[RFC] Universal Theory of Magic

[Ace Dreamer]

Bob Schroeck's UTM post: http://drunkardswalkforums.yuku.com/sre ... n-Fenspace
M Fnord's Magic post: http://drunkardswalkforums.yuku.com/sre ... n-Fenspace
Bonewits:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Bonewits
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authentic_Thaumaturgy
Seeing as the various traditions of magic use in Fenspace will be built on top of a UTM, rather than the more common deducing a UTM from traditions, I think it's worth considering what might be in the UTM.
We don't have any magic, as authors (or if we do, we aren't admitting it), so the list of what might be usable likely isn't based on practical experience. But, we should be able to use things like Bonewits studies of 'real world' magic, on a meta level, to say a few things.

All the following is META author stuff - you aren't allowed to tell it to your characters. [grin]

We now know, from what Mal has said, that there is a field we're calling 'mana' in the rough area of the Solar System. We don't know (yet) if this field extends far outside the Solar System, we don't know if it exists in other star systems. This field is what minds interact with to generate 'magical effects', and it appears some highly specialised machinery can also interact with mana.
Magical effects are changes that do not fit in with previously known physical laws, or the previously known fields, like gravity, electro-magnetism, strong nuclear and weak nuclear forces. However, they might mimic these, in some cases.
There appears to be a genetic basis to human minds manipulating mana, which is more than a binary "can/can't" switch. It's not yet clear whether a handwavium biomod can provide 'magical ability' (it seems likely) in someone who previously didn't have it. This genetic basis is not something initially understood (except by Noah, etc).
The universe doesn't have any known mechanism to allow physical laws to be altered on a massive scale (such as an Amberite could do with a Shadow). So, the amount of mana that can be manipulated seems to translate into the scale of magical effect that can be produced. More subtle uses of mana may produce more drastic effects for less mana 'spent', but you can't have an ultra-master mage who just turns off the gravity of, say, Earth with a subtle spell. A planetoid maybe, a few kilometers across, not a whole planet.
Two basic magical principles are 'similarity' and 'contagion'.
Stated simply, 'similar things produce similar results' (e.g. pour water on the ground to create rain), and 'things once in contact remain connected' (e.g. having someone's personal possessions means you've a 'handle' to affect them).
Beyond these two principles, just about everything else is down to the tradition you follow. Names and geometry might be vital to one tradition, irrelevant to others (except, maybe, the contagion effect of a name). All spells might need to be done using clearly spoken Enochian, in another tradition the intent behind the words might be the important thing.
About the only thing you can guarantee is that all traditions will be different. And, in many cases 'superior' to all the other 'incomplete' traditions.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_%28paranormal%29
I'd strongly recommend reading Bonewits 'Real Magic' if you're interested in this area:
http:////ws-na.amazon-adsystem.com/widge...indow=true
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[robkelk]

I know you (appear to) like Bonewits, but I found his work to be overly-dry and boring... Worse, he seems to be under the impression that his theory of magic actually works.

(Yes, I know he has "a degree in magic." Some people have degrees in Alice in Wonderland - that doesn't make that work any less fictional, either.)

Can we cite somebody else for this, please? (Maybe Hite?)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Ace Dreamer]

I would be very interested in any authors which explore meta-magic, as you might guess it is a long-term interest of mine. The mystery and 'occult' element associated with a lot of books on magic ('real world', fantasy literature, or RPG) tends to annoy me, as I'm looking for the 'nuts and bolts', the underlying mechanics from which you can do "magical engineering".

If that is Kenneth Hite, of GURPS Cabal fame, I'm afraid I found him leaning a bit too much towards a "World of Darkness" perspective. A bit too much ritual and hermeticism, not enough generality, and non-flashy uses of magic. However, I might be misjudging this, as I've only skimmed and don't own a copy.

Yes, Bonewits can be dry in places, but in "Real Magic" he approaches the problem with an intellectual rigor that I've seen in almost no "real world" occult books. The only comparable author that I'm familiar with is Colin Wilson, "The Occult":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Occult:_A_History

though his work is much more heavy on mythology, with overtones of the 'new existentialism' (and 'peak experiences') that Wilson has written about for decades.

The big problem with almost all magic systems that I've seen written-up is that they drag-in their own cosmology, their own world view (and therefore tradition), and this includes almost everything I've seen for RPG.

The only exception I'm familiar with is using the "Hero System" meta rules to do points-based design of magic, where you ideally start with a concept, then implement it using the mechanics of Powers, Advantages and Limitations. That means you use whatever tradition you agree with the Referee can work in the world or setting of your game. Looked at carefully, the mechanics is disconnected from the actual magic, it's just a means to implement something which is (hopefully) then playable; the magic is the 'special effects'.

