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Quote:Think about this:
I have, and your scenario is essentially a prelude to a War on Fen. Which honestly I don't think any of us want. Am I wrong?
Quote:Religious fundamentalism as a political force in the USA: Fans of Heinlein's "Future History" will already be aware of Nehemiah Scudder. The link shows two ways that having such a person gaining some real power could go - I think both are extreme and unlikely to happen exactly as described. However, Fenspace has gone with the "Libertarian counter-reaction" option.
In truth I suspect that Nehemiah Scudder would have a better track record than any of us would be comfortable with in Fenspace. OTOH I don't really see a libertarian counter-reaction (or Libertarian counter-reaction for that matter) happening here. What the OP establishes is more or less a gradual shift in views over a number of years. If anything it's probably a little too fast, especially on biomods and AI acceptance/rights. But I suppose that taking another 20 years for folks to say hello to a catgirl in broad daylight in the US a little too gradualist for our worldbuilding. Ah well, maybe in the next revision.
Quote:I'm expecting that Port Luna will eventually turn into Fenspace's "embassy town;" I already picture the USCG administering only Tranquility Base and a civilian government associated with the Convention running the rest of the city.
It never got out of head-notes, but I had Port Luna sketched out as, well, the big US town in Fenspace. Sort of an independent territory like Guam.
Quote:i would hate to see this place die off as it became a "who's got the bigger badder ship wankfest"
Of course, this is why you want your character to have the US Navy give him an amphibious assault ship.
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08-27-2013, 03:07 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-05-2017, 01:39 PM by Bob Schroeck.)
M Fnord Wrote:Quote:Think about this:
I have, and your scenario is essentially a prelude to a War on Fen. Which honestly I don't think any of us want. Am I wrong? As far as I'm concerned, the Boskone War is enough war for the setting.
M Fnord Wrote:Quote:I'm expecting that Port Luna will eventually turn into Fenspace's "embassy town;" I already picture the USCG administering only Tranquility Base and a civilian government associated with the Convention running the rest of the city.
It never got out of head-notes, but I had Port Luna sketched out as, well, the big US town in Fenspace. Sort of an independent territory like Guam. If folks would prefer that, then we can move the Convention Authority office to Kandor or Moonbase Alpha. It hasn't actually appeared in a story yet...
(As for having a permanent office: as I mentioned elsewhere, some countries insist on sending diplomatic mail to a real address, rather than "General Delivery, Stellvia." Even Worldcon has a permanent address in Cambridge, MA, and a permanent website. And the master records of decisions have to be kept somewhere... especially considering that they're binding on all Fen in the Convention.)
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Well, I'm flexible. The idea never got out of my head in anything resembling a coherent fashion after all, so there's no reason we need to be beholden to it.
As for a permanent office for the Convention, I really ought to work out a design/timeline for Arisia Station at some point...
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery
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Hmm... all this talking about "US Coast Guards" triggered an idea.
I wonder if there could be a collaboration between Fen organizations like the S.S.A.M. and Earth ones like the DGzRS ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Mar ... ue_Service).
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There are probably enough Thunderbirds fen to put together an International Rescue organization...
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International Rescue has been around for YEARS at this point. They're mentioned in various places...
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Yep - the only permanent presence at L1 is Thunderbird 5, for example.
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Cobalt Greywalker Wrote:International Rescue has been around for YEARS at this point. They're mentioned in various places...
A quick check on the wiki only mentioned them in a single story.
robkelk Wrote:Yep - the only permanent presence at L1 is Thunderbird 5, for example. Wiki says Thunderbird 5 is a joined thing between Senshi's and Blue Blazers... maybe a good opportunity to write something down about Thunderbird 5. Have to think more about this.
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So... did the OP's timeline extensions ever get implemented on the Wiki?
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Well, given that the right is currently self-destructing even as we speak, we might need to rethink how the US keeps going. Because from the looks of it, the new answer is either that the US self-destructs and defaults, rendering the danes mostly powerless (scary possible, explains stuff like some of their big ships in mothballs getting sold off), or they swerve so far left that the soviet union sheds a tear in its grave as people have enough.
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Or the USA continues to be right-of-centre compared to the rest of the G8, or the USA comes into line with the rest of the G8 with regard to social policies, or...
