as fanboy-Shinto bears to real-world Shinto, BTW.

(As for Pokegirls, as long as their minds aren't affected (which makes them not Pokegirls, yes), then they're just odd Furries...)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[M Fnord]

Well, I never said where handwavium came from, just that it allows a Spinozan-style "thought influences reality" paradigm to be taken to an extreme. The term "instrumentality" is as good a tag as any for the stuff.

The read I got off your post was that you're conflating the existence of handwavium with the genre directive and through that making assumptions about the general benevolence of the universe. The point I'm trying to make is that handwavium and the genre directive are two completely discrete elements that exist in and for separate spheres of reference. Handwavium, its mysteries and motives exist inside the universe, in a Watsonian continuum. The genre directive on the other hand is strictly a Doylist construct that exists outside the universe, it's a rule for creators, not the creations.

As for handwavium in general, I stand by my previous statements.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Dakota]

(As for Pokegirls, as long as their minds aren't affected (which makes them not Pokegirls, yes), then they're just odd Furries...)

Well knowing the Wave most would be of the Gajinka type with the rare "full anthro" biomod mixed. Gajinka are basically a pokemon take on catgirl/boys and would want nothing to do with Pokegirls.
_______________________________________________________________
Characters
Sabre Fang
Dakota

[Mark Skarr]

I think you’re all beating around the bush. The setting isn’t the problem, but it suffers from the problem.

The genre-directive is only a small part of the problem. It’s not dystopic. That, itself, is not really a problem. A small part of the problem is that most people see it as a polar: If it’s not dystopic, it’s utopic (and vice versa). And, no, it doesn’t have to be either. And, well, as much as you want to disagree, Fenspace is a utopia, but I’ll get to that in a bit. Just because it’s not a dystopia doesn’t mean that exceptionally bad things don’t, and won’t, happen.

However, the actual problem with the Genre-directive is that you have declared that “There are still Big Bads, a shadowy conspiracy or two and plenty of mooks for the heroes to smack around of course, but they are defeatable.” [sic] You make it seem overcoming adversity is not only possible, it’s guaranteed. The white hats will beat the black hats and ride off into the sunset at the end of the day. I’m sorry to say, but, if success is guaranteed, then it is a utopia, and not terribly interesting.

Not all problems can be defeated. Not all problems are adversaries. Some simply are. And, honestly, a sad ending is sometimes more interesting than a happy ending. I’m not saying that “the world sucks, so the stories have to.” I’m saying “Not everyone gets a happy ending.” Sometimes, signor, the bull wins.

The major problem, honestly, is the ultimately altruistic nature of Handwavium. If there was a creator-level understanding of the in-universe reasons for this, it would be less problematic. The problem is that there is only a meta-level reason and it’s not something definable within the universe.

As an external writer/GM looking in from the outside, the rules read like they’re designed to keep people from tearing up your sandbox by forcing them to all wear straightjackets. Instead of allowing for authors to be creative and have their stories accepted or rejected by the community, you put rules in place to prevent people from exploring story ideas because you don’t want to deal with the potential implications.

All right, it’s been a bit: Fenspace is a Space Opera, so it’s, obviously, optimistic—and, in Fenspace’s case, extremely optimistic. The major point of it being a utopia is that millions of unskilled, untrained nerds (seriously, that’s what the majority of the Fen are) are able to survive and thrive in the most hostile of natural environments with no external support or training. Handwavium provides everything they need, including hyper-intelligent AI constructs willing to support them.

Anything the Fen do is successful. And they’re the only people doing it (which, as I’ve read this thread several times was its original purpose discussion). Sure, there are accidents, and sure some bad people get their hands on toys they shouldn’t play with. But, ultimately, as I said above, the white hats will stop the black hats and ride off into the sunset. The Fen have successful created interplanetary nations though none of them have ever had any training at doing so. This is coupled with the fact that they’re, generally, displaying near-psychotic levels of dissociative identity disorder. They have embraced fictional worlds and made them work when there is no reason they should (or, honestly, could).