I'd not mentioned Hero System in this context because the core rule books (I use version 4 or 5) are just that, mechanics, and aren't, I think, suitable for either a UTM, or traditions.

Just because Bonewits actually believes in his theory of magic doesn't mean that his stuff isn't useful.

I certainly wouldn't recommend a RPG based on a strict use of his "Authentic Thaumatergy", the RPG version of "Real Magic" - the hour-long casting of newly developed rituals could put a crimp on a lot of gaming. But he makes it clear which bits of magical logic can be treated as optional, and not as part of an author worldview that you need to buy into to read his work.
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[robkelk]

Yes, it is Kenneth Hite.

(And I like "non-flashy"... although I admit "flashy" has its place in stories as well.)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Dartz]

Flashy tends to be bad on confined and pressurised space, with thin tin walls. Someone thinking they want to subdue an enemy with the pink beam O' doom and forgetting that there's vacuum on the other side of the wall behind the unfortunate enemy, and accidentally kills everyone in the compartment in the process.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Rakhasa]

But... but... Beam o'Doom!!! Why would anyone spend years reading musty spellbooks if you cannot cast Dragon Slave on anyone who irritates you? And now we have to start worring about vaccum and structural integrity? OH DEAR WASHU WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME SO????

[Ace Dreamer]

I've been consulting a RPG friend whose a lot more of a GURPS expert than I am, and I think I'm a bit clearer on a few points.

We're not really talking about a Universal Theory of Magic, unless 'Universal' in this context refers to the Fenspace universe.

We're really talking about the underlying meta magic from which people implement traditions.

The meta magic might well not be the same in a different universe, from which travelers might come. A WW/ST "World of Darkness" setting (Mage: The Ascension) would be a good example, where the meta magic is based on consensus reality, as opposed to the Fenspace setting which has underlying physical laws, that no amount of (non-magical) disbelief in is going to change. An Amberite 'multiverse' setting of Amber-Shadows-Chaos would be another good example of one with different meta magic. Any setting where there were creation gods, and gods still take an interest in the world, is likely to have a different meta magic.

What does this mean in practical terms?

Mal has made it clear that mana is relevant, though this is mana describing the local structure of reality on which magic depends, as opposed to mana as a power source, with magic needing to be fueled by mana (often 'mana points' in RPGs). This is one reason I'd recommend avoiding terms like 'synthetic mana'. Suddenly finding the local mana level has fluctuated in the middle of you trying to do something magical could be... unhealthy, and possibly fatal. That being a risk is one way we could interpret the current situation in Fenspace.

With the right technology, that might be managable. Protective ritual circles that ensure the mana level within them doesn't change until the circle is broken might suit ritual magicians. A 'mana stabalisation grid' might suit technomages. Fast spells or magical gadgets to stabalise, or at least predict, the local 'mana weather' might be wise to invest in. A 'mana umbrella' that protects you from moderate mana weather changes is the minimum worth thinking about.

Assuming GURPS is looked to for magical mechanics, seeing as 'mana level' as described is a GURPS mechanic, there are a number of things worth thinking about. GURPS magic is typically driven by Intelligence and Magical Aptitude. A gadget that would boost intelligence, at least for magical purposes, say to 12 (useless to those already with 12+) might be very popular; a 'Mage Amplifier'. Magical Aptitude is probably connected with your genetic magical talent, and the amount of training you've had. If something like the previously mentioned 'Mage Crown' exists:

http://drunkardswalkforums.yuku.com/sre ... n-Fenspace

then that might provide a Magical Aptitude of 2, given enough training to be able to drive the thing properly. If someone has no Magical Aptitude at all (no genes giving magical ability) that would be all they could get. Someone with 'normal' magical talent might be able to eventually push that value up higher, but I'd expect very long training, unless they had previously trained up to 2, and even then it wont be easy. Some 'natural' magic talents might be able to get more or less out of a Mage Crown - it depends.

The reason that Magical Aptitude 2, and Intelligence 12, is mentioned is that (I'm told) that is the minimum needed to make spells 'easy' to learn, if you follow a tradition of learned spells, as opposed to improvised ones, or purely ritual magic. Better values will obviously make you a better mage.

Basic GURPS magic seems to be driven by either your personal energy (Fatigue), an external energy store, or a combination of the two. In a Fenspace setting technomagic might allow an external generator (think multiple megawatts) to either replenish used personal energy, use the mage as a conduit for energy (can we say 'fuse'?), or drive an external magical amplifier that greatly increases the power of the magic energy template that the mage supplies. There are also purely magic methods, like 'power stones' (self-recharging enchanted gemstones), or wizard staffs (like the TP Discworld ones) which can hold massive energy reserves. I'm sure that research into using 'waved Li-ion batteries, instead of a generator, would be considered.

All of the above is tradition-free, with the exception of traditions that can't work with technomagic. These traditions might risk being labelled 'Luddite'.