But none of that is happening in Fenspace - that universe diverged from ours in 2007.
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Quote:But none of that is happening in Fenspace - that universe diverged from ours in 2007.
Exactly. Hell, Obama isn't even President in Fenspace, he's still a Senator.
The President responsible for most of the first eight years of that timeline is Rudy Giuliani.
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In reply to the "it's a little bit fast" comment: My take on some things is that Giuliani -knows- that the initial reaction was an over-reaction, but it was necessary (in his mind) to maintain national stability. Instead of repealing. however, he is gradually loosening things as stuff is proven and accepted in the public eye as "safe".A lot of the early licenses went to people who were just using it to make impossible-tools-to-make-tools, keeping it in isolation from the manufacturing process, with certifiably pure results like raw metal or electricity. Later on things loosen up a bit more, like the water filters. His successor... who knows?
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As Mal is fond of saying, actions have consequences.
And, the US is most definiately not centrist, but hard, hard right. Why? Because of the devil's deals that Regan made during his time in office with the fundamentalist right. And 2001, and 2008, and the times in between.
Handwavium can't change those events. 2008 was goig to happen no matter what, because Bush got distracted by 9/11. The Tea party was born of that, and the government response. Aka: The guys who think that defaulting would be the best thing to ever happen to the US. Nothing has changed enough to stop that. If anything, the 10-30 milliom who got the hell out of the US and other countries removed a pretty major counterbalance to the hard rightists who toom over the republicans here.
A lot of fen would be the ones who helped with balancing that out. With them gone, their absence lets the Tea Party and others pull even harder right, likely leading to the government willingly defaulting. That wouldn't break the US up, but we would be looming at its power projection utterly gutted in the wake of that, and economic collapse within the year. Ahich would prevent the US from interfering, and with the near embargo on Fenspace business in the US, it wouldn't recover nearly as fast as the UK and its commonwealth, nor several other countries that would do business. And it lets the fen put the US over a barrel and bring it back to an actual centrist or hard left position.
As Mal is fond of saying, actions have consequences.
And, the US is most definiately not centrist, but hard, hard right. Why? Because of the devil's deals that Regan made during his time in office with the fundamentalist right. And 2001, and 2008, and the times in between.
Handwavium can't change those events. 2008 was goig to happen no matter what, because Bush got distracted by 9/11. The Tea party was born of that, and the government response. Aka: The guys who think that defaulting would be the best thing to ever happen to the US. Nothing has changed enough to stop that. If anything, the 10-30 milliom who got the hell out of the US and other countries removed a pretty major counterbalance to the hard rightists who toom over the republicans here.
A lot of fen would be the ones who helped with balancing that out. With them gone, their absence lets the Tea Party and others pull even harder right, likely leading to the government willingly defaulting. That wouldn't break the US up, but we would be looming at its power projection utterly gutted in the wake of that, and economic collapse within the year. Ahich would prevent the US from interfering, and with the near embargo on Fenspace business in the US, it wouldn't recover nearly as fast as the UK and its commonwealth, nor several other countries that would do business. And it lets the fen put the US over a barrel and bring it back to an actual centrist or hard left position.
The EU is also slowly opening up more and more through Season 2... so even if the US stays "right-wing/tea-party-insanity", it will not affect all of Earth that much.
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Richardson, you clearly have no clue what you are saying.
It is established by previous timeline work that 2008 happened, but the recession it caused was smoothed out to a great degree by advances provided by 'wavetech, exports to the Fen, and other economic side-effects of the butterfly already in the air. By 2012 the economy is already recovering and 2016 sees a genuinely centrist Democrat elected who has no need to try to gut the economy in order to "save" it.
Repeat after Mal: "FENSPACE IS NOT A DYSTOPIA."
Bob, please lock this thread.
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Do you want to salvage the timeline you'd compiled, or should we just let that drop as well?
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...Never a dull moment.
Quote:The President responsible for most of the first eight years of that timeline is Rudy Giuliani.
Four years. Rudolph Giuliani is ousted in 2012 after four years of government that makes the combined administrations of Buchanan, Grant, Harding and Bush II look pretty good in retrospect. He's replaced by Democrat-To-Be-Named-Later (Clinton, Obama or Biden most likely) who goes on to two terms. 2020 elections are based less on previous insanity, and I don't have a clear view of that just yet.