This focuses the camera right back on Handwavium, and what it is—it wants this to happen. It is encouraging this behavior. If it isn’t, there is no, possible way that the Fen could have survived. Handwavium is creating a Fen-Utopia. That causes the problem that, without knowing Handwavium’s ultimate goal (or even that it has one), creativity is stifled. Especially from a role-playing perspective.

Because, let’s be honest, if an anime convention lifted off into space, they wouldn’t last as long as a keg of beer at a fraternity party.

[M Fnord]

However, the actual problem with the Genre-directive is that you have declared that “There are still Big Bads, a shadowy conspiracy or two and plenty of mooks for the heroes to smack around of course, but they are defeatable.” [sic] You make it seem overcoming adversity is not only possible, it’s guaranteed. The white hats will beat the black hats and ride off into the sunset at the end of the day. I’m sorry to say, but, if success is guaranteed, then it is a utopia, and not terribly interesting.

It's adventure fiction. The good guys triumph in the end, the bad guys either get wrapped up or vanish into the night with a fist-shaking vow of revenge in the next exciting episode, etc. As you note, these things are part and parcel of space opera, and it's been that way since the days of Hugo Gernsback. I don't get why you get your nose out of joint that - holy shit! - Fenspace maintains the genre traditions.

As an external writer/GM looking in from the outside, the rules read like they’re designed to keep people from tearing up your sandbox by forcing them to all wear straightjackets. Instead of allowing for authors to be creative and have their stories accepted or rejected by the community, you put rules in place to prevent people from exploring story ideas because you don’t want to deal with the potential implications.

You're right that the rules exist to keep people from tearing up the sandbox; that's because people keep trying to tear up the sandbox. We like the sandbox, why shouldn't we take steps to protect it from people who think shitting in it is awesome? You're a DM, haven't you ever had to deal with a That Guy who refused to play by the campaign's accepted conventions?

HANDWAVIUM

... Yeah, okay, I don't get it. You've spent a lot of words talking about the inherent altruistic nature of handwavium (which is a reasonable position, more or less) and the mysterious and poorly-defined nature of its possible agenda (which is a more reasonable position) and then you say it stifles creativity.

Why? You never actually give a reason why the combination of altruism and ambiguity stifles creativity, you just say it does and expect us to take that as fact. So give us a reason. Spell it out. Use small words if necessary.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[HRogge]

Mark Skarr, I have two comments...

first, its not that the bad guys hadn't their share of wins too. At one point in Fenspace (after raiding and killing Fens for many months), they nearly managed to WIN... they overextended themselves which lost them the war (otherwise the Fenspace project would have been dead), but its not that it wasn't close. And there are more than enough victims of the war left... or remainders of the former "evil empire".

second, I disagree on your opinion that most Fen are just a pack of unskilled and untrained people. I think you would be quite surprised how many people with scientific or engineering background you will find among Scifi fans. There is a reason why there are not THAT many Fen in orbit, especially in the first years... because only a few of the people with access to Handwavium had the skills to make it up into orbit and be able to stay there.

[Mark Skarr]

I'm heading to work so it'll be a few hours before I can think more indepth on this . . . but this is an overview of my stance.

As for Adventure Fiction the world has come a long way since then. A great deal of the source material for Fen Space even relies upon the fact that good does not always triumph over evil. To insist that it does makes your setting, inherently, a utopia. Utopias are boring.

John Carter of Mars was fascinating. The fact that he wished himself to Mars told us a great deal about his character. But, in Fenspace, anyone can “wish” themselves to Mars. And if anyone can do it. There is no reason that everyone who wants to doesn’t.

Yes, I am a GM (specifically, not a DM. DM’s are, semantically, for D&D, and, I don’t play D&D—it’s too limited and restrictive for my tastes [“NEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRD!”]). And you know what: I don’t make blanket rules that say “you can never do this!” I have enough decency to listen to my players and find out what they want to do and why. The important point to take away is that “I listen to my players.” I have an intelligent discussion with them about what they want to do and, if necessary, why it will not fit within the world. I never make blanket statements unless it is important to the game and then I have the decency to explain why.

And, as a player, I’m willing to accept the answer that “it’ll be clear, later” from my GM. If it does not become clear, in the future, I’ll ask for clarification. I hold my GMs to the same level of integrity I hold myself to.