Hopefully some of the above might give people some ideas for stories, because, after all, that is basically what we're about here! [grin]
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[HRogge]

If Mana is a fifth force besides Strong/Weak force, Electromagnetism and Gravity, wouldn't spellcasting be the process to use some of this energy, convert/transform/shift it somehow and use it affect the other four forces and matter?

So "unlimited spellcasting because of fusion reactor" might not work unless you can transform electrical energy into Mana.

[Rakhasa]

Lighning storms helping or powering magic and weirdness somehow is well entrenched into myth -form the traditional "dark and stormy night" to Frankestein, so I think we shoudl allow it.

But, of course, "it is possible" it not eh same as "it is easy" or, for that matter, "it is power-efficient"

Also, for the unstable mana level, wich as far as Infinity Patrol knows is unique to fenspace, I have one possible explanation: We, unlike either fen of Infinity Patrol agenta, are aware that Magic was suddenly "kickstarted" a few years ago. While this probably is not unique, Infinity only has a small selection of magical worlds, so it is prefectly possbile that they have never encounreted this phenomenon, much less be able to recognize it. Fen have only one world to study, and it was not magical before

So what if the randmomnes is just the result of mana flows rushing to fill a void, like water after a breaking dam -it will be chaotic for years (decades, centuries, who knows? whatever the plot needs) but eventually it will settle down to a more traditional setting.

It is interesting because it means the process may eventually be studied, and since fen already are aware of one fandom were magic comes and goes (Shadowrun) they may even develop a working explanation. This explanation may be wrong in the underlining premise ("the force we call "magic" was real six thousand years ago, and then went into a natural null period"), but it will be an explanation able to fill the known facts, which is enough for settign the bases of scientific study (until magcal science gets engood enough for check for possible flaws)

[Ace Dreamer]

If you can transform magical energy into electricity, it seems very likely you can transform electricity into magical energy.
If you use the off-the-shelf GURPS magic for the transformation, multiple megawatts to the equivalent of the (magical) energy that a human body can provide doesn't sound like a very efficient conversion process.
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[Dartz]

There is of course, the Yodawatt. Equivelant to about 19kW.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Rakhasa]

If you can transform magical energy into electricity, it seems very likely you can transform electricity into magical energy.
If you use the off-the-shelf GURPS magic for the transformation, multiple megawatts to the equivalent of the (magical) energy that a human body can provide doesn't sound like a very efficient conversion process.

  
But you cannot always afford efficiency. That is even more true in Fenspace, wich does not have a stable mana level. An "emergency" reactor for a few dozen Megawatts may be wasteful, but it will also be better that suddenly losing the White Tower wards in an unexpected Low Mana wave just when the neoBoskonians are attacking.

[HRogge]

Making it possible but difficult opens up a lot of ways to use it in stories to keep the tension (energy will be out soon, hurry up!)

[Ace Dreamer]

Mana disruption grenades might be popular with some?
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[robkelk]

... We're not really talking about a Universal Theory of Magic, unless 'Universal' in this context refers to the Fenspace universe.

We're really talking about the underlying meta magic from which people implement traditions. ...

Oh.

I thought you were talking about the paradigm your characters were going to operate under.

For something this big, I refer you to http://drunkardswalkforums.yuku.com/sre ... n-Fenspace]this Word of Mod:

On Rules in a Meta Direction: I don’t want to tie Fen magic down with a lot of hard and fast guidelines, because I know that if I do agree to hard lines they’ll a) be in the wrong direction, b) get rules-lawyered to uselessness, c) eventually become obsolete, d) spark dozens of fun-killing arguments or e) all of the above. If necessary, I’ll make summary judgements, or I’ll delegate summary judgement duties to somebody I trust.

--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[HRogge]

It might be a good idea to handle the "Universal Theory of Magic" in the wiki similar to the speech Haruhi Suzumiya at Serenity Con.

Describe that its the "basic facts" and that everyone built on it for the first decades... but do not state the rules anywhere unless it becomes absolutely necessary.

That should work fine with Mal's statement.

[Dartz]

Definitely...

Although I was thinking of something called 'Moonlight Butterfly' that disables all nearby manatech while operating by specifically disrupting the links between it and the manafield, forcing everyone to fight off scratch once more. It's effect on Mages.... not sure. Then you have an arms race beginning between MCM and MCCM and the like. It'd ruin things for a lot of mages who'd have to learn conventional tactics.

OTOH, manafield grenades and mines. A small barrier generator. An explosive device. An unfortunate victim. You get where this is going.

Frigga won't be a magic developer as such.... they'll be users, (with some 'software' development on existing devices) And most likely early adopters given that their official public business relies on providing competent and relevant combat instruction. They're going to have to develop techniques on handling and defending against the earliest manatech weaponry (Stun beams and barrier shields most likely). The most distinctive aspect of Friggan Manatech Combat instruction is that it will always be weighted towards using technomagical elements as an augmentation of conventional capabilities rather than as capabilities in their own right.