Quote:A lot of fen would be the ones who helped with balancing that out. With them gone, their absence lets the Tea Party and others pull even harder right, likely leading to the government willingly defaulting.
Maybe. Maybe not. The financial clusterfuck of the 2000's still happens, and is possibly worse under the Giuliani administration, but Rudy's presidency would do a capital job of discrediting that nonsense, bringing things back to a certain level of sanity.
Quote:Bob, please lock this thread.
Nah, this is interesting.
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Agreed, this is going somewhere.
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...and my shoes began to squeak.
Fenspace not a dystopia? Could have fooled me, what with the unaccountable paramilitary organization with 'troubleshooters' all but given a liscense to kill, the nasty crime gangs still out there, the US somehow being blocked from space by the fen who are doing their best to keep them down along almost all the rest of earth's nations. Really could fool me.
Fenspace was supposed to be about 'the little guy can make a difference, and rise to power' as much as 'dreams came true'. Only I'm not seeing much of either after the Boskone War. A group of guys working a huge project out in the Oort cloud so that it's a pleasant surprise to fenspace? Nope, Great Justice would sabatoge them and prevent it from happening, I'm told. Trying to tie the US into fen politics in order to keep them from doing something incredibly stupid that would be actual reaction instead of sticking their fingers in their ears like everyone seems to think they would? War on Fenspace!
That's not exactly utopian, there.
The US just sitting on the sidelines and doing nothing is a giant plothole. It makes no sense in-universe. Either it has to be rendered unable to interfer, or we need to show it getting involved for better (fen carefully guiding it Up, tying it up with a series of treaties to keep it pacified), or worse (uncontrolled reaction to Boskone War, troublemaker and possible war).
And, the US suffering a massive economic collapse and falling from superpower status would be a good thing, from a storytelling point of view. One, you can open up many of the 'pressured by the US' states all the way for handwavium schenanigans. After all, what is it going to do? Not trade with them?
Two, it gives an excuse for a dane diaspora storyline. People hear it's going to get better, they can see that it slowly is. But with them already having suffered through four or more bad years, they're tired of waiting. They look everywhere, and then the lure of handwavium beckons. So Up they come. Space, its economy almost untouched by the Default Disaster, offered hope of that better tomorrow they crave.
The status quo is even more shook up. The post-war complacency falters as there is suddenly Competition. Kandor, Helium, the Crystal Cities, the Browncoats and Belters, Stelliva, the Rockhounss, everybosy is suddenly feeling the pressure as a flood of danes slowly crests the dike of weird and dangerous the fen built up. It would be the big reason the fen are exploding outwards in S2. We already have things like the housing crisis on Mars and the new stations popping up like weeds in the Jupiter Trojans, and stuff like the argentian rancher with the Island station.
Fenspace is back to being the western boom town it was before season one, the scars of the war fading as dane spacers flood out.
And, it sets up to reset the fen/US relations by 2020, ending that sillyness.
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Richardson, we've already established that what you're looking for isn't happening.
The US is not "being kept down by the Fenspace Man(tm)", nor is it shouldering the fen aside to take over everything in sight. It is a part of the story set down from the beginning that the Earthside governments simply do not see it as a major issue, and are focussed mostly on planet-side issues. The "third-world USA" you and Obaka are wishing for simply isn't going to happen.
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They're probably around in a subtle way.... The best way to have an influence is to put money into a faction that's generally either got some influence, or has ideals that're otherwise pro-American. There won't really be B-52's drifting around - unless someone nabs one from a boneyard. (And names it the Love Shack). Financial support and cheap access to almost-new military hardware - y'know, the usual way nation states make their presence felt. And because equipping the US Military to handle both land and sea and air and space conflict will add a new dimension to a budget half the government wants to reduce, not to mention the inter-service conflict as navy, air-force, army and marines argue over who has 'jurisdiction' over space with each service having its own program to give itself an independant capability to go 'up'.
It's cheaper and easier to just build up a pool of allies rather than put down a full-blown base and develop all new hardware.
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Quote:Fenspace not a dystopia? Could have fooled me, what with the unaccountable paramilitary organization with 'troubleshooters' all but given a liscense to kill, the nasty crime gangs still out there, the US somehow being blocked from space by the fen who are doing their best to keep them down along almost all the rest of earth's nations. Really could fool me.
I'm kind of impressed at the reading here. I mean, it's wrong and particularly mean-spirited but it's impressive nonetheless.
Fenspace is not a dystopia. I've said that time and time again and it's enshrined in the rules because some people have a tendency to drive the grimderp tank into the ground when confronted with new concepts. But at the same time it's not a utopia either. It might become one in the distant crystals-and-toga future of the setting, but right now it's not one.
A utopia doesn't need an international law-enforcement agency to maintain peace and slap down criminals. A utopia doesn't have criminal gangs in the first place! A utopia doesn't have a social-political tendency towards xenophobia, exceptionalism and apathy keeping nations from grabbing at the brass ring either.
But that's what we have here. Fenspace as a setting is neither dystopic nor utopic, its a place. Certainly it's a more optimistic place than many, it's not broken like so many damaged futures out there, but it's still just a place.
Quote:A group of guys working a huge project out in the Oort cloud so that it's a pleasant surprise to fenspace? Nope, Great Justice would sabatoge them and prevent it from happening, I'm told.
Are you still on about that? To clarify things, stopping for flowers for your wife on the way home from work is a pleasant surprise. Building a giant fuck-you warship in the Oort Cloud is Doctor Doom material.
Quote:And, the US suffering a massive economic collapse and falling from superpower status would be a good thing, from a storytelling point of view.
Actions have consequences. The problem with the US having a major economic collapse is that the US economy is intricately tied into the global economy. Nobody knows exactly what a default would do - since nobody until this Congress has been this pure stupid to push that little red button - but every independent analysis suggests that it would be bad for everybody. So you're not talking about crashing America with a default, you're talking about crashing the EU (moreso), China, Japan, India, Australia, Africa... and the Fen are not so insulated from the global economy that they could ride it out, either.
This is bad. This is really, really bad. So no, a default situation would, narratively, be a trip to Dystopia Town.
ECSNorway Wrote:Obaka ![[Image: yellowcard.jpg]](http://www.amplify-interactive.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/yellowcard.jpg)
Do not do this again. Keep your cutsey political insults in the Politics forum, if you must. If you cannot talk like a halfway mature individual then you will be asked to leave.
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richardson Wrote:The status quo is even more shook up. The post-war complacency falters as there is suddenly Competition. Kandor, Helium, the Crystal Cities, the Browncoats and Belters, Stelliva, the Rockhounss, everybosy is suddenly feeling the pressure as a flood of danes slowly crests the dike of weird and dangerous the fen built up. It would be the big reason the fen are exploding outwards in S2. We already have things like the housing crisis on Mars and the new stations popping up like weeds in the Jupiter Trojans, and stuff like the argentian rancher with the Island station. I suppose this explains why StellviaCorp headquarters is staying exactly where it's been since the station was built in L5, and expanding operations to triple their physical presence in interplanetary space, and starting to make partnerships with small businesses on Earth that really need the money... Oh, wait - StellviaCorp is doing all of this, but not because they're feeling any heat from competition. They don't have any major competition in their core businesses. They're becoming a big company, is all.
Some Fen - not all, just some - are "exploding outwards in S2" because they're getting away from the reminders of the Boskone War, or because There's Stuff Out There Nobody's Seen Before And They Can Be The First, or because their friends are going and they don't want to be left behind. (Nobody ever said the reasons all had to be good ones.) There's still a metric shitload of empty space in the Sol system for people who want freedom from the governance and protection of the 'Danelaw or the Convention.
As for that Argentinian rancher, he fits nicely into a hole that's been in the setting for years. Somebody's been supplying the Renfaire Fen in the Main Belt with red meat since before the Boskone War - now we know who that "somebody" is. This is an example of a story element that fits into the setting: it adds to the setting as a whole and works within the boundaries of the setting, instead of trying to push those boundaries in a direction that most of the writers don't want. (An example of something that didn't work was the "Kemwer" stories from a few years ago. The stories were entertaining as standalone stories, but they weren't Fenspace stories.)
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