And if you’re so worried about people telling stories that you may find offensive . . . why even bother making the information commonly available? Why have Gernsbeck-2? You know that people will write and tell stories that you’re not terribly fond of, yet, by making it commonly available, you have to accept that people will accept those stories as fact. All the protesting in the world will do nothing to prevent it.

The simplest way I can explain the problem with handwavium, so you don’t have any trouble with it Mal:

There is no reason to do anything since Handwavium will simply give it to you. That is an oversimplification, but, it’s the fundamental problem.

It’s Deus ex Machina of the highest order. It will give you what you need, even though it may not be what you want. There is no challenge there. The characters haven’t earned anything. At the end of the day you’ve got something amazing and the character has done nothing to get it, and, functionally, has not grown at all. If all a character has to do is rub some goop on themselves and that will solve any problem they’ve come across (live-support Handwavium, anyone?) what is interesting about it?

It can never do anything dangerous. Well, that completely cut off an entire avenue of story-writing.
It is unpredictable . . . so long as it adheres to the “not being dangerous” rules and, at the end of the day, you still get what you’re looking for. Well, that’s nearly insulting.
It cannot be used to make weapons. That’s absurd.

My second biggest problem is that all of the Fen know, not believe, but know, handwavium will never stop working. They know at a level that is incomprehensible that their modified devices will work, fundamentally flawlessly, baring outside interference (and, even then, in some cases). There is no concern that it might stop working. There is no worry about the nature of Handwavium. There is no inherent fear in using something that they know next to nothing about. That’s Mary-Sue level character knowledge, and, it makes the situation . . . disinteresting.

Any, rational, person would want to know, significantly more about this stuff. If someone walked up to you on the street and handed you a pill and said “if you take this, you’ll be able to fly and have super powers!” would you take them serious? Of course not. But, that’s what the Fen have done. They’ve taken the Red Pill, and have nothing but awesomeness to show for it.

@HRogge
When I read the War, it always seemed to be written that the outcome was a foregone conclusion. There wasn’t a mystery. I found the Jihad (in BattleTech) interesting, but, since WizKids had already screwed up (the universe) and told us not only when it ended, but how, there was never any mystery or tension. It was just details. That, and I feel about Devlin Stone the same I feel for Handwavium. It’s an interesting idea, but way to squeaky-clean and has epic-level plot protection and immunity.

As for Sci-Fi fans being of a scientific or engineering background, sure, there are some, but they’re outnumbered by people with no clue by, probably, ten-thousand (or more) to one. And, many of those with the backgrounds aren’t going to be willing to, potentially, commit mass-suicide.

I’m always appalled at the amount of ignorance of basic scientific principle when I go to cons. Sure, you can find people with education, but the vast majority doesn’t have a clue.

[Bob Schroeck]

Okay people, before this goes any further, let me just note that Mark ran his post by me before putting up here, and did so at my encouragement. I think he has some good points, and dismissing them out of hand with "that's not what we wanted" is disingenuous and possibly self-deceptive, because as Mark points out, we have some of what you don't want already. And as I said to him in private mail:

I can't say I disagree with you -- there really ought to be/to have been a few more accidents and tragedies during the early days of Fenspace. We all know the obssessed, obnoxious fan who can't be told anything and can't get along even with others of his fandom (hell, some of us are that fan, more often than we'd like, I'm sure). That guy is far more likly to die from the combination of overconfidence and aggressive ignorance, especially if he insists the real world has to work like his personal quantification of his fandom says. There should be some instances where even all the power and good intentions of handwavium aren't enough to save someone with the right combination of smart and stupid. As long as they're not a "main character" or the point of a depressing little story, I can't see as how that would violate the "non-dystopia" directive; it would, in fact, inject some realism and verisimiltude into the setting.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[M Fnord]

John Carter of Mars was fascinating. The fact that he wished himself to Mars told us a great deal about his character. But, in Fenspace, anyone can “wish” themselves to Mars. And if anyone can do it. There is no reason that everyone who wants to doesn’t.

Your point being... what, precisely? I don't think that anyone here would argue that particular setting element isn't flawed.

Yes, I am a GM (specifically, not a DM. DM’s are, semantically, for D&D, and, I don’t play D&D—it’s too limited and restrictive for my tastes [“NEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRD!”]). And you know what: I don’t make blanket rules that say “you can never do this!” I have enough decency to listen to my players and find out what they want to do and why. The important point to take away is that “I listen to my players.” I have an intelligent discussion with them about what they want to do and, if necessary, why it will not fit within the world. I never make blanket statements unless it is important to the game and then I have the decency to explain why.

And, as a player, I’m willing to accept the answer that “it’ll be clear, later” from my GM. If it does not become clear, in the future, I’ll ask for clarification. I hold my GMs to the same level of integrity I hold myself to.

That Guys are the definition of 'unreasonable players,' people who'll demand their half-drow half-dragon half-kitsune dual-wielding ninja be part of a Call of Cthulhu game, or people who openly attack other party members 'because it's in character.' If you allow that kind of nonsense at the table... well, I'm glad I don't game with you to be honest.

And if you’re so worried about people telling stories that you may find offensive . . . why even bother making the information commonly available? Why have Gernsbeck-2? You know that people will write and tell stories that you’re not terribly fond of, yet, by making it commonly available, you have to accept that people will accept those stories as fact. All the protesting in the world will do nothing to prevent it.

Why not? Shit, we all have dozens of projects that never see the light of day. We might as well put it out there and see if somebody likes it. Instead of endlessly debating it here we can boost the signal and see where people take it. I like the idea that even our silly little adventure stories can inspire somebody, even if it's just "well I can write better than those jackoffs."

My problem isn't when people take the established Fenspace material and do something questionable with it. I can't stop that any more than I can stop the tide, and any attempt to do that would make me an even bigger asshole than I already am. So if you really want to use Fenspace in your misogynistic furry-rape fantasy game I can't actually stop you.

But.

My tolerance for those kinds of shenanigans stops when it comes here. That's it. Finito. As long as I have any authority in and over Fenspace these sorts of things will not be welcome. Not in this forum, not in the wiki, not in the IRC. If that makes me a tyrant and a terrible person then I'm okay with that.

The simplest way I can explain the problem with handwavium, so you don’t have any trouble with it Mal:

Yeah you know I was actually going to discuss this since it's kind of interesting, but to hell with it. You've made it clear that you dislike the precepts of the setting, you dislike most of the actual setting elements and you absolutely dislike the management. In fact I'm increasingly confused as to why you're even here in the first place.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[robkelk]

The simplest way I can explain the problem with handwavium, so you don’t have any trouble with it Mal:

There is no reason to do anything since Handwavium will simply give it to you. That is an oversimplification, but, it’s the fundamental problem.

It's too much of an oversimplification. Handwavium doesn't do anything on its own; it lets people do things. (That's why I called it an "instrumentality" rather than a "deus ex machina.") There are scientific principles in play that we don't understand, and, as I said earlier, one of those sciences is psychology - a science that is still very much in its infancy compared to most other sciences.

My second biggest problem is that all of the Fen know, not believe, but know, handwavium will never stop working. They know at a level that is incomprehensible that their modified devices will work, fundamentally flawlessly, baring outside interference (and, even then, in some cases). There is no concern that it might stop working.

People know that the sky is blue and the Sun will always shine, despite all the stormy days they've lived through and novas they've heard about. It's basic human nature: if something exists in a particular way, people think it will always exist in that particular way.

(Excepting a few people who ask "why," of course. But there are scientists in the setting.)

And there are some characters who do worry about handwavium no longer working. Look at how much "hardtech" is used by my primary character, Noah Scott, for example - he doesn't announce this to all and sundry, but it's between the lines in the description of his space station.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Mark Skarr]

After further discussion with Bob, I’m perfectly happy to
simply wash my hands of Fenspace and be done with it.

 

I’ll see what I can do to finish the Grover’s Corners pictures
for Bob, then, I’ll just back off.

[M Fnord]

And on that note, let's say goodnight, Gracie.

Those who want to continue to discuss the philosophical implications of handwavium, or our failings as writers/editors, may do so in a new thread.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

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