It never really goes all the way towards teaching full-on pure magic-on-magic combat, and generally assumes that you're carrying a conventional weapon and are willing to engineer an opportunity to use it. (Gun, Knife, Sword).

There won't be much in the way of advanced techniques available (What with most Mages not being old enough for combat for another 18 years or so, and not being good enough to instruct for another 5 at least), but one thing that they'll make a specific point of doing is hiring a truly capable mage at the earliest possible opportunity, and working up ways that would enable conventional forces to defend themselves against magical attack without a mage as backup.

The alternative being of course, to slide into irrelevance like steam engine builders. Or develop 'Moonlight Butterfly'
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Ace Dreamer]

... We're not really talking about a Universal Theory of Magic, unless 'Universal' in this context refers to the Fenspace universe.

We're really talking about the underlying meta magic from which people implement traditions. ...

Oh.

I thought you were talking about the paradigm your characters were going to operate under.

For something this big, I refer you to this Word of Mod:

On Rules in a Meta Direction: I don’t want to tie Fen magic down with a lot of hard and fast guidelines, because I know that if I do agree to hard lines they’ll a) be in the wrong direction, b) get rules-lawyered to uselessness, c) eventually become obsolete, d) spark dozens of fun-killing arguments or e) all of the above. If necessary, I’ll make summary judgements, or I’ll delegate summary judgement duties to somebody I trust.

I was trying to see the general outlines of the UTM.  Not trying to create 'hard and fast guidelines', more get some ideas for designing the sort of mage tech that engineering characters might want to construct.  I think it is too early (for me, anyway) to attempt any real mage characters, that would fit in the general continuity.
So, trying to think about things in as open a way as possible, then, think about some traditions or paradigms that might be fun to write stories about.
Of course, I'll probably make some really stupid mistakes along the way. [grin]
I've also got characters who will take a serious interest in the UTM and meta-magic.  Could I be talking about Brains?  No... [grin]
Edit: So, poke the problem with a stick, and see if it bites the end of the stick off. [grin]
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[Ace Dreamer]

OK. If I'm trying to (in character) build a tradition for a techno-magical artificer (one who say, finds weapons a mostly boring subject) then the obvious thing to do is ask -

What do I want from the magic?

You've already got handwavium, which will do an awful lot of things, almost only limited by your imagination. But, only 'almost'.

Handwavium appears to conserve mass, so a way to shapeshift that doesn't do that might be fun. Then there is the old favourite "You're a frog" spell. Or, if really annoyed, "You're a head in a jar".

Handwavium seems limited to physical 4d space-time, plus whatever FTL requires, so access to other dimensionality, like "sub space", or "hammer space" could be attractive. This is ignoring things like the ethereal, astral, or elemental planes, or the 'spirit world'. Thinking about 'World Gates' is a definite possibility.

Handwavium doesn't appear to allow (near) instantaneous movement without going through the intervening space. While it poses horrible security problems, teleportation is so, so, attractive...

There don't seem to be any psionics in Fenspace. Some sorts of magic allow semi-psionic effects, like telepathy, telekinesis, clairvoyance - magical skrying seems to be very like clairvoyance with props, for example. Semi-psionic gadgets could be fun...

There'll be an excellent market for who can build and sell the first real "sonic screwdriver"...

How can magic help in engineering and (small-scale) construction?

Straight permanent transmutation of elements is probably best avoided - handwavium comes close enough to that. Making a precise functional copy of an existing machine (even if it wont last that long), so you've one to take to bits would be good. Being able to examine the internals of something without risking wrecking it, by dismantling - good for bomb disposal? Being able to perceive, and maybe take snap-shots, of the flows of energy through a working device. Having a way to allow others to also perceive these, making a recording of what you see.

Most of the above is "stream of consciousness" stuff, that an engineer who knows about fantasy literature, and maybe RPGs, could run through in their head when thinking about getting involved with magic. Then there might be thoughts about summoning robots, or construction equipment, up to an entire workshop with all support resources (power, water, air...).
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[Ace Dreamer]

How about "Forge Magic" as a tradition?

Magic ends up in magical objects by working on them, thinking about them, working and reworking them until they're 'right'.

Magic can be used via 'tinkered together' objects, but these are 'lash-up', 'duck taped', and will only work a few times or for a while, without the job being done properly. Lash-ups can be very useful to start research, though.

Research and understanding is critical, the better something is understood, the better it can be made to work. Trying to do something based on guesswork might work once, but it will go really badly wrong if you rely on it, even if it worked perfectly first time.

Some might refer to this as the "traditional dwarwen engineering" approach.
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind